Have not seen my stock manifold for probably 15 years, but it likely has passages molded into the cast iron. With the header, you just have a relatively thin flange (3/8" or so) and the tubes, so no room for a dedicated passage. Suppose one could weld up a little 90 degree elbow between the runner and the flange for the EGR, but that would be tricky getting a good seal weld in that tight area. And when LC designed that header, all you had to do was pass the old idle tests and all they did was pull a vacuum on the EGR valve and if the engine stumbled, that was enough to pass the visual test.

And on a freshly installed header, the gasket issue would not be a big deal, but like mine was after maybe 5 years installed, that web of gasket had a build up of soot/carbon that made it maybe 3 times as thick as original. That gasket will be cooler than the surrounding metal and any unburned HC in the exhaust will condense on the gasket and keep doing so until it fills up that little EGR passage and blocks it off.

 

RE; CA Smog Failure(And whatever else within my motor/efi/ecu might be causing my failure).........

I've spoken to an exhaust shop that I trust, they QUICKLY asked me, "What kind of CAT?".... I responded, "CATCO"(which I had no hand in choosing, I just didn't know), to which he responded, ....."OHHhhhh, .... yeah, those are a LAST resort for me. And, considering you failed with high HC ....AND... NOx, I would GUESS, only a guess... the HG failure, added to the '2.25" ', added to your 02 being so much further back, all have added to your CAT is most likely already dead. The exhaust guy said he'd weld an 02 bung in for 20$, FREE if I get the CAT from him, which would be 200$ for a Magnaflow 3-way..........

I tell ya, ....there's times in this build/my life with the truck over the last couple years.... I've just about had enough of the 'gremlin hunt'. I mean, one knowledgeable guy is telling me "it's likely the EGR, even still", the other saying, "I put my money on the CAT", the next saying, "Doesn't matter if you replace the entire EGR/Emissions system, it's still going to wind up right back there, because something VERY tricky has gone haywire, ECU, 02, TPS, Wiring, whatever, and it's got to be fixed first, or you'll never have longevity with these motors, etc."...... I'm not complaining over the advice, etc... I WANT IT ALL, it at least keeps me looking/learning and able to gain the ability to then 'rule out/verify' this, that or the other.

Example.. My neighbor took one look in my tail pipe and said,"NO WAY, dude, I'm telling you it's running rich, MOST OF the time. It's totally black in there.... When it's running lean, it'll clean that right up."... Which then leaves me CHASING MY PROVERBIAL 'CRANIAL TAIL'! I then start thinking, "Man, even if I put back the entire stock exhaust system... what if I have an 02 Wiring issue?", plus 100 other things, which leave me feeling like "what's the point"? But then the only option is to take it in and spend hundreds of dollars for someone to tell me, "Oh yeah, your harness wiring has to be bad/dead in these spots, etc."... And then I remember that I tested most EVERYTHING at the ECU(besides the 02, since it's location was changed), tested every sensor..... But I can't REALLY ever know if my AFM is causing intermittent/erratic issues, etc., YA KNOWWWWWWW????? :angry:

***Before the following, consider this; I have a brand new Denso 02 on the way to me, should be here Monday(21$ with 15% coupon from sparkplugs.com)***

I guess I would just like the opinions of ANYONE who cares to interject....

*WHAT WOULD YOU DO, AT THIS POINT?*

I have several options, including;

1. Re-installing the stock exhaust manifold and pipe thereafter to the CAT>(A CAT which, unfortunately, should probably be replaced....AGAIN!)

2. Have a Bung welded to the Collector portion of the LCE Header(he couldn't tell me if that's legal... but he said the smog test guy would probably RATHER see it where it's supposed to be, factory-OEM, anyhow). I would imagine I could use the Bung on the CAT Back pipe for the 02 that is there now(cut it off) and have him weld THAT into the 4-1 Portion, where the 4 runners meet.??????

3. Do everything in #2, INCLUDING; Change the CAT back pipe to 2", go with a 2" Magnaflow CAT and restrict the flow at the collector a bit, to aid in 'back-pressure'.

4. Leave everything the way it is, but add a NEW CAT and Heated 02(spliced into the "RUN" portion of the IGN, so it's only one when running.... Maybe to the Fuel Pump wiring, then add a relay?)???????

************************************************** ************


No matter what I decide, I sure hope it has the effect that I want... which is;

GET THIS THING RUNNING LIKE IT'S SUPPOSED TO, PROPER AIR/FUEL RATIO, BETTER MILEAGE, LOSE THE 'MISS' I HAVE, THEN JUST FREAKIN DRIVE IT!!!! :angry2:

 

I say run a volt meter test from the ecu to the end of the o2 to see if you have correct measurement. Then if everything checks out good, change the o2 and maybe the cat. Aftermarket cat now a days don't even last till the next smog check no more. I have to chage mines every two years when it time for smog. Catco cat too. You know what I mean? Haha

Moving the o2 back to the top will heat up the o2 some more? Haha it makes sense. I hope.

 

Hello again from under my rock.... if you were overly rich your CO2 wouldn't be any where near 14:7 ratio. More like 9-10:7. And if rich, your Nox would have passed. Your CO? HC would have been off the scale. Think cold, rich kills Nox. I have my factory cat from my 83. Maybe 20k. Sitting for 25 years. I would guess single bed? Flange to flange 12 1/2 inch long. I'll send it to you if it will bolt in and then you can speak kindly of me when I am gone.

 

Hey Vang, .... I hear ya. I've tested most everything from the ECU many times. Even the foreman at the local dealer tested it and felt it was acting/reading as it should(course, that was almost 2 years ago and a blown HG later, lol)... I've found nothing alarming at the ECU with either voltage or resistance... which somewhat left me feeling a lil better about the 'harness wiring'... Can't remember how well I tested the injectors.. But DID run some tests at the 10 and 20 pins. Tested with it connected and disconnected and running, for voltage and resistance variables, etc. per FSM.

************************************************** *************

HELLOOOOOOOOOOO NEW JERSEY!!!!! lol.

Wow, that's very kind, man.... NOT EVEN trying to be ungrateful, ...but have to ask, is it a CA legal CAT? 3way catalyst? I'm sure it might still work better than this CATCO, lol... But if it's single or dual stage, wont it lack in the NOX killing power? Again, NOT nitpicking! I THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA, if you think it would work here in CA??? VERY kind of ya, and I've not spoken unkindly of ya yet, lol... I wouldn't start whether you did something so cool or not! ahahaha. I will PM ya, k?

 

Just keeping the convo going, whether it's gleaned from or not, lol... I GOTTA KEEP AT IT or I'll lose my marbles, hahaaa...

Hey Vang, ...

Yeah, it does. Problem is, I could have other things that are just 'a lil wonky', like an AFM that drops off in places that effect the 25MPH test for 60 seconds at 2500rpm(give or take 200rpm).... Could have wiring issues... But when I tested at the ECU on EVERYTHING, ..... it was all within specs(mostly right at the mid-perfect level, some not so much, but all within specs).

Far as the 02, I CAN NOT believe that it's not being effected any longer. I've saved around 50 links to random threads that I've read where CA guys like myself have had TONS of trouble smogging the 22RE with LCE/02 back near the CAT. I've also been reading LOTS about 'going too big with piping', and still pretty moved by TED of engnbldr's thoughts on the 'just right set up'... He says;

"But now we need to think about the exhaust system. Improving the exhaust system is number one as far as freeing up usuable power, it doesn't "make" any at all. But the factory needed a quiet, smooth, and responsive engine because the driver might be a little old lady going to the store in Hawaii, or a young fellow driving around at 5000 ft altitude in Colorado. So they compensated for this, and for ground clearence on some vehicles.

The best setup cost wise we have found is to use the excellent factory exhaust manifold, then increase the pipe size to 2" all the way to the muffler, yep, the cat, too. Then we increase again to 2 1/4" on exit all the way back.

This creates a bit of directional flow and frees up power, it fairly quiet and smooth."

There are SO MANY variables, including even Roger's applications, which ARE, in fact, different than mine;

1. His 02 is ON the #4 Runner, not 24" back from there, as mine is
2. He has inserted a restriction plate at the collector
3. He has step bit drilled out the weld blockage at the #2 and #3 Exhaust/to/EGR passages, to improve flow


Then, there are others, like Grego;

1. Basically can sum up in one post... LCE header/Heated front 02/Dual 02/EGR Heat Temp Sensing system with cooler/....etc. (Yes, and a factory CAT, too).

I truly believe that SOME of my problems are;

1. I'm running 2.25" from collector the back(Should be 2" to the muffler, including CAT, then 2.25" out the back from the muffler
2. I passed, with 254K miles and a leaking like a pig motor with 110-120 Compression, MAX, with stock exhaust(orig. 02 location and I BELIEVE orig. 02, 254Kmiles old!... Was at LEAST 150K old from when I bought it).
3. Due to #1, I have limited if not VERY LIL back-pressure, which HAS to be effecting my EGR(Add to that a possibility of 'limited passage for EGR ports via the LCE header... it might be hurting me)
4. POSSIBLY, not certainly, my CAT(My running lean for 8K miles and HG failure initially upon this motor's install... well, it could have done this CATCO in ENOUGH to be pushing it just beyond it's limits)... not forgetting to mention, from everything I've read/heard from pro's... CATCO IS CRAP!(again, I didn't pick it out or order it... I trusted the exhaust shop to give me a Magnaflow, which is what I thought I'd make clear, and they installed a CATCO. And, THAT DOES NOT mean that it's not doing it's job at all... it's just strange to have high HC and NOX on the same test, isn't it? Isn't it also telling, as my neighbor said, to have ''too much black soot at the tailpipe"??? )

I think that if they tested me at 65MPH on the Highway at 2400rpm or so... this thing would pass without issue. But that's the problem... they're MUCH more concerned about 'city' driving, the load it induces and the increased "5 evil elements", according to C.A.R.B. . Even if IT DID pass, I would still have a problem, because I'm running either rich at some spots or lean at others(where I'm failing in NOX, I'm CLOSE to failing at 15mph on HC's[131 max- 99 Measured]. When I get off the road from a 'STRONG DRIVE', whether in town or highway, ...the smell from the pipe in back is NOTHING! After sitting a few minutes... it's starting to stink, and NOT TERRIBLY, just enough to notice the difference.

Seeing that I'd dropped the timing and replaced the modulator on a virtually new rebuild and STILL had virtually the same test results..... SOMETHING IS ADJUSTING IT back/out of whack... Really seems as though that would be either the 02/AFM or both, ya know? (interested in what your smog family member says, VANG, ....lemme know).

I have a brand new factory exhaust manifold a buddy I know will let me slap on(he's got a 1200$ exhaust on his 22RE stroker, and he'll be slapping back on the factory exhaust with factory spec engine if he sells it ever)... I also have the Pipe from collector to CAT that I removed when rebuilding/replacing exhaust. It wouldn't cost me much to go to 2" pipe to the Muffler, and just keep the header and cat back pipe for now, .... so I think it's probably worth a try. Could be EGR gasses not getting out causing more issues or the CAT that's in there... I can't know. So maybe if I just slap in the system it's intended to run with and give it my 3rd try, I can then at least run it until next smog without having to worry about how I'm 'lean/rich/lean/rich' grenading my brand newly rebuilt motor, ya know???? (IF< in fact, it fixes the problems I'm having to some degree.).

The new 02 should be in my hands today or tomorrow along with the manifold(My original is REALLY pretty warped and has some pitting that's leaking.. And this one wont cost me anything, so why not, right? lol). Wow, Thelast83inNJ, ..if that CAT would work, I think I'd be in good shape, no matter what I try here(granting it make SURE the 02 is getting hot enough, etc., etc.).

 

PS> Question; Wouldn't making so much more flow LOWER my vacuum pressure?

 

Looking at the Toyota bible this morning, my cat won't work for you. It's a oxidation type not a Three Way cat like you need for California. They had federal and CA with an O2 back then. I think you'll end up where I thought.

 

Ahhh, ok, well THANKS, anyway, NJ! Very cool of ya.... especially to look it up on top of the offer

I just realized that, on top of my old CAT back pipe having pitting/leakage pretty bad(I saw that at seafoam treatment before I did any rebuilding, couple years ago- PISSED STEAM LIKE CRAZY out of the CAT back pipe and mani).... I just saw that the stock manifold is not only very well warped... But there are two decent cracks in it. ONE crack on the outer right side seam/below and right of the 02... And TWO, a crack RIGHT ABOVE the 02 sensor, bout 3/4" long. I noticed a big build up of rust/gray stuff there, wiped it away and voila, a crack. All of these combined may have been adding up to some altered states with her, before I rebuilt. I was having a bit of a mileage issue, even back then. Anyway, not sure on that, but just killing time while I'm stuck here today.

Got the NEW factory manifold from the guy, yesterday... Not POSITIVE what I'll do just yet, but wanted to add;

Philbert, a cool member on here, has basically the SAME set up as mine, 02 set back a bit, etc.. and he cleaned out his EGR, switched some 'goof' vacuum routing on his modulator around, then a new CAT and 02, ...and passed easily. What I wonder is; Is it POSSIBLE that the Brand new CAT and 02 helped him lower the NOX but not really solve a problem that is often caused, eventually, by the 02 Location on the LCE set up(along with lack of backpressure???). I'll be interested to see if he passes smog as easily next time around. I HOPE HE DOES, not wishing him drama, lol.. Just curious.

Anyway, gonna either have a bung slapped in on the header for the 02, and do a restriction plate, OR slap in the factory exhaust deal and get this HOPEFULLY over with, ...SOON! I'll update asap.

 

My uncle says check your EGR valve. When you rev the engine at 2500 it should read about 10-12 lb of pressure. If not then replace the valve. I told him about the o2 location but he got confuse weather it was on the manifold or on the down pipe. Haha

 

Hey Vang, tell him thanks for me

I believe at 2500-3000rpm, fully warm, I'm pulling 14-16" vacuum on the test the FSM calls for. It also stalls when vacuum is applied(I know, that's not CONCLUSIVE), but it passes with at least 'it's at least somewhat working' colors, lol. I'd hate to fork out another 179$/DISCOUNTED to Toyota-online sources... just to find out that wasn't my problem. But I WILL NOT rule it out at this freakin point, ya know???? lol.

The 02 on my rig is a single wire/non-heated 02, which, from the factory, was located ON the Manifold, right at the tri-y collective(bout midway of the manifold, top to bottom). I'll have pics up tonight. 88+ have heated sensors that are on the CAT back pipe(pretty much like my LCE pipe is set up).

I'd just throw a NEW: CAT, EGR, 02(have that anyway) on there, but IF my CAT is in fact bad? There's a reason, and it's most likely a 'TOO LEAN' reason, which I do not want to let go on.

 

OK, so, ..... that manifold I was handed? Right out the box, I get it all ready to slap on, made a deal with the exhaust guy I know.... etc., etc. ... IT'S CRACKED! Yep, shined light down the #1 runner to verify.... "let there be light", shining right through! GRRRR! He left me the receipt... So I was heading down the street to return it for another, then thought, "You know, ... this CHINA crap is NEVER going to match my original manifold, if it's in fact worth looking at!" ... so on the way to the parts store, I stopped at my machinist buddy... He slapped it on the grinder, sand blasted it, DONE! ....10$ Then, I slapped some 'FLAT ALUMICOTE COLOR HI-TEMP PAINT' I already had on it, ... and voila, for 14$ my Manifold, hopefully, is good to go, IF I go that route for now.

Well, what did NOT work out so well this; I suspected my top-right exhaust stud hole in the head was a LIL stripped.... And now it's COMPLETELY stripped. Of course, the WORST possible hole it could be, stripped! I still have a tap/helicoil kit from NAPA for the M10-1.25 repair... But I can't get the 13/32 drill bit in there to hone it out! AHHHHHHHHHHH! Anyone have one of those fancy drills that let you do it at a 90* angle?

So now, either way, I HAVE to get this fixed to even put ANYTHING on! It was holding like 25# before, so I don't think that was a 'SERIOUSLY' contributing factor on the smog(it's not the lower/center bolt, right next to the EGR port or anything,... but it can't be helping me in ANY case! Good LORD this head better not crack! (I can't tap that hole just like it is, without drilling it out with the 13/32 bit first, right? hahaha.... ahhhhh )

Tellin you guys... I CAN'T POSSIBLY have a competitor in the 'MURPHY'S LAW/CRAP LUCK' dept.! lol. I know of a tool shop down the road that carries ANYTHING in bits, short as you want.. So either I can go that route... or I'm open to IDEAS??

PS> I COULD get the drill in there, ..... IF I REMOVE MY BOOSTER..... ??? Please tell me there's another way?

 

I think I can use a 'Close Quarters' 3/8 drill and make it happen... GREGO... you got one? lol. I just can't spend anymore money if I don't have to, ya know?

I'll ask my neighbor tomorrow... He might just have one. :kneelingandprayingsmiley: hahahaa.

 

Go to harbor freight buy a 90* drill use it once return it. Problem solve haha

 

Might have to.. neighbor doesn't have one. He has Snap-on air tools that could work but I don't even ask on that stuff! lol.

 

sorry, don't got one of those. Vang's idea sounds good to me since harbor freight is right down the hill from you. Or what about the machinist? that guy seems to have a garage full of everything....it's the guy you recommend me to right? the short talkative mad scientist looking guy . That guy knows his stuff though.

 

Haha short talkative mad scientist sounds like he has everything anyone need

 

Yep, PHIL! lol.... I'm sure he has one, but most everything he has is air... I mean, it's all hooked up in the shop. I would MUCH rather have him do it, since this is a one shot OR DIE deal, lol... But HOPEFULLY I'll be ok if I just take my time and drill it out straight. Granting it works; At least it will tighten now! lol. Guess today I finally took the last 1 or 2 threads right out, today. OY! lol.

Grego; You used Phil? The guy is a SERIOUS Guru of Machining, man!

 

Yeah, I had vellios helicoil the cam cap holes in the head....in addition to helicoiling the bolt hole they decided to leave the little pins that sticks up that the caps fit over to help line it up. So they drilled out and threaded those pins also instead of removing them before helicoiling. Drilling those pins made them expand and the caps would no longer fit over them. Luckily I was able to remove them and order them online from the dealer.

There was no way in heck I was gonna let them do my crank after that. So I used Phil.

 

And there it is... I've not really spoken of it, .. not sure why, but VELLIOS is the shop that rebuilt my FIRST of 2 motors in 2 YEARS/10k miles!.... and in the end, I would have been better re-ringing it and HG and drive away! The list is ENDLESS....

* TERRIBLE grind on my original CAM that led to MONTHS of chasing my tail

* WAY too much sealant on the timing cover/Cracked the Block on the T-cover face(sealant issue and WHATEVER they did to my orig. timing cover caused another chasing of tail for weeks, removal of timing cover and eventually having to start over with a fresh short block/used, to get a fresh start.

* KEPT my LCE Steel guide timing kit and installed...plastic Rock Auto Kit(they rarely even sell those, and Tod and Ted of Engnbldr just throw them away!)

* Poorly bored and honed the cylinders

* Left the original 254K mile Guides in and ALL the original Valves, including exhaust

* Took my original crank to 30/20, didn't do it very well and at 5K I was already showing so much bearing wear that the crank could not be polished and reused

TERRIBLE experience, and it's very sad, as they were once one of the most respected builders/machinist org's in the State! The same guy who drives for them and picked up my motor was building my head when I stopped by to drop off the timing kit that never made it into my motor.

1490$ later,.... WOW, I was TICKED!

If you know what I've been through with this rig, over just THE MOST ridiculous/very rare gremlins and consequences of OTHERS doing terrible work that I HAD to fix?>>> Well, then you'd know why I'm so ANAL about trying to get even this 'cause of high nox', not just the passing test, RESOLVED! lol.

Random note; Sure hope I don't need a new EGR and CAT! Have a plan and I'll lay it out tomorrow.. But at this point, I'm exhausted, ya know? lol.

I WANNA GET BACK TO SOME OF THIS.... AFTER TWO YEARS OF THIS CRAP! lol....