Link doesn't work...at least at 12:58 PM MDT.

I've made some biodiesel before, just for kicks. It was so unbelievably easy. I've been sold on diesels for a long time. Toyota USA just doesn't want to listen. Just like they won't make a 4Runner type vehicle at a reasonable cost without all the mall goodies like auto tranny.

 

did, do and will -
96 MB E300 diesel 137K
87 MB190 2.5 diesel 240K
03 Sequoia 14K ( currently converting to a diesel - I wish!)

06/07 will bring the new fuel, which means a lot of new diesel vehicles for CA. Can't wait to choose from the flood of oil burners. BMW and MB have some of the finest. Sure Toyota will rally up! At least I hope.

 

Toyota is rockin' on the hybrid front so I think a hybrid is a much more realisitic possiblity for the future.
Diesel is exciting for the torque/veggie oil aspect but there is no infrastructre for it- thus no mass market at this point. Barring that, the normal problems exist-- less convienent to find diesel, it is just as expensive as normal gas now.

gwhayduke, Toyota DOES listen and study the market intensely. Ask anyone about developing and marketing diesel in the US. Even VW. A few short year(s) ago, they would say no way. All of them. Strictly niche market.
VW is marketing the new diesels because advertising/marketing diesel is a fast stop-gap to slow the bleeding from makers like Toyota who took a big risk spending billions on developing hybrid technology---->and hit jackpot big.

Lets be realisitic about what an automaker can do with regards to "mall goodies" and what sells. Toyota, as with every manufacturer competing in the US, is in the business to stay in business.
If people start buying SFA, 5-spd manual, barebones 1st gen-type trucks en mass then yes, they will be in that market. Would you rather they make these "hardcore" trucks and loose money? Would you?

Just because they don't do that doesn't mean they don't want to listen. Toyota makes some great products and you should give them credit for it. What is out there that you would rather have?
There are some gaps in their truck lineup but they are in the process of fixing that. I wonder if you will be singing the same tune when the FJ Cruiser comes out...

 

My wife and I have discussed a hybrid Prius. Mebee you should price a replacement set of batteries before you make such a broad statement. $2k. Since we buy our vehicles rather than "rent" them it means that every 2-3 years you're gonna have to spend a couple grand on the vehicle just for new batteries...Same battery technology as in my laptop and from experience I know 2 years is about the most you'll get.

Horse hockey. Guess you don't make it out of your garage very often. Trucks that haul major loads use diesel. Have for decades. I can buy diesel right up here at the corner where I get on the freeway. And with a range of about 500 miles to a tank (as in the Jeep Liberty's case) you'll be able to find a station before you run out...Been there...I had a VW Diesel.

It wasn't a niche market in the 80's. MB, VW, Volvo, GM, Toyota, Nissan, Pugeot, etc. all had diesels. A couple problems exist...

1. Diesels pollute more. Diesel fuel sold in the US has a high sulfur content and puts more sulfur oxides into the atmosphere and particulates. Now a catalytic converter can take care of the CO and the particulates, but converters are ruined by the sulfur. Low sulfur diesel is produced all the time in Europe, but our oil companies would rather not invest the money into it's production...They can make larger profits with the sulfured diesel.
And our current energy president doesn't want his buddies to do what is right for the people the environment. So he extended the deadline on removing the sulfur from diesel fuel. Never mind the positive effects it would have had on the increasing number of respiratory ailments or the acid rain problem.

2. Public perception. Diesels are dirty and noisy. Shoot, diesels have ALWAYS been dirty and noisy, but they sold like crazy during the 70's and early 80's because fuel was expensive (as a percentage of income). They'll start selling again when the cost of a barrel of oil goes up 30% as was projected in the paper yesterday. In Europe though, diesels are neither dirty or noisy. Why? Unsulfured diesel. Again, back to a president who can't see past the pocketbook of his buddies. See above.


Toy sells 4Runners all over the world...even in 3rd world countries...With diesels...And 5-speeds. I guarrantee that those 4Runners don't cost $32-42K in 3rd world countries. Toy has been gouging us in the US for years. Yes it's a good product...even a great product. But when their profit margin on SUV's has been estimated by consumer organizations to be about 25%, something is wrong. When you go into a Toy dealership, they don't ask you how you want your car equipped, they tell you this is the way it comes. Only with auto tranny (add $1000 to the sticker), only with gas engine (add $1000 per year in maintenance and upkeep at the dealer), ABS (add $350), VSC (add $500), cabin temperature control, cabin air filter, VVT, and the list goes on and on. All of these are profit areas. The 4Runner started out as a great idea. Even the 2nd gen was a good, affordable vehicle (to BUY).

Now 4Runners are so expensive, that people don't buy them anymore. They lease, or do the balloon payment thing. Another profit area. YOU NEVER GET ANY EQUITY THRU THESE PLANS....and they keep you on a financial umbilical cord. When you turn the vehicle in, you need another vehicle...well guess what...they can put you into another vehicle that day for just a little more money. It's in Toy's self interest to make their vehicles so expensive that people have to "lease" or do the balloon payment thing. TOYOTA GETS TO KEEP THE VEHICLE AND YOUR MONEY AND SELL YOU ANOTHER VEHICLE! And Americans are falling into at every dealership...and will pay "rent" for vehicles the rest of their lives.

I've been waiting for the FJ to come out. But see above...They will make it look cute and retro, it will have limited ability, and it will be EXPENSIVE and built on the 1/2 Taco frame not the 1 ton HiLux frame sold to 3rd world countries. Why expensive? So they can get buyers to do the "lease" or "balloon payment" thing, upsell them in 3 years, and still retain ownership of the vehicle to sell AGAIN.

Toyota has most of Americans figured out...Most only look at the payment (check the dealer car ads ). I look at the cost and how many years I can drive the car without having to buy a new one. Another reason why Toy doesn't want to bring out a simple, cheap to maintain diesel in America...They don't break down often. Until Americans get savvy about what car companies are doing to them, the car companies will continue to keep pumping the money right out of your account.

 

(gw)HAYDUKE LIVES! You said it brother. Just a couple other comments. First, the original diesel engine was designed in Texas and was built to run on....cotton oil. So its inherent design lends itself to plant-based oil. Second, diesel fuel as we (Americans) first knew it, was a by-product of gasoline production and it was originally priced as a waste product; cheap. It wasn't until folks started to prefer it, did they start pricing it as a high demand consumer product. And, one's profit margin is even higher when one doesn't worry about trying to produce lower pollutant fuels, ie high sulfer content. Third, gallon for gallon, one will produce more diesel fuel than gasoline per equal volume of crude oil. Search the web, www.biodiesel.org and www.biodiesel.com the companies out there putting effort in production or fleet conversions are having huge success. It works, its clean and green, and it will put money back in our pockets. And finally, what about "national security" and "job creation" and "conserving energy." We have an opportunity in this Country to become leaders in new sources of energy and production right in our back yard, and yet we can't see the forest from the trees: or should I say, "we can't see the sun from the smog!"

 

Can you imagine what inexpensive diesel vehicles would do to the petroleum industry? Lots of folks would have biodiesel setups in their garage...meaning the oil companies would miss out on selling a LOT of diesel. Not good for corporations...Who are interested in their own financial gain...Not ours.

 

i'm starting to think this isn't true. if it was, they'd be up in arms over cars like the honda insight and toyota prius that get 60mpg

 

I think the former (fictional name) George Hayduke would against the oil companies. But, oil companies are crafty critters that enjoy they're own version of h-e-'double hockey sticks' of capitolism.

 

You forgot about him cruising in his CJ5 at a "safe and sane 80 per". Hayduke hated anyone who defaced his southwest...a few beer cans aside.

 

The Diesel engine was first patented to Rudolf Diesel in 1892 in Paris, he built his first prototype the following year fuelled by coal dust (suspended in water). Later prototypes used liquid fuels and in 1900 at the World Exibition in Paris it was demonstrated running on Peanut Oil.

 

Perhaps they're not up in arms over these cars because as gwhayduke points these are not really financially viable at present. Higher manufacturing costs and high battery replacement costs with hybrid or pure electic vehicles versus zero additional costs to manufacture and market a vehicle running on biodiesel, and minor additional costs to manufacture a vehicle to run on straight vegtable oil.
Biodiesel and Vegtable oils are a far more immediate and likely threat to the big oil companies.

 

To say that some automakers are way ahead due to hyrids is way way off. Honda has a robot that walks up and down stairs. Cost loads to develop and its everyday use? Marketing of course. Hybrids are, at this point, a lot of hype. I drove a Toyota hybrid, a 2 seat Honda hybrid, and then the VW TDi. The TDi has torque, acceleration, and is much easier to drive in everyday driving. Now factor that my TDi gets 52 MPG on the highway and the technology is something anyone can understand - pull up to the green nozzle at the gas station. Good luck finding a corner mechanic who can touch a hybrid.

I like when people put their money where their mouth is - and so far my point is panning out as you don't see hybrids flying off dealers sales floors. America isn't buying it as an alternative in its current state and only a few (a lot of them celebrities) are buying them. Now, make a diesel hybrid that has more torque, quicker acceleration, and make it rely less on its electric engine except on the highway and you have a very viable vehicle for everyday driving. Remember, people want bigger vehicles, more cargo capability and they are willing to sacrifice gas mileage for it. Those vehicles could put out a lot less pollution by going to a hybrid format as long as towing/cargo capability isn't lost. So far only small cars are out there and manufacturers are looking at expensive alternatives like hydrogen. Guess what? Diesel is here TODAY and as soon as low sulfur diesel is available (Europe has had it for something like 10 years) then emissions will lower and cars can get better gas mileage since even higher injection pressures can be used.

 

waiting for the touareg v6 tdi. waiting for the bronco tdi.

the vw tdi's are loud tea kettles though.

 

Victor, as a matter of fact, in Ca, there is a 9 month waiting list for the Prius. Not only are Hybrids flying off of shelves but they can not be stocked fast enough. It's been this way since the Insight came out.

You can easily get better performance (towing, acceleration) out of a hybrid just based on the fact that an electric motor can make gobs of torque and 2 or 20k RPMs. You eliminate 2/3 of the gearing right off the bat.

The problem with fuel cells is 2 fold: The fuel and the cell. Hybrids are the immediate future.

Frank

 

One of my good friends is in Okinawa Japan, and i'm trying to research how difficult it would be to swap in the toyota turbo diesel, and if it can even run on the ˟˟˟˟ for diesel fuel we have in america. If so!!! I'm definately gonna have him ship me one.

So, SO lovely!!

Love the smell.... love the sound... love the simplicity

 

The same great state that brought you ebonics and electricity deregulation?



The hybrids are just a way of making do with a smaller, more efficient engine harnessed to a storage device, which is kicks in a electric motor to assist the smaller engine when necessary (at least in the Toy design.)

Unfortunately, the systems are very complicated. The cars cost about 25% more to get about 25% more gas mileage than a Toy Corolla. I applaud the mileage, I denounce the complexity. Once the cost of those replacement batteries is factored in, I seriously doubt that there is any cost benefit to the consumer. And before you start howling about emissions, factor in the additional emissions by factories to produce the technology that makes this gas mileage possible.

Hybrids will go the way of that GM electric car...Now what was it's name again? As soon as the public realizes the total cost of ownership, it's gone.

Now diesels...simpler technology, fits in an existing framework, high energy output, can be made to run relatively clean in the absence of a Bush "good ole boy" atmosphere and runs even cleaner on renewable fuels. What's not to love?

 

I really can't go into deep detail about this because I have signed a document saying I wouldn't. But.... The hybrids of the future will be diesel/electrics.

As for the batteries, their prices will drop as more and more are sold. One must also factor in the tax rebates/fuel savings into that equation as well.

As for complexity, it's really not very complex. You have to have a specialized drive train but the typical car will go from being a 5 speed to a 2. Just think, for those of you who rock crawl, no more need for dual cases.

Also, the peak performance limits are much much higher. Electric motors have flat torque "curves" and can spin much faster than the typical piston engine.

Ah yes, California, well someone has to lead the way....

Frank.

 

The diesel electic hybrid is the best thing I've heard in a long time. When you a couple a small gas engine to an electric motor for the typical hybrid the results aren't impressive due to the small gas engine. For the same displacement the diesel engine will have more torque and that power will be useful at low RPMs which is more useful. After we bought our TDi a neighbor drove it, bought a TDi Golf, and now another neighbor wants one. Driving one is believing in the ability of diesel power.

 

Why cant we get these here in the USA

4.2 turbo diesel, 5-speed, SFA, Manual hubs, limited slip, built right the first time
without the ''mall goodies'' soccer moms need not apply.

 

Faster than my hand could write a check.

Diesels rule!