Yeah, at least they will know needs to be changed/altered/fixed to not run afoul of the laws in the testing requirements for 'modifications'.

 

Yeah, I wonder too, lol. And yes, they will be able to. I just REALLY try hard to avoid that, at all costs(cost being the key word)/taking it in.

I guess I can try that FI-80+ stuff and see what it says. Not gonna hurt nuthin, lol. Is it saying "short out E1-T ANDDDDDD put the multi-meter in VF-E1" simultaneously? That would help me get started, lol.

 

OK....................... break in the monotony OF THIS CRAP! lol.....

Lately, I've been so used to just doing "the bare minimum" for myself to eat... Portion controlling everything, etc. ... Cuz my clients that I cook for have to have a pretty much fixed menu at this point with my life like it is right now....... SOOOO, today, I said, 'FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGETABOUTIT! lol... Went and Grabbed some Top Quality meat.. RACK O-LAMB! lol.... Did a fat tater and sour cream with some sauted spinach, red onion and garlic in creamery butter and coconut oil, then remembered, "HEY, I just made some Red Jalepeno Pepper Jam last week... AND IT'S ON! lol>>>>



Not sure why the pic is so red... it's PERFECT Medium Rare.... to the Degree, trust me! lol. anyway, MAN that was good... And as the old Mennen Aftershave Commercial used to say, ...........'THANKS, I needed that!', lol...

Thanks again for all the chiming in, guys.. I appreciate it much! And I know, it's hard to figure everything out over the computer, lol. This stuff should be a lil easier to pinpoint.. but I might not have what I need on hand. We'll see, I'll ALWAYS try til I'm out of options/or about to jump off a STEEP cliff! lol.

 

Well guys, ...I've been checking everything out, from AFM to CTS, etc, .... but it seems to all check out. (still have to check the TPS, just havn't got to it yet).

I've been trying to get a grip on the testing of the 02 in the FSM. I found my picture copies of an FSM for 87's.. I borrowed the book from the dealer-foreman, took it home and took pictures, one page at a time. Found it easier than scanning... In the 87FSM, pages FI-69 and FI-70, it covers 02 testing, using the various methods it shows. I used PAINT shop to put in some text, and I'm REALLY confused as to why it's telling me what it is on the second page. I KNOW, it could just be lazy due to it's location... But I can't figure why it's telling me, "Unjump T-E1 and apply the MM to VF and E1, run at 2500RPM, if voltage is above 0V.... REPLACE THE 02 SENSOR"????? Doesn't click, man... anyone please interject? >>>




Did I skip something crucial? Seems like it told me if it's less than 8 times in 10 seconds, move down, test for voltage with jumper removed and VF-E1 hooked up to MM... and it shouldn't read any voltage???

Ahhhhh lol.

 

OK, It's not that I'm not understanding the lot of it... But, more so, checking to be sure I'm coming to the right conclusion.......

Here is some "PAINT" edited photos, the same ones I just posted..... With my results........




What I'm wondering is, ...'WHY IN THE HECK does it say "If more than 0 Volts, replace 02 Sensor?".... I've not seen one check where it isn't supposed to measure voltage when those are plugged in.

YES, I see that it's possibly lazy... not tilting the meter quickly enough.....(I used both meters, and the dial one worked for the VF-E1 testing this time) ......but isn't it supposed to read some voltage with the VF-E1 plugged into and E1-T jumper DISCONNECTED????

I can't move on until I get this right. I mean, if I AM reading it right, maybe it's revealing that the 02 is lazy where it is... SOMETHING, ...but I don't know enough about the relevant relationships, etc., to make an assumption like that. All I THINK I know at this point is that it's telling me 'replace the 02 sensor' with the testing I've done so far. From the point that I saw it was less than 8 times in 10 seconds(Watched the dial jump 6-7 times with a timer set up and just kept starting at 10-20-1.30, etc., then 10 seconds from there... Always seemed to come up with 6-7 times, definitely not 8... but close, ya know?). Am I missing a step? Looking right past something up there? Please let me know what you think, guys? I'm not really sure.

Hey guys..... "LCE Header on 87 22RE/02 Location issue" seems to be a FAIRLY common problem. Obviously, as I mentioned, not EVERYONE ordering them is in CA, nor having issue with smog testing... AND, well, I can't be sure it IS my issue.. But seeing that the 02 signal swing is slower than it should be... (back and forth 6-7 times in 10 seconds), and seeing that my voltage reading was off(??? I still don't know if I did that right ).... I can't be sure, but it's VERY possible that my changing to this header/2.25" exhaust to the very back, etc., ...it's costing me on the NOX portion of testing.

I suspect that most people who might be still reading this thread are just don't have any answers.... But I HAVE to figure this out, so I just keep searching, ya know? (I can't just take it in yet, cuz I have to drop it in the morning and leave it all day... It's a busy and trusted shop for 'smog repair'... so until I can get a ride, I'm stuck trying to learn as much as I can)...

Here's one example/quote from another thread... mtnyota, I believe whom I've seen on here, says, >>>>>>

"I had a problem passing with my 85 22re with a LCE header, but I was failing on NOx. I tried a bosch 02 and it didn't fix the problem. When hooked up to a scope up to it it was switching too slow. If you ran the engine at like 4000RPM for awhile it would get hot enough to work for a little while. After that I swapped in a 4 wire heated Denso 02 sensor from a 88 22re. This dropped my Nox."

It doesn't go on to explain how it's installed... But I'm tempted to just slap a factory manifold back in there(where the 02 is right before the collector, just below/to the side of the booster, MUCH closer to the head........ BUT, then I'm torn as to whether it would be smarter to just get a heated 02 sensor/less work as well?(Not to mention the performance I might lose by losing the LCE header so I can pass?) Also, as Roger pointed out, my Air/Fuel Ratio(LAMBDA) is at 14.87;1, .... which is lean as he said. I don't want lean... I want 14.7;1! lol.

If anyone sees a WELL DOCUMENTED thread on adding a heated 02 sensor to the LCE set up... pass it along, please? I might add a restrictor plate at the collector as well... It sure seems possible that it's adding to my issues(Especially since Roger did those things, and, as far as I know, did NOT add a heated sensor, and he passed 4 times now with the LCE header)... BUT, I can't be sure, I'll have to check.... I think Roger's LCE header for his 85 is the older version they did which placed the 02 Bung on the actual header. This would HUGELY effect the way his 'restriction plate at the collector' would heat up the 02/along with creating more of the much needed backpressure.

I suppose it's possible that with Grego(92 22RE/LCE header with 2 02sensors and EGR cooling and EGR temp sensor system... unlike my prehistoric one).. that he's doing fine on NOX because; He has a heated 02 and more Advanced EGR system

WHAT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND is this; WHY DON'T I HAVE A C.E.L. if the 02 is lazy and putting out voltage when it's not supposed to? As far as I understand it... The ECU CAN NOT effect the 'output' of the 02... The 02 only READS AND DELIVERS signal, right??????????????????????????

For the heck of it, I'm going to put in my old 02 Sensor and see what I get from it, lol. I mean, why not... I'm a whole weekend away from getting a pro to look at it,.... and if ANYONE can give me some proper tricks to try, I WILL, I PROMISE! lol.

Thanks!

PS> when the FSM says, "should fluctuate 8 or more times in 10 seconds".. I know Fluctuate means 'to shift back and forth uncertainly'....But I just can't seem to figure out in my head, does the FSM's "FLUCTUATE" mean "to one side and then back" is "ONE" of the 8 times? Not each time it moves, but rather, each time it does a full cycle of back and forth( I KNOW, forgive me, lol... Just asking, cuz if it's EACH time it moves ONE way... then my count would be 12-14, lol) ... Yeah, I know.... but I'm trying, right? lol.

 

Do you happen to have the papers from the second test. I'll let my uncle see them he's a smog guy haha

 

Sure, I'll scan them today... But they're virtually 99% identical, Vang

Can you show him the first one for now? It's almost the same exact numbers, within 1-2% difference as I mentioned........

PM'ing you now, just to keep on track here, k?

 

I've always used a full cycle i.e. peak to peak, but the language above seems to indicate high to low to low to high each count as one. Can you drop your old sensor back in and run the test above on it as a comparison?

Some good O2 info here while geared to OBDII, it helped me understand...see operation section.
http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/4Runner/tech/OBDII_ECU/

Did you have to install an extension wire on the o2 sensor wire when the headers went in? If so, have you taken a look at the wire and splices? Read somewhere where a guy had a few stands of the shielding mixed in with the signal wire and it cause a problem.

 

I'm going to read that link, ..thanks. Just really quick...... / then \ on the needle equals one? I'm just assuming that 'EACH TIME IT HITS THE HIGH END, THAT'S ONE'.... is that what you understand?

Thanks, RW!!!!! I am really stressed out, and having ANYTHING is helpful. Roger shot me a couple responses too... Just trying to make more sense of the pic he sent(I'll copy and paste it here... I've seen him post it on other threads, shouldn't be a problem to grab it from my PM though).

SOOOOO, I stopped by The Smog Repair shop I will end up using if need be. The guy was nice enough to talk to me for about 5 minutes, but his shop was TOTALLY slammed! lol....

He basically looked at the test results and in combination with my quick run down of EVERYTHING, including the modulator replacement/timing drop/how it ran crappy after the new modulator, initially/the readings on the 02/ and his response was;

"This is a tough one... Actually, believe it or not, as Scope/5way reading experts.... we LOVE OBD1.... It eliminates so many culprits. Your 87 DID have some with EGR Temp Sensors and the 02 on the down pipe... BUT, most didn't. I gotta tell ya, with high nox, I ALWAYS look to EGR first... 95% of the time, it might appear to operate properly for people, but upon further inspection, we sometimes find the block plate is all stopped up, etc. Seeing as you COULD get it to stall fairly easily at 3500rpm.... It's not likely TERRIBLY bad, but can't say til we re-route some things with a scope in there and then rule it out/conclude it's bad. Now, what you told me, about the 'New CAT' but running lean and having blown the HG, as short of a time as it was.... You have no idea how many times we've had CAT's, even less than a year old, FAIL... Why? Because 'lean condition' will kill a CAT faster than anything! That doesn't mean it's your CAT... they're too expensive to throw one in for 'the heck of it'.. So we would simply test before and after the CAT to find out how well it's working. See, if your nox has been high for these 8-10K miles since you first put it in.... It could EASILY be toast enough to cause you to fail. BUT, if you add the 02 issue, etc. ... My recommendation would be to AT LEAST have the 02 welded into the collector portion of that header.... I know, CARB was there when they were built.. But these old rigs, rebuilt or not, have tempers... Sensors might even be new, but wiring is not, etc... .It all adds up.. SO, as I was saying, I'd at least put the 02 back into the HEADER, itself. To be honest, Mark, I've seen plenty of DThorley headers with the 02 right in the 3&4 pipes fail, with a brand new 02.... It's a lot to do with backpressure, as you said,... but it's often more of just a 'TOTALLY CONFUSED' or 'PRESSED BEYOND IT'S PRESET LIMITS' ECU/02/AFM/TPS relationship. You gain flow, but that reads as 'really cool', OR 'RICH', which then turns into the 02 telling the ECU at 25MPH at 2500 rpm... "LEAN IT OUT"...... YEP, I'd move it, what could it hurt? And do it before you come to me, because I wanna either verify to you, "it'll pass now, no problem" OR, "ok, we have another problem, all together"... Why come here with the 02 being lazy, only to have me tell you, ..."Mark, the 02 is lazy"? Right?"

I agreed, but now I'm trying to decide whether to do what Roger did with the restriction plate AND the 02 in a different location.... Or just slap in my Factory Exhaust system to the CAT, then re-test and see where it's at???? All depends on what they want to charge for the adding of a bung to my header collector area, etc. I'd rather go that route, obviously.. But he's also told me, "Even a year of an 02 running lazy and lean and then getting hit by even a short lived HG failure.... It could be done. Need to do a bench test". lol. HEY, at least I have something to work with, thanks to you guys and a smog guy... But furthermore, I'm not dropping it off today only to have the smog guy tell me, "Yeah, you gotta move this 02 sensor back up the line and fix this and that and this and that", first, right? lol.

He seemed to think that the CAM, etc., all that shouldn't effect it enough to have such a high NOX(which he's said he's seen MUCH higher, even into the 2700 Range)..... And said, "Which usually means your CAT is at least doing SOMETHING. But then again, with these perfectly tuned.... they sometimes can even pass smog w/out a CAT... BARELY, but I've seen it happen in 'repair station testing' ".

For the heck of it, I pulled out my old exhaust, manifold and pipe. The holes in the pipe are 'close to the collector' and I think a couple back from there. They've been welded before. I'm getting pictures up now;>>>>

My stock piping/Manifold in the garage;

The downpipe is like this on both sides of the pipe just below the 2-into-1 portion after the collector.



Here is the manifold. The area on the right/along that seam, is where I THOUGHT it was leaking, ...but unfortunately didn't get video back when I did the seafoam test ... Anyway, here's a pic of the mani I have(original)....



PS> The 'WET' is PB Blaster, soaking on the studs that I would have to remove/replace.

************************************************** ******

So, ......... I wanna do this the most logical way possible. Whatcha all think(according to what the smog guy said and what options I have?)

 

BTW, I noticed that my original 02 sensor had shielded wire right off the 02, up to the connector, then shielded on the other wire/opposite side of the other connector. The new one? No shielded wire. I added shielded wire all the way up to the connector, rather than using only the LCE wire provided. I still have the original connectors, etc. Just curious why they did away with that in the replacement Dealership-OEM 02 Sensors from Denso(maybe Denso stopped using it all together?) Does anyone have an idea if your 02 has shielded wire right up to the body of the 02 itself???? Thanks

 

I would count high to low to high as one, but I don't know if that is what the book means above. Head scratcher....

 

Ok, then that's right.... 6-7 times in 10 seconds. MAX. And I still don't know why it's saying what it does on the FSM there... Did you read that, RW? Drags me from "over 0V" DOWNnnnnnnnnnnnn, lol... to "replace 02".

I'm going to test again and making sure I'm running it at 2500...... FOR 90 SECONDS! lol. I think it's saying to disconnect the E1-T jumper, then race it again for 90 seconds at 2500, then test VF-E1 alone without jumper on T-E1................ And yet, I still don't get why, after 90 seconds getting hot, holding it at 2500rpm...etc., that it would not measure some voltage....?????????????

 

Yeah, that last unshorted T and E1, Vf and E1 voltage zero, then replace is strange. That's why I was wondering if you have your old O2 sensor to stick in as a comparison after resetting he ECU. I'll see what I can turn up on the Vf/E1 0V deal.

Check out the VF section on page 2....it gives the meaning of the test procedure above:
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h27.pdf

http://alflash.com.ua/vf1.htm

 

Wow, I just read LOTS of that... very interesting. And, .... well, it seems according to that that my voltage is VERY much near the normal range on the VF(voltage feedback)... But reading that on the FSM... still confusing me. I can't see how it could EVER have 0V at 2500rpm after 90 seconds of getting the CAT/02 HOT... WTH? Lol.

I also just read something from Roger, ..... need to clarify this, whether it's an issue with mine or not;

Roger's 02 is IN THE #4 Header Runner... Not 24" back, like mine is from stock. His is reading #4, alone, true... but that's reading from a MUCH hotter spot... And while it's ideal to have it in the collector area or 4-2 area(like with the factory exhaust manifold).... it's still gotta be better than 2 FEET back where it's had time to cool quite a bit.(at least in principal that makes sense to me, lol). ALSO, Roger has a block plate that I THINK is in his collector... that might work for more EGR feeding backpressure for me... But I would think it would DECREASE the heat my CAT and 02 can reach, no?) I wrote him to ask where everything is, just to be sure. I hate to bother him, but just trying to make sense of things and figure out if certain stuff WILL work for him, but not necessarily for me(with the way things are set up at the moment anyhow).

I feel like LCE sold FAR more headers for post 88 rigs, .... so it just made it's most common model 02 mounting location in the backpipe, before the CAT. After all, those 02 sensors are heated, where mine is not. So, by the time the smog guy get's my rig on the dyno, starts revving it up, it's had minutes to cool off the 02/CAT action. AND, ... that's why I keep thinking, "LCE 02 location" has some possible effect... because even retarding my timing and replacing the modulator(which did effect SOMETHING, lol) didn't change my test #'s hardly AT ALL!

I want it sussed away(whatever is wrong WITH THE RIG), before I think about putting in a new CAT, etc., ya know? Sure, this CAT may be hardly effective by now due to circumstances aforementioned.. But again,... wouldn't combustion temps come down due to 3-4 degrees retarding of the timing, anyhow????? And thus, wouldn't that effect, even a lil, the NOX? Not saying the CAT is good.. just saying 'I DON'T KNOW IT'S BAD', lol.

I made an appt. with Paul/Smog Repair place/ for 9am Monday... At least that way, I can have him rule out/verify my CAT as being a problem/no problem, ya know? He gave me a card for a shop that will quickly weld in a bung for my 02 on the collector portion of the header, if I want to. It HAS to be at least a lil helpful.

YES, RW, sorry bout that... >>> I will try the other 02 out... Just have been stuck inside for a while.

THANKS!

 

No prob, it was just an idea and I have LOTS of those when I'm NOT doing the work. lol
If nothing else, we've dug up some good reference material in this thread.

It looks like the O2 sensor fails at the bottom of FI-70 because it does not respond the proper number of times in 10 seconds because if it recorded 0V that would indicate a engine code. I wonder it the slow response is simply because it's not heated up enough?

 

Here's a paint shop pic of my head/Exhaust port side. I know some 22R heads have round exhaust ports(isn't that 83 and under?) and then they went oval/pear shaped, like with mine. In this pic, are the EGR ports the 1-a, b, c, and d? Or are they some other ones? Seems it would be the 1-a, b, c and d. Roger was explaining to me.... Just shot him this pic to see for sure. If it is as I suspect, the gasket is cut oval just like that, but I can't remember the header. Roger was saying that some LCE headers have a bead right there, he took his down to increase flow. Makes a lot of sense! lol... BUT, not sure if it makes sense in MY application, ya know? lol.

Here's the pic of my head........

 

EDIT! I rushed Roger/4Crawler, regarding "where's these EGR ports on the exhaust side you're talkin about?" stuff, lol.... SO; in the picture above, "3 AND 4" are where the EGR backflow ports are located. Exhaust gases are pulled back in there(via backpressure, which makes more sense just visualizing it... Has to be backpressure to force the EGR gases back through there, right?).. They then go to the back of the head and over and out the lower EGR port on the intake side/up through the EGR and then back through the plenum. The EGR diaphragm is activated(from what I can tell) by the modulator, which is what that lil t-pipe off the side of the EGR goes right to.

If I'm going to go with the theory that the 02 being too far back, with the LCE header, is a problem, then I'll most likely be having a bung put in the collector area of the header, where all 4 pipes meet. It makes NO sense to be where it is, considering how a 1 wire 02 Sensor works. For Grego and Ian and others, it makes PERFECT sense, because they're dealing with heated 02 sensors.......

Now, at that point, I have to consider that backpressure could be a problem as well........I would have to choose which route to go with this....

1. It looks like it's SUPER easy to create a restriction plate, like here... at post 283>> http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=1119.270 (just scroll down a lil)....

2. BUT, since I might not want to leave in that restriction plate, .. I might just want go with the stock size pipe TO the CAT and then stay at 2" After the CAT, to the muffler,... then 2.25-2.50" out the back. I would think that restriction alone would cause just enough backpressure to 'help the EGR' a lil and keep it from

One thing I might HAVE to have done at a smog or other capable "OSCILLOSCOPE" bearing shop.... Test my CAT. They can probe before and after a CAT and really see how much it's doing. Of course, they could just test my pipe at the back and see what I'm running in O2, CO2, NOX, HC and CO.... AFTER I do the 02 Move and such. What I mean is, I might not need a CAT, JUST YET, right? Sure, the HG blowing at first start of this motor might have just done it in, especially after running lean for a few thousand miles as well.... That KILLS a CAT faster than anything, according to the Smog Repair dude I spoke with. "Lean = CAT DEATH" lol... BUT, ... it's probably not 180$ to FIND OUT if it's bad, so maybe it's worth a shot to see.

Once I move the 02 bung up to the pre-Collector area on the header, I would likely re-test my 02 and see if it's quite as lazy as it is back where it is now. I know, it's only 29$ for another from sparkplugs.com... but WHY buy it if I don't need it, right??? lol. If I see it's sped up a bit, then I would BET DOLLARS TO DONUTS, ... it's getting the heat it needs and now will send THE PROPER MESSAGE to the ECU, which then directs Injector timing/pulse rate.

YA FEEL ME? hahaha.

 

Chef, man it's too bad you exhaust is not bolted up. It'd be easy to make up a restictor plate like that and a couple of flat gaskets and just insert it after the cat for the test. It would hardly be noticeable and the back pressure seem to be what the EGR needs.

It will be interesting what Paul turns up especially on the O2 sensor. Geesh, I hope you are not restricted on where you can re-position the O2 location too by some silly CA, IMO, rule. Staying tuned...

 

I was a little off with what I remember doing for my LC header about 10 year ago, but looking at my spare head and header gasket, I figured it out:
- http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...ndex.shtml#EGR

Basically remove the little web of gasket (colored in red below)between the #2 and #3 posts and the EGR passages:

 

OH CRAP, ...I hadn't thought of that. I might have to give Bob at the smog test station a call. He would probably know. i can't see why moving it where it's supposed to be would be a problem... BUT YES, CARB has made LESS sense to me on a number of things....OFTEN! lol.... I will probably either do a restriction plate or change that pipe orrrrrrrrrrrr.... just put my stock exhaust back on? I'm serious... this is OLD! lol. But hey, I'm learning a lot and, well, BTW..... I would BET, if I'm leaning in the right direction as to the 'WHY's in this case.... I MIGHT just end up saving someone else from premature engine failure due to lean condition FOR DAYZZZZZ! lol.

THANKS, Roger! I corrected my post here, now will do it on the build thread... Sorry bout that.

Yeah, that makes LOTS of sense... especially that the Header molding is different than the stock manifold. LCE makes some fine products... But I would BET it's not 'better' in 'EVERY' way than Toyota's, right? lol. I'm going to take some picutres of my stock manifold and show everyone the difference in the two, either way, ok? (differences in the porting/routing for that exhaust gas re-circulation between the header and stock MUST be at least a lil different. I imagine that toyota had 'MORE MATERIAL' to cut into, right?)