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cr@ves4wheelin,
Thanks again for this. This is specifically from schematic for your "90 Toyota Hilux SR5 Extended cab, 3.0 V6 with a manual tranny", correct?
Starter Relay Retrofit Kit, assembled, installed and tested on #rad4runner
100% plug-and-play into 1984 to 1991 Trucks and MoreFunners. Absolutely no wire cutting, crimping, nor soldering necessary. (Need to verify mechanical fit - length of wires, etc for other years)
Just received and installed the Start Relay Retrofit kit (designed and built by RAD4Runner). Here's me testing it out as soon as I got it installed (took only 10 minutes to install, by the way). I plan on switching to the factory setup till I get my "no-start, clicking" issue so I can document that the relay kit actually works.
I rarely get a chance to really drive my 4Runner (more than a few miles every other week), but I make a point start it every week or so. Since I installed the relay kit I haven't noticed any issues till I really started driving it again...
UPDATE: I want to start by saying the relay kit works great and I have had no issues with the kit itself. I believe there's an issue with my vehicle that might not be related to the relay/wiring between the starter/ignition/battery. The couple times I have had the "no crank, no start" issue recently I have tried switching between the new relay kit and the OEM setup with no change or correction to the issue.
As a sort of workaround I have installed a battery disconnect to help prevent the no crank, no start issue from coming up. The battery disconnect was installed years ago when I first started experiencing this issue. What I typically do is.. when I store or park my 4runner I disconnect the battery with the battery disconnect key I have installed inside the vehicle (99 times out of 100 this works to keep from experiencing the no crank, no start issue). History recap: I have replaced the; starter, battery, and relay with wiring (the new battery has been tested and passed load test, the starter has been replaced 3 times in the past 2 years all Toyota OEM starters). I noticed that the problem seems more common when the vehicle is very hot (i.e. long trip to the valley when it's over 105 (f) outside). When the voltage drops below 12.2V it's likely to happen. Most Recent incident: The other day I drove my 4Runner 15 miles to the movie theater (the outside temp was about 50 (f) and it started right up). I forgot to disconnect my battery via disconnect switch and when I got back to my vehicle it wouldn't start (just a click every time I tried to start it... about 30 times). My son and mom were with me so I had my mom turn the key while I tapped on the starter and it worked as I have done a few times in the past (along with bump starting). When it did finally start it started right up without any indication the battery was low.
I'm trying to think back and find when this started and what changes I might have made before this started happening (because this was never an issue until maybe 2014 and I bought this vehicle in 2011.. so not one time did I experience a no crank, no start). It doesn't help that this vehicle has had electrical issues since day one (mainly with the window/auto lock).. I feel like I might as well replace the key ignition system since that's the only thing I haven't tried at this point. I may not drive this vehicle every day, but I'm determined to fix this problem 100%... other than this issue, my 4runner is extremely reliable.
Things working properly by using battery disconnect would mean you have current drain that discharges your battery.
Before cranking, please check battery voltage AT TERMINAL, not battery post, without load. Then battery voltage with high beams and all possible loads on.
I lost track of how you isolated other things...
1) When you experience the problem, does C.O.R. always click?
2) Does starter solenoid always click energetically?
3) Does the stock starter relay always click? If it does but not the solenoid, then there could be a problem with the wire that goes from that and the solenoid.
4) Have you tried always using the clutch safety cancel, instead of stepping on clutch?
5) Have you tried bypassing clutch cancel switch?
6) Have you checked battery to engine block cable (below)? If that connection is bad, starter solenoid may still energize but there would not be enough current to turn the starter motor.
Back to (3), IF we could find the exact schematic to your truck, we may be able to directly wire control input of stock starter relay to control input of our retrofit relay. Simple matter of using a jumper wire. Clean and robust fix to Toyota's fault.
Every time I get the no crank, no start issue I do get a solid, strong Solenoid click every time. I kept my battery connected for a little over 24 hours and the voltage stayed consistent without dropping below 12.38V. I tried starting it about an hour ago and got the solenoid "Click" and no starter crank.. I was still at 12.38V.. I got my camera setup to record the issue with the volt-meter setup to show it was happening at a good voltage level and it started right up.. I was not able to duplicate it after that one failed "no crank, no start".
I located the main ground cable to the passenger side motor mount. I removed the bolt to file the surface of the connector and motor mount where the washer sits to make a good, solid contact. I torqued the bolt back on and it still starts every time. It's so annoying when you have a problem you can't duplicate.
I have not used the clutch safety cancel button, but I will try seeing if it makes a difference next time it doesn't want to start and see if bypassing it makes a difference.
I think little by little we're chipping away at this problem by process of elimination. I'm sure this phantom issue will eventually go away. Thank you for your time and patience Ray. I will keep you posted as I will have more time this week to mess with the 4Runner.
Cool.
Hard to troubleshoot but rewarding when we figure it out.
Solenoid not clicking at all or not energetically may be caused by clutch switch, or clutch safety cancel not working properly, OR power loss along the line - that we have already addressed with relay retrofit.
Solenoid clicking energetically with known good contacts but no crank is most likely, connection between battery and starter - both thick positive and negative cables. You can "see" this
IF you monitor voltage AT BATTERY POSTS THEMSELVES (not at terminal). Compare voltage it cranks and when it does not crank.
Merry Christmas!
FWIW, when I added a starter relay per Rad4's instructions my starting problem (very similar to what you've gone through) my problem ended. Only difference is my older pickup never had a relay to begin with.
...when I added a starter relay ... starting problem ended.
Tnx!
Adding a starter relay or fixing wrong wiring of starter relay fixes the problem where starter solenoid does not click or does not click energetically. JPL's problem puzzles me, too, because now his solenoid always clicks energetically but motor does not crank.
More complete list of possible causes:
1) Poor connection from battery positive, thick battery cable and positive side of starter (load input of starter solenoid contact)
2) Poor connection fro battery negative to thick cable to engine block to mounting of starter.
3) Last thing I could think of is mechanical obstruction. Could it be possible that something in the the way starter gear meshes with flywheel stops the solenoid plunger from moving completely? So, while solenoid actuates with full power (hence the energetic sound/feel), it stops moving before contacts close.
This could be the most puzzling issue I've seen this year...
Second only to below... LOL!
Last edited by RAD4Runner; 12-25-2017 at 10:54 AM.
Adding a starter relay or fixing wrong wiring of starter relay fixes the problem where starter solenoid does not click or does not click energetically. JPL's problem puzzles me, too, because now his solenoid always clicks energetically but motor does not crank.
More complete list of possible causes:
1) Poor connection from battery positive, thick battery cable and positive side of starter (load input of starter solenoid contact)
2) Poor connection fro battery negative to thick cable to engine block to mounting of starter.
3) Last thing I could think of is mechanical obstruction. Could it be possible that something in the the way starter gear meshes with flywheel stops the solenoid plunger from moving completely? So, while solenoid actuates with full power (hence the energetic sound/feel), it stops moving before contacts close.
This could be the most puzzling issue I've seen this year...
Second only to below... LOL!
Re # 1) and 2) Poor connections. As I understand it the JPL has checked all the connections in the starting circuit.
Re # 3) Last thing I could think of is mechanical obstruction. Could it be possible that something in the the way starter gear meshes with flywheel stops the solenoid plunger from moving completely? So, while solenoid actuates with full power (hence the energetic sound/feel), it stops moving before contacts close.
Could it be possible yes, perhaps when the new starter was installed. But with the system being more energetic you would think that would now be overcome.
As far as the evidence bag is concerned - the bloody hammer tells an ugly story.
By page 2 I kept thinking bad ground. I've never seen a toyota with bad grounds yet, but low battery voltage suggests to me that it's not charging fully. The battery should be reading 12.6v+ after sitting a day (no draw). Right after running, the battery voltage will have a higher voltage, but will drop quickly after an hour or so the voltage is a good indication of what charge state the battery is in. Since every time I've seen a battery voltage reading along side the start problem, it has always been a bit low. Maybe the truck sits too long between uses, or isn't drove far enough to charge the battery for what was used to start it.
If your battery drains fast on it's own it could be a bad battery (internal short/drain) or your truck has a draw. You mentioned before you had a mechanic check for draws and found one and no others, so It might just be the battery by this point. If jumping your truck with another vehicle 100% always works, I'd point at the battery voltage too low being a primary cause. Also the relay built into the starter has heavy contacts with a plunger, low voltage usage where it doesn't make good connection will burn the contacts. 90% of the time those contacts are the only issue when the starter goes bad and replacing them is like $15 + your time.
It might be a pain to do, but I'd do a voltage test to the starter though the wires and try to find poor connections, or high resistant sections in the wires. You should get close to battery voltage from battery negative to starter positive (big wire that runs to the battery). If it's not very close to the same voltage, replace it. Same thing with the ground wire, positive on battery positive, negative on engine block (clean spot). Voltage can be a little lower since it's a higher resistant circuit (steel), but still should be very close. If it's a large difference, battery neg to engine might be a poor connection or bad wire. This is only looking at the high current side of things, I'd have to dig though the wire diagrams to find the ground points for the relay system.
How much of your wiring has been hacked up by the last owner and any idea what they were tapping into besides trying to get the power windows to work?
Also on the wire length thing, if the wire is sized properly, the resistance will be low enough to not cause much of a voltage drop. That's how power companies can run miles of power wire with out issue (high voltage + large enough wire).
I suspect after you validate all your high current circuits have good connection to the battery, the battery still load tests good and is fully charged that you won't have any starting issues assuming the connection in the starter isn't burned too badly.
Your situation is a little different than mine, but if I was in your shoes, I'd carry a spare battery or a jump pack so when the battery is low, I'd have a battery backup to still get going.
To touch a little on the draw on the system, you disconnect the positive terminal on your battery and run your multi meter in between the battery positive and the positive terminal while in amp reading mod (generally 10amp max). Don't turn they key on or try to start while it's hooked up or you'll blow a fuse in your multi meter. After 5 minutes or so the draw should be in the ma range somewhere around 20-40ma if I remember right (my dad works on cars, I have 2nd hand knowledge). A draw enough to kill your battery would be 100ma+. If you do in fact have a high draw, you pull fuses one at a time to check for a change. The ECU and radio are the "normal" devices to draw for their memory, everything else shouldn't effect it. If none of the fuses seem to change it much, then it's possible it could be the alternator (unplug it and check for a change, if nothing, then remove the bolted on cable, but leave the battery unhooked so no oops moments and with it insulated safely reset for the draw). Not sure off hand what else would cause a draw except maybe a stuck relay.
Another thing that I've seen mentioned but no one has mentioned about a test on would be the ignition switch. A pretty simple test would be to check the resistance on the ignition switch between pins 4 and 1 with the key at start. Should be near 0 ohms, if it's 25+ ohms I'd say replace the ignition switch (ohm number I pulled out of thin air, not sure if there's a true "spec" for it generally it's high resistance or it's good).
Here's some wire diagrams proper for your machine (1991 4Runner), these are from Toyota TIS. The starter relay is wired "wrong" where the power source of the relay is from the ignition switch, more ideal would be direct from battery positive to not stress (burn) the ignition switch contacts. Also just noticed the clutch cancel uses the 2nd internal switch, so if you have the start problems with both the normal way to start (clutch in) and clutch cancel, then I'd think the ignition switch is fine since it would be rare for both contacts to be bad inside. Power source from the AM1 fuse would be a common thing though. Anyway, here's the diagrams.
Update 5/8/2018: I had an oil leak at the top end of the engine and took my time replacing the valve cover gasket.. so it sat for about a month without starting. When I finally tried starting it I would get the typical click no start every time. I tested the battery voltage and it was about 12.48V (I've had it start at 12.3V so I know the battery voltage wasn't the issue this time). I switched back and forth between the Starter relay bypass kit and factory setup with no result or change.
I setup my battery tender and charged the battery with my battery disconnect setup (battery isolated) for a few days. I just tested it today and at 12.8V it still wouldn't start and I would just get a single, solid click from the starter solenoid every time. I switched back and forth between the starter relay kit and OEM setup and after switching to the OEM setup it started right up, then a second time, then a third time. I switched back to the Starter relay bypass kit and it wouldn't start again.. I switch back to the OEM setup again and it wouldn't start again. then I switched it two more times and back on the OEM setup for the 6th time or so and it started right up! (THIS IS ALL DOCUMENTED ON A YOUTUBE VIDEO I'M CURRENTLY UPLOADING AND WILL COPY TO THIS TREAD).
After reading the post above by atcfixer, I'm thinking there could be something strange going on with my ignition switch.. maybe something to do with a bad wiring or contact. At this point the ignition switch is just about the only thing I haven't tried. The video is about 8 minutes long an shows almost everything. I would like to know if I should definitely consider the Ignition switch at this point as I'm basically using process of elimination. Electrical is not my strong suite and this has been going on for quite some time.. the Toyota dealership can't even figure it out. It seemed to be fixed for a few months after putting in 3 starters.. I though maybe the contacts, brushes, plunger of the starter? If it wasn't replaced and rebuilt multiple times I would totally look into it, but if there is an issue with the starter it's being caused by something other than the starter it's self.
I just noticed it has been exactly 3 years since I started this tread! I think this would make for a great Toyota technician bug fix challenge! My uncle is a retired BMW mechanic with over 30 year's of experience and would be selected to compete in Germany where they setup these nearly impossible challenges so they can find the best BMW technician in the world and give you a chance to win various prizes. One year he got second and won a brand new (at the time) BMW Z3.
With that said, I will give a very special prize to the individual that properly identifies the issue and helps permanently corrects the issue once and for all!
Pretty sure that's the correct part, atleast it looks like a toyota pickup one.
@OP
You could test the ignition switch with a multi meter when it's messing up by back probing the connection. Even a test light would work for this test. Ground one lead, and the other would go to the Black/Yellow wire, should have power with it switched to ON if I'm reading it correctly. Black wire should get power when you're trying to start. If the switch is working correctly while it's messing up, it's not the switch.
If you want to just replace parts and get the repair over with, replace the ignition switch, buy a new starter relay, and maybe if none of them work give the clutch switch a shot. Assuming all the wiring is good, one of those things should fix it. Pretty sure all of those parts combined is under $100.
Also small FYI, dealerships, and really any mechanic shop has some people that know what they are doing, and other's that are just there to get a pay check and really have no clue or have a care in the world about your vehicle. My dad's worked around them for all his life. Dealerships have the upper hand since they have a lot better access to info than the average mechanic shop, but sadly the worker has to know how to use the info presented to take advantage of it.
If you or someone can confirm if this is the part, I have a short Ign harness available - see pic.
Where in Northern AZ are you?
I'm in Show Low, AZ 85901. I'll try gaining access to the ignition switch to verify if that part looks similar. Is there any numbers that we can cross reference? At least a close up of the front and back of the main connector to compare? I'm leaning towards the Ignition switch and really want to try it! Thanks.
@atcfixer
I completely agree. I would like to find the cause by running tests across the circuits, but at this point I just want to fix it.. I think replacing one part at a time is as far as I'll go.. I don't want to take the shotgun approach and swap all the parts and not know exactly what fixed it. I worked for BMW for 5 years and totally agree with you on the quality of the dealership. Some of them have master mechanics and old timers who know the older cars inside and out, but for the most part you have kids that knock out warranty work and recalls for quick easy hours. They said they had their best mechanic on it.. I have a feeling they tell everyone that.
Yea, if they go out of their way to say their "best" mechanic is working on something, that's a salesman just saying what he thinks you want to hear. That's a red flag for me, because I hate BS. Unless they are legit saying this one guy is their #1 worker, which would piss off the other workers, but I really doubt that unless they have like an employee of the month type of thing or something.
Ironically, I'm working with a million electrical problems on a city beater Lexus LS400 my cousin just bought. Everything the guy touched has missing bolts/screw, hacked wire jobs. So far all electrical problems has been the cause of the owner/shop that did the work. It's been a fun project so far and he got the car pretty cheap and I have a clone of the car for a parts car. The Lexus is 2-3 times more complicated electrically than the Toyota pickups/4runners lol. The seat even has an ECU (well from the parts car it does).
Anyway, good luck, hopefully it is the ignition switch, but now that I've looked at it again, It doesn't seem like the starter relay would kick if the ignition was messing up. Also that ignition switch photoed above looks just like my T100 one, pretty sure the part interchanges between most Toyota pickup/4runners. The plug would be the same on them atleast. Even the camry is similar, but the housing is built different and such.
JPL,
I believe you meant to say that every time you try to crank the solenoid absolutely always clicks energetically, but sometimes starter does not crank?
Then ignition switch is good.
Earlier, I suggested you check the thick battery positive to starter solenoid stud terminal cable (below). Did you?
Since so much time has passed since the problem first surfaced, it might be a good idea to start fresh with the diagnosis. You never know, what checked out fine a few years ago may not check out fine now.
All electrical circuits start and end at the battery. Are you 100% sure the battery is good? Just because it can show a good voltage doesn't mean it can handle the amperage required by the starter. Many repeated quick starts without the vehicle charging the battery by just driving it can be hard on a battery.
Does your battery still have the drain if it is left hooked up overnight? If so, this will need to be investigated too.
Your video shows the dash lights dim when the key is turned to the START position, so there is at least some current draw in your system as verified by the clicking sounds of the relays.
I would look back at RAD4Runner's post above about the Positive cable from the battery to the starter as well as the Negative cable from the block to the battery . Check the connections at the battery, starter, and engine block. Don't forget the starter to block connection made by having the starter touching the engine block when bolted up. Also check for signs of corrosion that may have gotten under the insulation of these cables and down the length of the cable. This could be a hidden broken cable that can pass solenoid current but not starter current reliably.
I don't remember you posting about checking out the ignition switch to make sure it can pass the current needed to fully engage the starter solenoid. You will want to do this too.
A good way to keep yourself organized is by testing things component by component in the same order they appear in the schematic / wiring diagram. Start with the battery, then to the fusible links, to the fuse box, then the ignition switch, etc. When doing this, check the wiring integrity between components.
06-23-2017, 08:35 PM
instructions my starting problem (very similar to what you've gone through) my problem ended. Only difference is my older pickup never had a relay to begin with. 
