Antifreeze
Jan 20, 2010 | 11:08 AM
#1
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Antifreeze
I have a 1988 Toyota Corolla Sport with 45,000miles on it. About five years ago I had the original coolant flushed out and new antifreeze put in. The water is now solid rust color. It has been flushed out three more times due to a hose leek and is still very very rusty. I just learned that Toyota used a "different" type of antifreeze. I do know that what's in it now is green. Do I need to change the coolant again to a different type?
Jan 20, 2010 | 11:13 AM
#2
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From: Marysville, WA
Toyota uses Red colored coolant. Red mixed with Green creates a rusty color.
Combine that with years of use, and the fact that most people don't use distilled water, and you get whats going on in your cooling system. Flush it all out, refill with coolant (red or green, whatever your preference. I like Factory Toyota red myself) and use distilled water, NOT tap water.
Combine that with years of use, and the fact that most people don't use distilled water, and you get whats going on in your cooling system. Flush it all out, refill with coolant (red or green, whatever your preference. I like Factory Toyota red myself) and use distilled water, NOT tap water.
Jan 20, 2010 | 09:51 PM
#5
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From: Sonora, CA (Central Sierra)
Ok, here's my 2 cents.
I don't believe they were saying that any rust would be caused by tap rather than distilled water, but mostly making a suggestion to always stick to distilled water on coolant changes. The biggest reason for this is that tap water has mineral deposits in it (hard or soft water), from the time it spent as groundwater first, and then from the time that it spent sitting in collection tanks and pipes before getting to your tap. Your radiator has small gaps that it pushes your coolant/water mix through in order to cool your vehicle efficiently. Over time, mineral deposits from this water can build up in your cooling system, exactly the way that it does on your shower door. These mineral deposits can, over time, block the small passages in your radiator and cooling system that your cooling system needs in order to work.
In some areas, there is a lot of iron content in the water. It is possible, I suppose, that if this is the case in your area, that you could have heavy iron deposits mixed in with mineral deposits in your cooling system. If this is the case, it will take many flushes over a long time with new distilled water and coolant to remove the orange color.
Also, as noted by others above, Toyota uses a red colored antifreeze on some vehicles. If this was originally used on your vehicle, and was replaced or topped off with certain types of green antifreeze, there is a possibility that the two antifreezes may react to each other (actually, the anti-corrosives in one variety may react to the kind of anticorrosives used by another variety) , causing this orange-ish color, and potentially even causing mild to severe internal cooling system corrosion.
Here's my recommendation for you. Call your local toyota dealer, and ask them to tell you what kind of antifreeze is right for your vehicle. Write that down, and take it to your local quick-lube. Have them do a complete cooling system flush, and make sure they know what kind of coolant to use when they replace it. For yourself, buy some of the correct coolant from a dealership or the parts store, and top off your cooling system as needed with this mixed per the manufacturer's directions with distilled water to avoid mineral buildup.
I hope this was helpful, good luck!
I don't believe they were saying that any rust would be caused by tap rather than distilled water, but mostly making a suggestion to always stick to distilled water on coolant changes. The biggest reason for this is that tap water has mineral deposits in it (hard or soft water), from the time it spent as groundwater first, and then from the time that it spent sitting in collection tanks and pipes before getting to your tap. Your radiator has small gaps that it pushes your coolant/water mix through in order to cool your vehicle efficiently. Over time, mineral deposits from this water can build up in your cooling system, exactly the way that it does on your shower door. These mineral deposits can, over time, block the small passages in your radiator and cooling system that your cooling system needs in order to work.
In some areas, there is a lot of iron content in the water. It is possible, I suppose, that if this is the case in your area, that you could have heavy iron deposits mixed in with mineral deposits in your cooling system. If this is the case, it will take many flushes over a long time with new distilled water and coolant to remove the orange color.
Also, as noted by others above, Toyota uses a red colored antifreeze on some vehicles. If this was originally used on your vehicle, and was replaced or topped off with certain types of green antifreeze, there is a possibility that the two antifreezes may react to each other (actually, the anti-corrosives in one variety may react to the kind of anticorrosives used by another variety) , causing this orange-ish color, and potentially even causing mild to severe internal cooling system corrosion.
Here's my recommendation for you. Call your local toyota dealer, and ask them to tell you what kind of antifreeze is right for your vehicle. Write that down, and take it to your local quick-lube. Have them do a complete cooling system flush, and make sure they know what kind of coolant to use when they replace it. For yourself, buy some of the correct coolant from a dealership or the parts store, and top off your cooling system as needed with this mixed per the manufacturer's directions with distilled water to avoid mineral buildup.
I hope this was helpful, good luck!
Jan 20, 2010 | 09:57 PM
#6
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From: Sonora, CA (Central Sierra)
If you are interested in the science behind why this is the case, here is a link to another forum thread here on this site, and an especially well thought out and researched quote:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...46/index2.html
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...46/index2.html
That's exactly right. All commonly-available antifreezes are based on ethylene glycol; it's the corrosion inhibitor chemistry that is different and potentially incompatible.
I learned this only after I opened my radiator one day and found the coolant completely opaque and shot through with rust. I had replaced toyota red with prestone, and didn't do a very good job flushing, and I probably used tap water also. I now know that both actions caused chemical reactions that basically used up the corrosion protection chemicals (the silicates) in the new coolant. So the coolant had little corrosion protection and ph buffering capacity, and soon turned acidic, leading to the block getting completely rusted.
Toyota Red uses a phosphate anti-corrosion chemistry. The green stuff uses silicates. Both are inorganic chemistries, but they are incompatible. Phosphates do especially well with iron, and do fine with aluminum, and with copper/brass/lead radiators and heater cores. All Japanese carmakers prefer phosphates.
Silicates (prestone green) are particularly good with aluminum, not as good with iron, and do fine with copper/brass/lead. They are slightly abrasive, and are slightly more likely than phosphates to cause leaks in water pump seals. European carmakers prefer silicates.
The problem with phosphates in particular is that they are the least compatible chemistry - mixing with the minerals in tap water or with a different coolant type will cause the phosphates to precipitate out and clog radiator passages, while at the same time your corrosion protection goes bye-bye.
But both inorganic chemistries must be replaced every two years because the corrosion protection wears out.
Then there came a new type, based on organic acids (so-called OAT types), such as most of the new long life coolants like Dexcool. These are a bad choice for older vehicles because they will corrode copper/brass/lead radiators, and because the OATs react very strongly and harmfully with the inorganics.
In an attempt to address that issue, there came a new type called "Hybrid Organic Acid Technology (HOAT). Those include your Prestone yellow, Zerex G-05, and the new Toyota pink (though that is somewhat in a class of its own). The HOATS combine an organic acid (different than the one in DexCool) with inorganic inhibitors. All the HOATs use silicates except Toyota Pink, which uses phosphates. That's why Toyota says it's okay to mix pink & red.
Theoretically, the HOATs are okay to mix with any coolant, but I think only time will prove whether that's true, and I think it is foolish to test their theory in your engine. I remember DexCool was hyped as a cure-all when it came out, too. HOAT chemistry is still acid-based, and for that reason I think you probably don't want to use them in an older vehicle that has copper/brass/lead radiators and heater cores (such as ours). That goes even for the toyota pink. Both the OATs and the HOATs were designed for aluminum rads & heater cores.
If someone doesn't know what type of coolant was in their motor, they should FULLY flush every spec of coolant out, which can take six or more flushes. Be sure to open all the drains (including the one on the block if you can get at it) and make sure your heater temp is all the way to hot to enable the coolant to be washed out of the heater core, too. Helps also to remove the thermostat on a 3vze - don't know about the 22re.
As far as the proper coolant to use, I recommend what Toyota designed for the motor: Toyota Red coolant. Mix it 50/50 with distilled water. Don't under any circumstances use an OAT coolant. Some will say HOATs are okay. I think that assertion is iffy, and anyway it is unproven. Many will say green silicate-based coolants are okay. But Japanese car makers intentionally never used silicates in their engines - they used phosphates instead. Why not use the coolant that was designed for your engine? It's not THAT expensive, and you only have to change it every two years.
I learned this only after I opened my radiator one day and found the coolant completely opaque and shot through with rust. I had replaced toyota red with prestone, and didn't do a very good job flushing, and I probably used tap water also. I now know that both actions caused chemical reactions that basically used up the corrosion protection chemicals (the silicates) in the new coolant. So the coolant had little corrosion protection and ph buffering capacity, and soon turned acidic, leading to the block getting completely rusted.
Toyota Red uses a phosphate anti-corrosion chemistry. The green stuff uses silicates. Both are inorganic chemistries, but they are incompatible. Phosphates do especially well with iron, and do fine with aluminum, and with copper/brass/lead radiators and heater cores. All Japanese carmakers prefer phosphates.
Silicates (prestone green) are particularly good with aluminum, not as good with iron, and do fine with copper/brass/lead. They are slightly abrasive, and are slightly more likely than phosphates to cause leaks in water pump seals. European carmakers prefer silicates.
The problem with phosphates in particular is that they are the least compatible chemistry - mixing with the minerals in tap water or with a different coolant type will cause the phosphates to precipitate out and clog radiator passages, while at the same time your corrosion protection goes bye-bye.
But both inorganic chemistries must be replaced every two years because the corrosion protection wears out.
Then there came a new type, based on organic acids (so-called OAT types), such as most of the new long life coolants like Dexcool. These are a bad choice for older vehicles because they will corrode copper/brass/lead radiators, and because the OATs react very strongly and harmfully with the inorganics.
In an attempt to address that issue, there came a new type called "Hybrid Organic Acid Technology (HOAT). Those include your Prestone yellow, Zerex G-05, and the new Toyota pink (though that is somewhat in a class of its own). The HOATS combine an organic acid (different than the one in DexCool) with inorganic inhibitors. All the HOATs use silicates except Toyota Pink, which uses phosphates. That's why Toyota says it's okay to mix pink & red.
Theoretically, the HOATs are okay to mix with any coolant, but I think only time will prove whether that's true, and I think it is foolish to test their theory in your engine. I remember DexCool was hyped as a cure-all when it came out, too. HOAT chemistry is still acid-based, and for that reason I think you probably don't want to use them in an older vehicle that has copper/brass/lead radiators and heater cores (such as ours). That goes even for the toyota pink. Both the OATs and the HOATs were designed for aluminum rads & heater cores.
If someone doesn't know what type of coolant was in their motor, they should FULLY flush every spec of coolant out, which can take six or more flushes. Be sure to open all the drains (including the one on the block if you can get at it) and make sure your heater temp is all the way to hot to enable the coolant to be washed out of the heater core, too. Helps also to remove the thermostat on a 3vze - don't know about the 22re.
As far as the proper coolant to use, I recommend what Toyota designed for the motor: Toyota Red coolant. Mix it 50/50 with distilled water. Don't under any circumstances use an OAT coolant. Some will say HOATs are okay. I think that assertion is iffy, and anyway it is unproven. Many will say green silicate-based coolants are okay. But Japanese car makers intentionally never used silicates in their engines - they used phosphates instead. Why not use the coolant that was designed for your engine? It's not THAT expensive, and you only have to change it every two years.
Jan 21, 2010 | 12:02 AM
#7
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From: I live in New Tripoli Pa out in the woods
So where does one buy this distilled water ??
How much is the going price?? How much mark up ??
While I do agree distilled water is better . I just never seem to be able to find it and would need to have a 250 gallon tank for the amount of cooling system work I do in a month.
Would you as a customer not complain at a charge on your bill for distilled water.
How much is the going price?? How much mark up ??
While I do agree distilled water is better . I just never seem to be able to find it and would need to have a 250 gallon tank for the amount of cooling system work I do in a month.
Would you as a customer not complain at a charge on your bill for distilled water.
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Jan 21, 2010 | 12:20 AM
#8
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From: Marysville, WA
Distilled water can be had at most any grocery store. I just picked up 2 gallons today at safeway here in WA for $1.19/each.
Do NOT get purified water, or use tap water. Minerals and chemicals are added to those waters to make them taste better, and sterile for drinking (though distilled is the purest of them all). Those added chemicals are what causes much of the corrosion and problems in a cooling system. Particularly ones that use traditional ethyl glycol coolant.
Btw given that distilled water is $1.19/gallon, and a cooling system in an average vehicle takes at most 2 gallons of water, no i would not complain about $2.38
Do NOT get purified water, or use tap water. Minerals and chemicals are added to those waters to make them taste better, and sterile for drinking (though distilled is the purest of them all). Those added chemicals are what causes much of the corrosion and problems in a cooling system. Particularly ones that use traditional ethyl glycol coolant.
Btw given that distilled water is $1.19/gallon, and a cooling system in an average vehicle takes at most 2 gallons of water, no i would not complain about $2.38
Jan 21, 2010 | 03:57 AM
#12
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From: Oklahoma State
Actually the biggest reason to use distilled water is because it doesn't have any ions. Ions cause electrolysis. http://www.radiatorreporter.com/electrol.html
Jan 21, 2010 | 07:19 AM
#14
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From: DFW, Texas!
Actually the biggest reason to use distilled water is because it doesn't have any ions. Ions cause electrolysis. http://www.radiatorreporter.com/electrol.html
Jan 21, 2010 | 06:14 PM
#16
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From: Cincinnati Ohio
1988 Corolla? It came with green. The red stuff diddnt come out until about 1999 or so.
That stuff is over $35 a gallon at Toyota. Chances are you have green coolant.
The rust color could be junk from a plugged up heater core. Hows your heat working?
That stuff is over $35 a gallon at Toyota. Chances are you have green coolant.
The rust color could be junk from a plugged up heater core. Hows your heat working?
Jan 21, 2010 | 07:30 PM
#17
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Ah,ha!
Never had a problem until I flushed out the radiator. Prior to that it held the original fluids with no particular color remaining and no rust. Actually, still haven't had a problem except for all the rust in the coolant after dispensing with the original and refilling three times. I was concerned about the rust and found out about Toyota having a 'special red antifreeze.' I was pretty sure that I hadn't gotten any 'special red antifreeze' installed without my knowledge.
Jan 21, 2010 | 07:45 PM
#18
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From: Colorado Springs, CO
So I have a small coolant leak, so periodically I am adding a little prestone to the existing toyota red. Does that mean that I am destroying the anti-corrosion properties of the two different liquids? Even though prestone claims to be compatable with all types of coolant.
Jan 21, 2010 | 08:05 PM
#19
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From: Sonora, CA (Central Sierra)
Actually the biggest reason to use distilled water is because it doesn't have any ions. Ions cause electrolysis. http://www.radiatorreporter.com/electrol.html
"An ion is an atom or molecule where the total number of electrons is not equal to the total number of protons, giving it a net positive or negative electrical charge"
"Deionized water, also known as demineralized water[2] (DI water, DIW or de-ionized water; can also be spelled deionised water, see Spelling differences), is water that has had its mineral ions removed, such as cations from sodium, calcium, iron, copper and anions such as chloride and bromide. Deionization is a physical process which uses specially-manufactured ion exchange resins which bind to and filter out the mineral salts from water. Because the majority of water impurities are dissolved salts, deionization produces a high purity water that is generally similar to distilled water, and this process is quick and without scale buildup."
"Deionization does not remove the hydroxide or hydronium ions from water. These are the products of the self-ionization of water to equilibrium and therefore are impossible to remove"
While it is true that de-ionized water is slightly more electrically neutral (and thus less likely to cause electrolysis), the difference will be so low that you wouldn't be able to measure it with anything less than specialized equipment. Yes, de-ionized water would work just fine in your cooling system, but the primary reason is the removal of mineral salts that can build up in your cooling system.
However, you do bring up an excellent point with your mention of electrolysis, this could be acting on the cooling system. Mrsmadrigal, you might also want to check your engine ground, to make sure that it is clean and making good contact.
The worst possibility is that your water pump is rusting out, and getting ready to fail.
Never had a problem until I flushed out the radiator. Prior to that it held the original fluids with no particular color remaining and no rust. Actually, still haven't had a problem except for all the rust in the coolant after dispensing with the original and refilling three times. I was concerned about the rust and found out about Toyota having a 'special red antifreeze.' I was pretty sure that I hadn't gotten any 'special red antifreeze' installed without my knowledge.
Jan 21, 2010 | 08:09 PM
#20
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From: Sonora, CA (Central Sierra)
So I have a small coolant leak, so periodically I am adding a little prestone to the existing toyota red. Does that mean that I am destroying the anti-corrosion properties of the two different liquids? Even though prestone claims to be compatable with all types of coolant.
"In an attempt to address that issue, there came a new type called "Hybrid Organic Acid Technology (HOAT). Those include your Prestone yellow, Zerex G-05, and the new Toyota pink (though that is somewhat in a class of its own). The HOATS combine an organic acid (different than the one in DexCool) with inorganic inhibitors. All the HOATs use silicates except Toyota Pink, which uses phosphates. That's why Toyota says it's okay to mix pink & red.
Theoretically, the HOATs are okay to mix with any coolant, but I think only time will prove whether that's true, and I think it is foolish to test their theory in your engine. I remember DexCool was hyped as a cure-all when it came out, too. HOAT chemistry is still acid-based, and for that reason I think you probably don't want to use them in an older vehicle that has copper/brass/lead radiators and heater cores (such as ours). That goes even for the toyota pink. Both the OATs and the HOATs were designed for aluminum rads & heater cores."
If I am reading that right, if it is newer prestone, and it says "safe for all makes and models", that means it is probably a HOAT. Double check the bottle to be sure.
