Newbie Modification Information
Nov 4, 2009 | 03:06 PM
#101
Nov 4, 2009 | 08:40 PM
#102
Thread Starter
Contributing Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,464
Likes: 6
From: Arvada, Colorado
Well, in the picture you quoted, the first two rigs ran all but the creek there in 2wd.
Course, both are linked front/rear, with 40+ tires, and lots o expensive gear.
Two dudes who know how to drive in the . I just tag along to learn.
Me, I drove in 4wd the whole way, mostly in 4.7:1, but the creek in 10.7:1
Course, both are linked front/rear, with 40+ tires, and lots o expensive gear.
Two dudes who know how to drive in the . I just tag along to learn.
Me, I drove in 4wd the whole way, mostly in 4.7:1, but the creek in 10.7:1
Nov 5, 2009 | 10:50 PM
#105
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: Bellingham -> Spokane, WA
This is a really helpful thread. When talking about buying a locking differential, I was really hoping someone would illuminate the question of front or rear first. I had this idea a while ago but don't do any serious offroading (in a car) and was curious if it was ridiculous or not:
I'm poor and don't "wheel" my 4runner but want the best possible snow traction and don't want to get stuck sinking into soggy grassy ditches in the country. Could I get away with an Aussie-Locker in the front only? I figured I could keep the drivability for the street but when I do engage the front diff. (ADD), i'd have the added benefit of a locker. Obviously i'd loose a lot of steering but I usually (95%) drive on a road, pavement or gravel forest service roads. I like to get into the mountains during winter to ski.
Thanks
I'm poor and don't "wheel" my 4runner but want the best possible snow traction and don't want to get stuck sinking into soggy grassy ditches in the country. Could I get away with an Aussie-Locker in the front only? I figured I could keep the drivability for the street but when I do engage the front diff. (ADD), i'd have the added benefit of a locker. Obviously i'd loose a lot of steering but I usually (95%) drive on a road, pavement or gravel forest service roads. I like to get into the mountains during winter to ski.
Thanks
Last edited by turbowhine; Nov 5, 2009 at 10:55 PM.
Nov 6, 2009 | 10:12 AM
#106
Thread Starter
Contributing Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,464
Likes: 6
From: Arvada, Colorado
I wouldn't recommend doing that. Lockers have quirky behavior in the snow when in the front end. The rear is pretty predictable and isn't too bad, but in the front, they can drag you around unexpectedly, and thats not a good thing on snowy/icy roads. At least, that was my experience when attempting to drive with my front ARB engaged.
Actually, your best bet for improved on road, snowy traction is a limited slip in the rear, or both.
I had a detroit tru trac for a couple of years, and, while it was abysmal offroad, when it was snowy driving around town, I found the truck was much more stable, and easy to drive in the slick stuff. I literally had to TRY to get it to kick out. Under normal driving, the truck simply would not lose the back end. I found it amazing.
Actually, your best bet for improved on road, snowy traction is a limited slip in the rear, or both.
I had a detroit tru trac for a couple of years, and, while it was abysmal offroad, when it was snowy driving around town, I found the truck was much more stable, and easy to drive in the slick stuff. I literally had to TRY to get it to kick out. Under normal driving, the truck simply would not lose the back end. I found it amazing.
Nov 6, 2009 | 11:50 AM
#107
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: Santa Fe County NM
01 3.4L V6 stock
After seeing a great many threads on here, I've decided to pitch in a thread that will hopefully help some of you newer guys out when you first start modifying your trucks.
Hopefully it will help you keep from making the same mistakes I did.
First of all, this is a post to try to help guys who want to modify their truck?s off-road performance, not so much for street cool looks. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with looking good, but looking good doesn't equal trail capability.
So, you've bought a 4x4 and you?d like to get some more off-road performance out of it. Awesome. Probably, you are thinking about a lift, right? Please forget about it.
Here is a saying that has been around the net for quite a while: What is cool on the internet or on the street is seldom what is cool on the trail.
The order of importance for different modifications on your truck is as follows.
1. Drivetrain
2. Armor
3. Tires
4. Suspension
Yes, suspension is the least important part of a truck. Why? Because they all accomplish the same thing, which is moving your tires over the terrain. They will get you about as far down the trail as stock. Granted, an otherwise stock truck that has been solid axle swapped with good flex will go farther than a stock IFS truck, but not a ton.
Sooooo, what I?m getting at here is hardware. Hardware makes your truck go. If you are looking to spend some money on a truck, your first consideration should be lockers. Perhaps you can only afford one for the rear, that is fine, get it. Gears are usually recommended when installing lockers, but it isn?t mandatory. If you decide to gear lower in the future, it will cost you an extra 200 for installation that you won?t have to pay if you have them done first off. But that is personal choice. It really depends on what size tire you want to run.
Gears are the next important step, as lower gearing means slower going on the trail. This gives you better control, better torque, and saves clutches. It also involves less ?slamming? up stuff by having to give the truck a lot of skinny pedal. This involves usually two important parts of the vehicle. Differential gearing involves replacing your ring and pinion gears in the differential itself, and is usually a balance of your on road performance with bigger tires. Larger tires will slow a truck down considerably. Regearing the diffs will allow you to keep a more stock feel while running a larger tire. The second step is regearing and/or doubling the transfer case. This provides a much greater ability to crawl or go slow on the trail. For example, a stock drive train (stock transfer case with a reduction of 2.28:1, manual transmission with a 3.95:1 first gear ration, and stock diff gears of 4.1:1) has a crawl ratio of 37:1. With doubled cases and gearing, trucks can get down to 225:1. It is a big difference. Again, benefits are control and less damage by being able to keep the speed down.
Next is armor. Usually, it is recommended that this be done fairly quickly after lockers and gears are installed, as increasing the difficulty of the trails you can drive up will increase the likelihood of body damage. Sliders, bumpers, and underbelly skid plates are all highly recommended. Get what fits your budget, but remember, with all things, you get what you pay for.
Tires are the next thing to look to. There are many threads about brands, sizes, etc. You can choose what you like best. Really, it?s about traction here. What type of wheeling do you see the most? Mud, sand, rocks? I recommend getting the largest size you can get with none, or minor rubbing. Minor rubbing usually occurs on the pinch welds in the fender, and can be easily pounded flat to gain the necessary clearance to eliminate rubbing, and does not affect the cosmetic look of the truck. Tires are the only real way to get ground clearance under your differentials. Lift will leave the axles in the same place as they were. Tires will get your diffs over rocks. In addition, it is important to get a tire that is going to take some abuse. Again, I refer you to the search function on that, so you can make your own decision on brand and genre of tire, as I?m as biased as the rest when it comes to tire choice.
Lastly, look to the suspension.
Here is the deal. If you have put in gearing, lockers, armor, and good tires on a truck, you will be able to drive most of the trails in your area, especially if you?ve ponied up for two lockers. If you have IFS, a suspension lift will get you bigger tires if you really start working your fenders with a sawzall and hammer, and a body lift will get you tires without the need for fender modification, but you?ll still have the crappy flex, and the other issues associated with IFS. Believe it or not, but IFS, especially the early (86-95) IFS, works best stock. No lift, no nothing. In fact, early IFS usually starts to puke steering parts with any sort of lift that changes the steering angles.
In invite you to look up TC, who is a member here. He has a 2nd gen 4runner, and simply has two ARB lockers, and a bunch of armor. No lift, and he runs a 33x1050 tire on it. Minor pinch weld modification and he runs these tires with little or no rubbing. With this set up, he is able to tackle the most difficult trails Colorado has to offer. Check out some of his videos. Now, TC is an AMAZING driver, but even a novice would be able to tackle most trails with the same set up.
If this has all been a jumble of words to you, here are the take home points.
If all you are looking for is to be able to go out and wheel trails with confidence and get up harder obstacles, DO NOT look to your suspension to help you there. Look to the stuff you can?t see.
If you want to look cool driving around town, and aren?t really concerned about getting any farther up the trail than you did before, you just want to look cool while doing it, then look to a lift and monster tires.
Questions are appreciated, post if you have em. Good luck with your builds.
Hopefully it will help you keep from making the same mistakes I did.
First of all, this is a post to try to help guys who want to modify their truck?s off-road performance, not so much for street cool looks. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with looking good, but looking good doesn't equal trail capability.
So, you've bought a 4x4 and you?d like to get some more off-road performance out of it. Awesome. Probably, you are thinking about a lift, right? Please forget about it.
Here is a saying that has been around the net for quite a while: What is cool on the internet or on the street is seldom what is cool on the trail.
The order of importance for different modifications on your truck is as follows.
1. Drivetrain
2. Armor
3. Tires
4. Suspension
Yes, suspension is the least important part of a truck. Why? Because they all accomplish the same thing, which is moving your tires over the terrain. They will get you about as far down the trail as stock. Granted, an otherwise stock truck that has been solid axle swapped with good flex will go farther than a stock IFS truck, but not a ton.
Sooooo, what I?m getting at here is hardware. Hardware makes your truck go. If you are looking to spend some money on a truck, your first consideration should be lockers. Perhaps you can only afford one for the rear, that is fine, get it. Gears are usually recommended when installing lockers, but it isn?t mandatory. If you decide to gear lower in the future, it will cost you an extra 200 for installation that you won?t have to pay if you have them done first off. But that is personal choice. It really depends on what size tire you want to run.
Gears are the next important step, as lower gearing means slower going on the trail. This gives you better control, better torque, and saves clutches. It also involves less ?slamming? up stuff by having to give the truck a lot of skinny pedal. This involves usually two important parts of the vehicle. Differential gearing involves replacing your ring and pinion gears in the differential itself, and is usually a balance of your on road performance with bigger tires. Larger tires will slow a truck down considerably. Regearing the diffs will allow you to keep a more stock feel while running a larger tire. The second step is regearing and/or doubling the transfer case. This provides a much greater ability to crawl or go slow on the trail. For example, a stock drive train (stock transfer case with a reduction of 2.28:1, manual transmission with a 3.95:1 first gear ration, and stock diff gears of 4.1:1) has a crawl ratio of 37:1. With doubled cases and gearing, trucks can get down to 225:1. It is a big difference. Again, benefits are control and less damage by being able to keep the speed down.
Next is armor. Usually, it is recommended that this be done fairly quickly after lockers and gears are installed, as increasing the difficulty of the trails you can drive up will increase the likelihood of body damage. Sliders, bumpers, and underbelly skid plates are all highly recommended. Get what fits your budget, but remember, with all things, you get what you pay for.
Tires are the next thing to look to. There are many threads about brands, sizes, etc. You can choose what you like best. Really, it?s about traction here. What type of wheeling do you see the most? Mud, sand, rocks? I recommend getting the largest size you can get with none, or minor rubbing. Minor rubbing usually occurs on the pinch welds in the fender, and can be easily pounded flat to gain the necessary clearance to eliminate rubbing, and does not affect the cosmetic look of the truck. Tires are the only real way to get ground clearance under your differentials. Lift will leave the axles in the same place as they were. Tires will get your diffs over rocks. In addition, it is important to get a tire that is going to take some abuse. Again, I refer you to the search function on that, so you can make your own decision on brand and genre of tire, as I?m as biased as the rest when it comes to tire choice.
Lastly, look to the suspension.
Here is the deal. If you have put in gearing, lockers, armor, and good tires on a truck, you will be able to drive most of the trails in your area, especially if you?ve ponied up for two lockers. If you have IFS, a suspension lift will get you bigger tires if you really start working your fenders with a sawzall and hammer, and a body lift will get you tires without the need for fender modification, but you?ll still have the crappy flex, and the other issues associated with IFS. Believe it or not, but IFS, especially the early (86-95) IFS, works best stock. No lift, no nothing. In fact, early IFS usually starts to puke steering parts with any sort of lift that changes the steering angles.
In invite you to look up TC, who is a member here. He has a 2nd gen 4runner, and simply has two ARB lockers, and a bunch of armor. No lift, and he runs a 33x1050 tire on it. Minor pinch weld modification and he runs these tires with little or no rubbing. With this set up, he is able to tackle the most difficult trails Colorado has to offer. Check out some of his videos. Now, TC is an AMAZING driver, but even a novice would be able to tackle most trails with the same set up.
If this has all been a jumble of words to you, here are the take home points.
If all you are looking for is to be able to go out and wheel trails with confidence and get up harder obstacles, DO NOT look to your suspension to help you there. Look to the stuff you can?t see.
If you want to look cool driving around town, and aren?t really concerned about getting any farther up the trail than you did before, you just want to look cool while doing it, then look to a lift and monster tires.
Questions are appreciated, post if you have em. Good luck with your builds.
I have a stock 01 4rnr, 3.4l v6, automatic trans, im looking to boot my potential trail capabilities, im trying to get more clearance and trail tenacity overall. ive been having trouble finding resources for tries to fit a 17" rim. the problem is that ive had is that most mud and all terrain tires are made for 15" and smaller wheels. the front and rean break assembly on my 4rnr will only allow for a 17" rim. I need advice either on adjusting front and rear breaking assemblies to allow the mounting of a smaller wheel, or preferably (probably cheaper) i am looking for advice on MT or AT tires that will fit my current wheels. any advice would be gratly appriciated.
Also, i am interested in discussing with you the how and where to find and install lockers on said 4rnr.
any other suggestions that you would have for me about modifications and parts that would help me would be great.
have a good one .
Nov 6, 2009 | 12:39 PM
#108
I have a stock 01 4rnr, 3.4l v6, automatic trans, im looking to boot my potential trail capabilities, im trying to get more clearance and trail tenacity overall. ive been having trouble finding resources for tries to fit a 17" rim. the problem is that ive had is that most mud and all terrain tires are made for 15" and smaller wheels. the front and rean break assembly on my 4rnr will only allow for a 17" rim. I need advice either on adjusting front and rear breaking assemblies to allow the mounting of a smaller wheel, or preferably (probably cheaper) i am looking for advice on MT or AT tires that will fit my current wheels. any advice would be gratly appriciated.
Also, i am interested in discussing with you the how and where to find and install lockers on said 4rnr.
any other suggestions that you would have for me about modifications and parts that would help me would be great.
have a good one .
Also, i am interested in discussing with you the how and where to find and install lockers on said 4rnr.
any other suggestions that you would have for me about modifications and parts that would help me would be great.
have a good one .
Nov 6, 2009 | 02:20 PM
#109
Thread Starter
Contributing Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,464
Likes: 6
From: Arvada, Colorado
There are less and less tire sizes being offered in the 15" size.
Most big tires are being offered in 17 and up.
Plenty of 33" tire sizes to go for as well.
A quick visit to BFG's site looking for tires for 17" rims shows 15 tire sizes in the AT line up, and 10 in the new KM2 line up. Quite a few in the 32-35 range.
For lockers, you need to find a Toyota 8" V6 locker for the rear, and a 7.5" for the front.
Not a lot of options for the front, but plenty for the rear. What sort of wheeling/highway use do you normally do?
Nov 10, 2009 | 12:33 PM
#111
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 260
Likes: 1
From: Pflugerville, Texas
quick question. I have 10.5 inch wide rims, and am wondering what width of tire will actually fit on my rims. I thought it would be the same as the rims, abut have recently heard otherwise.
Nov 10, 2009 | 12:54 PM
#112
- http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/specs...t-a-ko/44.html
Nov 11, 2009 | 07:16 AM
#113
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
From: San Jose, CA
I just got tires first 'cause I needed them bad. Now, I am going back to your#1 on the list: drivetrain. I will be going with air lockers in the rear first.
My question for everyone here is do you know of any good vendors (other than 4Wheel Parts) in the San Jose, CA area to buy stuff and get service work done...that is trustworthy and knowledgeable?
Anyone heard of Toy Connection in Santa Clara? I see them posting a lot in craigslist. http://toyconnection4x4.com/
My question for everyone here is do you know of any good vendors (other than 4Wheel Parts) in the San Jose, CA area to buy stuff and get service work done...that is trustworthy and knowledgeable?
Anyone heard of Toy Connection in Santa Clara? I see them posting a lot in craigslist. http://toyconnection4x4.com/
Nov 11, 2009 | 02:45 PM
#115
I just got tires first 'cause I needed them bad. Now, I am going back to your#1 on the list: drivetrain. I will be going with air lockers in the rear first.
My question for everyone here is do you know of any good vendors (other than 4Wheel Parts) in the San Jose, CA area to buy stuff and get service work done...that is trustworthy and knowledgeable?
Anyone heard of Toy Connection in Santa Clara? I see them posting a lot in craigslist. http://toyconnection4x4.com/
My question for everyone here is do you know of any good vendors (other than 4Wheel Parts) in the San Jose, CA area to buy stuff and get service work done...that is trustworthy and knowledgeable?
Anyone heard of Toy Connection in Santa Clara? I see them posting a lot in craigslist. http://toyconnection4x4.com/
Dec 24, 2009 | 07:02 AM
#116
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: Corapeake, NC
WHAT A GREAT POST!!
been a member for a long time, read more than i post! and have a few additional questions.
1. is there a site that can run a VIN and provide a build-sheet for that vehicle.
2. saw it earlier here, but not sure of the out come....totally stock 1993 p-up, 22re, except running 31x10.50's, think i have 4.10's, and don't plan on going bigger or lift. just meatier for mud on hunting trails and such. will the stock front axl's handle a 31x 11 or 12.50? like a superswamper. this is not a dd, but drive it locally and to the dump and stuff.
3. what ever the out come of #2, think logic says add a locker, do the front or rear first? Is there a factory locker for this truck.
Thanks in advance for the help, i'm sure to have more questions in the future!
been a member for a long time, read more than i post! and have a few additional questions.
1. is there a site that can run a VIN and provide a build-sheet for that vehicle.
2. saw it earlier here, but not sure of the out come....totally stock 1993 p-up, 22re, except running 31x10.50's, think i have 4.10's, and don't plan on going bigger or lift. just meatier for mud on hunting trails and such. will the stock front axl's handle a 31x 11 or 12.50? like a superswamper. this is not a dd, but drive it locally and to the dump and stuff.
3. what ever the out come of #2, think logic says add a locker, do the front or rear first? Is there a factory locker for this truck.
Thanks in advance for the help, i'm sure to have more questions in the future!
Dec 24, 2009 | 09:55 AM
#117
Thread Starter
Contributing Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,464
Likes: 6
From: Arvada, Colorado
1. Sorry, don't know. I don't even know what you mean by a "build sheet".
2. Front axles care more about diameter than width. Your steering is going to be the problem with wider tires. I've run 33's on stock fronts for years without any issues.
For steering, look at re reinforcing your idler arm with brass bushing from SDORI
http://www.sdori.com/SDORI_Products.html
and an idler arm brace, which some people have been able to get from north west offroad
http://www.northwestoffroad.com/part...omponents.html
Some have issues with contacting them, so best to call.
IIRC, both items are in the 70 dollar range.
3. Rear first, find a toyota e-locker if you want a cheap, yet selectable option.
2. Front axles care more about diameter than width. Your steering is going to be the problem with wider tires. I've run 33's on stock fronts for years without any issues.
For steering, look at re reinforcing your idler arm with brass bushing from SDORI
http://www.sdori.com/SDORI_Products.html
and an idler arm brace, which some people have been able to get from north west offroad
http://www.northwestoffroad.com/part...omponents.html
Some have issues with contacting them, so best to call.
IIRC, both items are in the 70 dollar range.
3. Rear first, find a toyota e-locker if you want a cheap, yet selectable option.
Dec 24, 2009 | 10:32 AM
#118
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: Corapeake, NC
a build sheet is a report that lists all factory specs & options, as VIN.
as far as the locker goes, by "cheap" you do mean "inexpensive" not quality, right?
what about a full spool? it looks from the pics at 4WP tha the ring gear bolts to it. this makes it posi all the time?
is this a bad thing?
as far as the locker goes, by "cheap" you do mean "inexpensive" not quality, right?
what about a full spool? it looks from the pics at 4WP tha the ring gear bolts to it. this makes it posi all the time?
is this a bad thing?
Last edited by elkdog; Dec 24, 2009 at 11:02 AM.
Dec 24, 2009 | 11:45 AM
#119
I'll go out on a limb here and say that Ike means inexpensive as the Toyota factory e locker is generally very well regarded in the 4wd community. I'll play devils advocate though, in that actually getting an e lock in your truck properly is not an inexpensive proposition.
here is a write up of a retro fit to your generation of truck to give you an idea of what is involved.
http://www.sonoransteel.com/phong/re...ic_locker.html
In addition, many folks with e lockers to sell, place a rather high price on them. That said, if you can do some fab yourself and get lucky finding a lower priced e locker (it does happen sometimes) it is a great alternative to get a selectable locker.
On the spool, you are right in that the axle will be "locked up" all the time. This will cause some additional wear on tires and likely make handling a bit unpredictable in ice and snow should you find yourself in those conditions. On the upside they are cheap, strong, and simple. For the uses you have described, hunting, dump trips, etc, it would not be a terrible choice. Try to read up on them a bit more to see if you think you can live with the characteristics of a spool.
here is a write up of a retro fit to your generation of truck to give you an idea of what is involved.
http://www.sonoransteel.com/phong/re...ic_locker.html
In addition, many folks with e lockers to sell, place a rather high price on them. That said, if you can do some fab yourself and get lucky finding a lower priced e locker (it does happen sometimes) it is a great alternative to get a selectable locker.
On the spool, you are right in that the axle will be "locked up" all the time. This will cause some additional wear on tires and likely make handling a bit unpredictable in ice and snow should you find yourself in those conditions. On the upside they are cheap, strong, and simple. For the uses you have described, hunting, dump trips, etc, it would not be a terrible choice. Try to read up on them a bit more to see if you think you can live with the characteristics of a spool.
Dec 24, 2009 | 12:41 PM
#120
Thread Starter
Contributing Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,464
Likes: 6
From: Arvada, Colorado
Spool is not a great option for a street truck. It'll be great off road, but will wear your rear tires REALLY fast. You will chirp tires on every turn.
I meant inexpensive, for a selectable. Around here, they go for 400 bucks for a 4.10. Give or take.
You do have to modify the housing, but its not that expensive, IMO. Cut and weld a little, buy a couple studs, and voilla! Locker.
Selectable lockers are nice because you have full open on the street, and full spool on the trail.
They are the best of both worlds.
If you are looking for uber cheap, then get an aussie locker. They are nice, they do ratchet, and will help you out offroad.
I meant inexpensive, for a selectable. Around here, they go for 400 bucks for a 4.10. Give or take.
You do have to modify the housing, but its not that expensive, IMO. Cut and weld a little, buy a couple studs, and voilla! Locker.
Selectable lockers are nice because you have full open on the street, and full spool on the trail.
They are the best of both worlds.
If you are looking for uber cheap, then get an aussie locker. They are nice, they do ratchet, and will help you out offroad.
