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Old 06-11-2017, 01:39 PM   #41
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ABSOLUTELY DO NOT EVER BYPASS THE STARTER RELAY. Like I always emphasize. Toyota components are usually bullet-proof. Problem arises fro poor wiring (including FROM THE FACTORY) or poor assembly job.

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I agree! I was thinking about actually removing the factory wire from the Relay socket
Do not butcher your wiring. IT MAY VERY WELL BE DONE WRONG AT THE FACTORY. LET'S VERIFY AND FIX WHAT THE FACTORY DID WRONG, IF IT DID.

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...The wires off the back of the Starter Relay socket match the color code of the wiring diagram posted earlier with: first pin/wire (Black) going to Ignition Switch, second pin/wire (Black) going to Ignition Switch, third pin/wire (Black-Red/Black-Red) two wires going to Clutch pedal switch and Clutch Cancel switch, and fourth pin/wire (Black-White) going to Starter, Cold start injector, and Start Injector time switch.

Please help me help you here. Where on the picture is the 1st wire? the second wire? the 3rd wire?
Please post picture of where each pin of the relay goes into the socket.

Too many posts on intermittent starts. PM me when you have done so. Then, I'll tell you where to probe.

Last edited by RAD4Runner; 06-11-2017 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 06-11-2017, 01:43 PM   #42
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I agree! I was thinking about actually removing the factory wire from the Relay socket and crimping on a new wire so I wouldn't have to cut or splice anything. I think the next step would be to test voltage and continuity on each wire coming off the Relay Socket, but that would require a second person (so I can measure and read the multi-meter when turning the ignition. I may not have fixed it yet, but I think we've canceled out a good number of variables.
I would use automatic wire strippers, and solder a wire on the existing factory wire, whichever you want though. Good luck man!
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Old 06-11-2017, 01:51 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by RAD4Runner View Post
ABSOLUTELY DO NOT EVER BYPASS THE STARTER RELAY. Like I always emphasize. Toyota components are usually bullet-proof. Problem arises fro poor wiring (including FROM THE FACTORY) or poor assembly job.


Do not butcher your wiring. IT MAY VERY WELL BE DONE WRONG AT THE FACTORY. LET'S VERIFY AND FIX WHAT THE FACTORY DID WRONG, IF IT DID.



Please help me help you here. Where on the picture is the 1st wire? the second wire? the 3rd wire?
Please post picture of where each pin of the relay goes into the socket.

Too many posts on intermittent starts. PM me when you have done so. Then, I'll tell you where to probe.
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Old 06-11-2017, 01:58 PM   #44
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:19 PM   #45
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FWIW, I've seen RAD help out a number of guys here with electrical and other issues including my intermittent starting problem.
He knows of what he speaks.
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:26 PM   #46
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FWIW, I've seen RAD help out a number of guys here with electrical and other issues including my intermittent starting problem.
He knows of what he speaks.

I've noticed from other threads. He's like the YotaTech wizard.
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Old 06-12-2017, 09:25 AM   #47
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Check for proper wiring of starter relay

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COOL! (Pls triple-check, including my work, in case I missed anything.)
The following will verify whether your starter relay is wired properly or not.
CAVEAT: Even if wired properly, the location of relay still creates a very long wire run, not ideal. Adding a starter relay physically between the battery and the starter would be the BEST solution. See my thread to see how.

CHECK FOR 12VOLTS TO SEE IF RELAY IS WIRED PROPERLY:


TEST IF CLUTCH SAFETY SWITCH IS CLOSING OR CLUTCH SAFETY CANCEL IS WORKING


WIRE RUN IN 1991 TOYOTA 4RUNNER, 22RE, MANUAL:


WIRE RUN IN PROPERLY-WIRED (MODIFIED FROM STOCK) 1986-1988 TOYOTA 4RUNNER,22RE, MANUAL (Or truck retrofitted with proper starter relay and wiring, including Hotshot):


I hope this is clear enough.
With your known good starter solenoid and starter motor function, fixing this upstream issue WILL solve your intermittent no-crank.

Last edited by RAD4Runner; 06-13-2017 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 06-14-2017, 11:20 AM   #48
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Thank you RAD4Runner! This really clears things up and this is exactly what I was looking for. I should have time this weekend to test all wires coming off the Starter Relay socket.
So, how would I check if the starter is getting enough current from the Black-White wire coming off the Starter Relay socket (with relay installed)? Is there a know voltage threshold when the starter will not fully activate the starter motor? It seems if my battery voltage is below 12.3V it's likely to click the solenoid, but not quite enough juice to turn the starter motor. I really appreciate your time and assistance with this.
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Old 06-14-2017, 01:24 PM   #49
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...So, how would I check if the starter is getting enough current from the Black-White wire coming off the Starter Relay socket (with relay installed)? Is there a know voltage threshold ....
Hard to tell threshold, but you can PUT IN NEUTRAL, then probe the back to the brown connector while doing this
Then, still in neutral, try to crank normally and probe same.
Compare voltges.
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Old 06-16-2017, 02:28 PM   #50
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Red face Troubleshooting Update!

Finally got a chance to get back to the 4Runner project. This is what I found..
edit: Wasn't confident on my test ground so I setup off the negative post of the battery using jumper cables see updated results in BOLD RED.

Battery Voltage: 12.55V (tested at 12.60V second time for some reason)
1.) BLK 12.22V (Only when Ignition is turned to the Start position) NOTE: Relay was pulled for this test.
edit: Got 12.18V with battery negative test.
2.) BLK 12.22V (Only when Ignition is turned to the Start position) NOTE: Relay was pulled for this test.
edit: Got 12.18V with battery negative test.
3.) BLK-WHT ?V When Relay Clicks (I got voltage during the Relay click, not enough time for a reading) NOTE: Relay was in for this test.
4.) BLK-RED This circuit received ground once the Clutch Start Cancel switch was pressed with the Ignition in the ON position (11.73V, 11.99V w/ battery neg.) and also received ground when the Clutch pedal was pressed with Ignition in the ON position (12.15V, 12.55V w/ battery neg.). NOTE: I got 12.55V with Clutch Pedal pressed and Ignition turned OFF.

Hope this helps. With the battery charged to 12.55V, the vehicle starts right up every time.

Last edited by JPL; 06-16-2017 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 06-16-2017, 03:31 PM   #51
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Good job!
(Fraction of a volt batt voltage variation at the test points are fine)

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1.) BLK 12.22V (Only when Ignition is turned to the Start position) NOTE: Relay was pulled for this test.
2.) BLK 12.22V (Only when Ignition is turned to the Start position) NOTE: Relay was pulled for this test.
The above in red means that your starter relay is also wired wrong according to below. It can be rewired to fix it. However, considering the tight work space behind the kick panel (requires acrobatics - LOL!) AND because of the length of wire run as shown on my diagram above which causes lots of power loss, AN ADDITIONAL RELAY PLACED PHYSICALLY BETWEEN THE BATTERY AND THE STARTER WOULD BE THE SIMPLEST AND MOST RELIABLE SOLUTION. Procedure is outlined HERE


Last edited by RAD4Runner; 07-07-2017 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 06-16-2017, 03:44 PM   #52
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Question

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Originally Posted by RAD4Runner View Post
Good job!
(Faction of a volt batt voltage variation at the test points are fine)


The above in red means that your starter relay is also wired wrong according to below. It can be rewired to fix it. However, considering the tight work space behind the kick panel (requires acrobatics - LOL!) AND because of the length of wire run as shown on my diagram above which causes lots of power loss, AN ADDITIONAL RELAY PLACED PHYSICALLY BETWEEN THE BATTERY AND THE STARTER WOULD BE THE SIMPLEST AND MOST RELIABLE SOLUTION. Procedure is outlined here.

Because my Starter Relay is different than the one in your thread about bypassing the factory setup... is this correct??
1=30 (BLK)
2=86 (BLK)
3=87 (BLK-WHT)
4=85 (BLK-RED)
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Old 06-16-2017, 04:21 PM   #53
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I know this may be a little dumb to say and from what you have said the the skimming I read but my truck had the same problem. It would start fine most of the time but once I stopped and cut it off to get gas or something it wouldn't start. I replaced starter and It would work fine for a few weeks then same problem. Then I replaced the alternator fixed it for a few weeks then same problem. Then a new battery fine for a few weeks and same problem. I ended up doing the big three wiring upgrade with 2gauge wire and replacing the wire to the starter with 4gauge wire and wrapping the starter in heat wrap to prevent it from getting to hot. But after doing all that it starts up fine every time now. May not fix the problem but worth a shot since it's not too expensive and just another way to give you piece of mind.
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:17 AM   #54
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I know this may be a little dumb to say and from what you have said the the skimming I read but my truck had the same problem. It would start fine most of the time but once I stopped and cut it off to get gas or something it wouldn't start. I replaced starter and It would work fine for a few weeks then same problem. Then I replaced the alternator fixed it for a few weeks then same problem. Then a new battery fine for a few weeks and same problem. I ended up doing the big three wiring upgrade with 2gauge wire and replacing the wire to the starter with 4gauge wire and wrapping the starter in heat wrap to prevent it from getting to hot. But after doing all that it starts up fine every time now. May not fix the problem but worth a shot since it's not too expensive and just another way to give you piece of mind.
It's not dumb at all. My issue followed the same pattern as yours did, I just didn't replace my alternator. Once I know for sure how to approach this upgrade on my '91 Toyota 4Runner, I plan on relocating the relay and going to 12-10 gauge wire between the ignition, relay, starter, battery, ground. I'm thinking about going with the older style relay so I can follow RAD4Runner's thread as exact as possible. What year/type of vehicle did you do your upgrade on? For the first time in 3 years and after nearly $900 later, I feel I'm making real progress with this issue the Toyota dealership couldn't even fix.
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:28 PM   #55
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... it wouldn't start.]
start as in crank where starter motor turns the engine? or combustion when you hear, smell, feel the VROOM!?
It would help us help you if you told us what model-year-engine-transmission we're talking about.

Quote:
I replaced starter and It would work fine for a few weeks then same problem. Then I replaced the alternator fixed it for a few weeks then same problem. Then a new battery fine for a few weeks and same problem. ...
Toyota parts are bullet-proof the problem often lies in the way they are wired or put together.

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...after doing all that it starts up fine every time now. May not fix the problem but worth a shot since it's not too expensive and just another way to give you piece of mind.
I have a feeling that you have the starter relay problem present in many 80's to 91 Toyota trucks. Combination of smooth starter solenoid operation, healthy battery, etc can mask it.

Last edited by RAD4Runner; 06-21-2017 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 06-20-2017, 02:56 PM   #56
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Quote:
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Because my Starter Relay is different than the one in your thread about bypassing the factory setup... is this correct??
1=30 (BLK)
2=86 (BLK)
3=87 (BLK-WHT)
4=85 (BLK-RED)
Above are correct, except that pin numbering (1 thru 4) may not always be same from one vehicle to another, AND need to add more details:
"30, 85,86 and 87" is the more consistent pin numbering. General-purpose automotive relays use this scheme.

Best to ohm-out relay and see which pin goes into pins socket.

One of the black wires should be:
30 (BLK) - This is the load supply. Should always have 12V. This is connected directly to fuse then battery.
86 (BLK) - This is the control coil positive. Only gets 12V when IGN sw is turned to Start position.

87 (BLK-WHT) - This is the normally open contact. This is connected to the load. with relay plugged in, this only gets 12V when relay clicks.
There should be no continuity between 30 and 87 when relay is not energized. When relay is energized (clicks), there should be zero ohm between the two.

Control Coil pins:
85 (BLK-RED) - This is the control coil ground.
There should be a several ohms resistance between this and pin 86.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:41 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAD4Runner View Post
Above are correct, except that pin numbering (1 thru 4) may not always be same from one vehicle to another, AND need to add more details:
"30, 85,86 and 87" is the more consistent pin numbering. General-purpose automotive relays use this scheme.

Best to ohm-out relay and see which pin goes into pins socket.

One of the black wires should be:
30 (BLK) - This is the load supply. Should always have 12V. This is connected directly to fuse then battery.
86 (BLK) - This is the control coil positive. Only gets 12V when IGN sw is turned to Start position.

87 (BLK-WHT) - This is the normally open contact. This is connected to the load. with relay plugged in, this only gets 12V when relay clicks.
There should be no continuity between 30 and 87 when relay is not energized. When relay is energized (clicks), there should be zero ohm between the two.

Control Coil pins:
85 (BLK-RED) - This is the control coil ground.
There should be a several ohms resistance between this and pin 86.
That makes sense. Going with a different Starter Relay would be the way to go.
Also, Here's a view of my Passenger side inner finder... hope this gives you a good idea of how the retro-fit will work on my '91 Toyota 4Runner. Let me know if you need more pictures.

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Old 06-20-2017, 08:20 PM   #58
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I had this happen a few years ago. had to hit the starter with a hammer then it would work. And talked to a guy that said. Take off the wire that goes to the starter and the battery ground and sand to clean up the grounds and the contact points. After I did that I never had a problem with it again.
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:20 AM   #59
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...had to hit the starter with a hammer then it would work. And talked to a guy that said. Take off the wire that goes to the starter and the battery ground and sand to clean up the grounds and the contact points. After I did that I never had a problem with it again.
P.O. SAID...
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... I tried tapping on the starter motor with no luck....
littleblue4runner,
May we know what year, engine and transmission do you have?
Good, clean connections would always help. It may also mask the problem caused by starter relay wired wrong at the factory.


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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post


Here's a page from my factory manual
[email protected],
Thanks again for this. This is specifically from schematic for your "90 Toyota Hilux SR5 Extended cab, 3.0 V6 with a manual tranny", correct?

Last edited by RAD4Runner; 06-21-2017 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 06-22-2017, 04:30 AM   #60
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Optional locations for mounting the Relay.
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