ok well i bypassed the AFM and took it completely out of the rig....it ran worse. I didnt do the EGR test right because I was trying to do it while at an idle, obviously wrong now that i read your previous post...so ill have to do that tomorrow. I now have NO codes but it still loads up after idling a while, also ive driven the rig about 170 miles and i still get a little blue smoke when i take off from a stop and on deceleration using the compression of the motor, im beginning to wonder if the machine shop installed the valve stem seals right when the put it together....its not a ton of smoke but its noticeable, im guessing with cast rings, they should have seated already.... this crap is pissing me off, lol.

 

I hate to say this, ....but being through what I have, Rocker? I WOULD PERSONALLY be on that end of the testing like a wet blanket, asap. FIRST, of course.... you have to rule out what you can within the EFI system, etc. HOWEVER, ...every rpm of the motor, IFFFF something is wrong, ....well, you get the picture. Just because they used Cast rings doesn't mean they machined it properly, either.... ASK ME ABOUT MY YEAR OF HELL and how I know this? hahaha. Ok, don't, you probably know anyhow, lol.

See, the NEW machinist I dealt with, ....well, if I had ANY problem and called him, he would say, I'M SURE OF IT, ..."GET DOWN HERE, let's figure it out". I KNOW, for a fact(cuz I watched it while I helped machine and assemble my motor there)... he would straight out tell me, immediately(if he could tell fairly quickly)..."Mark, it's gotta come out, I'm sorry man....for some reason,..........." yadda yadda... You get the point. Is there any way for you to do this? Drive to them? I mean, if you didn't have smoking or likewise issues before this, with millions of miles on it, .....it's at least POSSIBLE that nothing in your EFI is bad.

Yes, I would try that, if it's feasible.... if not, it probably wont hurt anything to just dig a lil deeper. It's just that, I can also tell you from experience..... "I chased my tail for months, dealers trying to figure it out, etc., and it ended up being a waste of time because it was 1. a TERRIBLY ground orig. cam that got stuffed back in there... 2. a reusing of all 8 of my valves, including exhaust, with NO new guides...just seals".... And YETTTTTTT, ..... I had not a single puff of smoke, go figure, eh?

I still think it's fuel/maybe ign related even....... I just hate to see you waste time on stuff you don't have to. Ya know?

PS> The way I found out it was 'mechanical' ??? This respected diagnosing dude in CA took it in, hooked up propane to it, had me disconnect the fuel pump and more, then ran it..... it STILL RAN THE SAME! That's how we got to "CAM, AT LEAST!"

Try those things I posted if you can, do a lil more research on them if possible, and then we'll go from there, yeah?

 

if my valves arent adjusted right, could that cause any of my problems ive been talking about?

 

I may run a compression check just for the hell of it, ill do that this weekend sometime and post my results, i DO feel like im chasing my tail sucks

 

So, just for the heck of it, i called the machine shop and told him the problems i w2as having with the blue smoke on deceleration and stuff and asked him what all they had done to the head...he says:
Head resurfaced, ground the valves and seats, installed new seals, DIDNT replace the guides...he said that he had never seen the guides go bad in a 22re head before, BUT he also said that maybe a seal was damaged when they assembled it BUT he said they would take care of it and put in new seals and guides AT NO CHARGE, obviously kindof a pain in my @$$ but at least it wont cost me more money except the gaskets of course. Still gonna do a compression check before i pull the head though. At least hes willing to help me out and not say "you must have put it together wrong" lol.

It still doesnt take care of my running rich problem, but should take care of the blue smoke issue.

 

Just to set your mind at ease(to a point).....

1. It's NOT uncommon, at all, to re-use/after grind, the valves(Although,...MOST shops I've spoken to have told me, "I NEVER, ever re-use the exhaust valves.... especially on those with 250K Miles and such")
2. It's NOT uncommon to re-use the guides. They just measure the clearance, call it a day.
3. Seals CAN be done, even by the best guys, and occasionally one is bad/gets tweaked(NOT COMMON, ...but it happens)

To be honest, I can't remember where exactly I read that MANY shops change out valve seals without removing the head(In fact, many DIY'ers do so, using a special spark plug hole fitting with air compressor, maintaining 100PSI at least(?) and thus, keeping the valves from dropping out while the retainers and springs are removed.

First of all....... gotta ask,

*** Did the aforementioned shop say the head needed to be removed FOR them? Or did they say, "Bring it in, we'll fix it".........???? And if so, did they mention swapping out the seals w/out pulling the head?

 

No i'd be pulling the head, they're just a small machine shop with no space for a vehicle there, i suppose i could do the seals without pulling the head all the way off, it would just be kind of hard, i would have to make spacers for the head bolts so that when i take off the rocker arm assy i can tighten the head bolts back up because without doing so would pop the head up off the gasket and i would have to pull it to do a new HG anyways, i almost wanna just pull the whole thing and make them put new guides and seals in it just for peace of mind, maybe i should just install new seals myself without pulling the head and see what i end up with?

 

See, this is where I can only 'GUESS', "Did he MEASURE the guide clearance?", and .... now that I reread your post(sorry, lol), seeing him saying "I will replace THE GUIDES and seals"...... The head's gotta come off, at that point(for the guides and working things to fit JUST right!).... Will ALL that labor be free? Will you be paying for a NEW HEAD GASKET, INTAKE GASKETS, ETC., in spite of the fact that the issue is most likely INSTALLER ERROR????? I might ask him, ..... But if paying for gaskets, myself, meant not having to pull a head, myself, etc., ...then SURE, "here's my card" hahahaha.

Another thing I've been trying to figure out..... My newest machinist I used showed me how loose the valves in the guides were, ESPECIALLY after the guy before me had ground them all, w/out replacing the guides. Still, he did say it's very common, and that the ORIGINAL guides are good quality(OEM), and they're not cheap, either....and why pound out the old ones if they measure out fine?" I think he was telling me "even with all new seals, with guide clearance this sloppy, it's NOT unheard of for even new seals to quickly leak, causing oil to drop right down into the combustion process....it maybe not even noticeably smoke, as it's just enough to cause a chunky rumble in the jungle....but it's vaporizing with the explosion, and getting mostly caught by the CAT....And btw, if that's the case, the CAT nor 02 can take too much of that".... But he also said that there was NO WAY IN HELL that last machinist actually measured the clearance for the valves in the guides. When the new machinist did mine, he went one at a time with my all new OEM equal or better replacement valve set from engnbldr, and individually worked the NEW manganese valve guides AND VAVLES until he got the EXACT numbers he wanted. (They use an indicator that slides in the guide, as well as one that measures the valves). BTW, I got that entire valve set for 54$(all 8), and each manganese guide was 3.48$(machinists cost, he hooked me up). He also SHOWED ME(it's very simple) how he measures the valve springs for effective pressure(I believe ours are rated at 60#).

I don't mean to flood your thread with TOO MUCH info and questions.... But I'm a curious guy, which is why I wound up IN THE machinists shop during much of the process, and even bugged him so much that he let me do some of the machining and most of the assembly, yet still guaranteed the work. I just mean that I would want to know EVERY DETAIL of what they find, etc.

 

Oops, you typed while I was coming back and forth here.... YOUR LABOR? EEEK, yeah, that's what I thought would happen with a head shop.

Well, you don't have to pull the rocker assembly or head bolts, Rocker. You DO, however, have to loosen the adjuster screws and nuts and then slide the rockers over, then compressed air, pull retainers, springs and seals, while maintaining the air. Problem is, DAYUM those retainers are a PITA! lol.

 

No i wont be charged for anything, but im sure ill have to buy the new gaskets, even though the machine shop should buy me new gaskets, i didnt ask if he measured the guide clearances, but from what he said "ive never seen them go bad" i doubt he did, otherwise he would have been able to give me a definite answer yes they were within spec or no they werent and i installed new ones, which obviously didnt happen....

 

I just can't say, Rocker,.... it's totally up to you, but if you're going to have them do guides, then the head has to come off, period, ya know? Even as much work as the seals w/out pulling the head would be, it's a lot less than pulling the head, right? Still, it's not something you've done, right?(replacing seals, head on or off)???

 

I gotta run,...... but just to be clear, you CAN'T be sure the head even needs new guides, or valves.... But you're pretty sure you need new seals? Is that what they said according to your symptoms? I'll be back, gonna think this over more. You should too, lol. Plus, more experienced people will HOPEFULLY chime in with some rebuttal or otherwise useful info, ya know?

 

ok sounds good, im going to pickup new seals tonight throw those in tomorrow after i do a compression test and see what i happens....thanks for all the input i appreciate it. Just to be clear on my part, i dont know exactly what it needs right now, all i know is that a seal could've been damaged upon installation and its possible that the guides are worn simply because it sounds like they didnt even check the clearances. I will do a compression check to make sure its all good across the board, then procede to check the head starting with seals. That is the plan of action

 

so i keep hearing that you cant move the rocker over far enough to get the valve spring off to replace the seal without unbolting the head, is this true, or can it be done?

 

If you loosen the adjuster screws/nuts out, then pull the rocker away from the top of the cam lobe/valve top, you should be able to do one cylinder at a time. BUT, you'll notice that the opposite stroke is tight on the cam even with the adjusters fully removed.... so you'd have to do them in increments, while turning the crank over inbetween to get them on their 'non-active' rotations over the lobes. (make sense?) You just wanna replace the seals one cylinder at a time, then turn the crank a lil to take the rocker fully off the lobe/valve top, then assemble everything, move to the next one after allowing the rocker to slide back over(You'd have to retain it back with tape or zip's, etc.) BUT, ALL THAT SAID, ....I've not done the whole head, including springs, with the rocker assembly still attached,...so maybe "THEY'RE" right, ...whomever they are, lol. I would ask Roger of 4Crawler or maybe Ted of Engnbldr, they would know FOR SHO!

All that said, I'VE NOT done this, and I WOULD be a lil nervous..... but I guess I'd figure, "Well, it's this or pull the whole head,....even I lose power/air pressure and a valve drops, ...oh well, then I'll have to pull the head, it was worth a try"..... And yet, I CAN NOT say that IT WOULD BE WORTH A TRY, Rocker, ...cuz, well, as I said, "Ive NEVER done that!" lol. I just know that some have, ya know? In all reality, pulling the head is not that huge of a deal, it just takes time. But, things can go wrong the second time around with installation, etc., as well, right? It's just somewhat of a Catch22 that you're going to have to weigh all out and decide on your own, after you research a bit...

First of all, you'll need to rent tools, pretty sure(unless you have the right valve spring compressor, etc.). To put the retainer halves back on each side near the top of the valve, ...you need a pic and white grease(the white grease holds the retainer to the pic, while you slap it in place.... And the grease goes on both sides of the retainers, lil dab). All the while you have a valve spring compressor holding down the spring so you can get those seals and the retainers back in........ You'd have to figure out a way to mount the bottom half of the spring compressor for resistance, ya know? (like a C -clamp)...... I don't mean to discourage you from trying, .... I'm just saying, it's NOT a Cake Job, ...not as I work it out in my head, anyhow. Also, compressing the springs might get a lil MORE difficult even as you get toward the rear of the head, especially on the intake side, right?

REALLY do your homework, Rocker.

PERSONALLY, just if it was my situation.... I'd just drive it in to Toyota, ask them for a free diagnosis(what's the worse they could say, NO?) and then just tell them, "I really just need to pin down why I'm smoking, what's the MOST LIKELY culprit".... Then, if it was indeed the head, and they found nothing malfunctioning in the EFI system(most foremans seem to like trying to tackle these...My local one had it for 4 days! Unfortunately, he couldn't find what it was! lol)... then, if they say, "Yeah, it's gotta be AT LEAST the seals"... I'd just pull the head. I mean, if ur shop said, "Yeah, bring it down, we'll do the seals with the head in there"..... Maybe. But I know, they work as quickly as they can on one head then the next on a bench..... stopping and taking a guy a half day to pull all that crap would not likely be worth it to them....that's probably why they say, "Just bring it to us", Rocker, ...cuz it will take them like an hour to do this when you HAND THEM the head, ya know?

Yeah,.......this just sux, period! I feel for ya, man!

 

I've got all the proper tools and I know what I'm doing, I've done stem seals before, just not on a Toyota, like I said I'm just gonna do a compression test and go from there, such a pain in my butt though lol

 

Oh, I'm sure you do..... but I have NO CONCLUSIVE testimony to give you on the subject of "is it possible while still installed on the block?"... I would imagine there would be a thread or two here if it'd been done. Either way, .... A. Yes, you'll get it, and ..... B. YES, IT'S A TOTAL PI-UR-A! lol.

Yeah, a full compression test w/wet test on the second run.... that MIGHT tell ya a bit if the rings are an issue, etc., ya know?

I think you mentioned the Cold Start Injector? Easy test to see if it just runs on or continuously runs would be to drop it in a container with it still attached to the fuel line and connector, after it's warmed up.... if it still runs on in the glass/container,... that could be an issue. Cold Start injector time switch can cause it to always run I suppose as well. Hmmmm, well, you got your work cut out for you either way, ...hope some of it's helpful, and if it sounds wacky, just ask me and I'll double check whatever you're curious about, ahahaha. K?

Have a good weekend, man!

 

Well ill try it out and see what happens, ill post the results as I get them, as far as the cold start injector I pulled it out of the plenum still hooked up to the fuel line and I jumpered the fuel pump and turned the key on and I get no leaking, then when I plug the wiring in still no fuel comes out so I think that shouod be good right? Hey, have a good weekend! Thanks for all your help

 

OK so i did a compression test today, engine warmed up throttle wide open 191,195,192,188 looks pretty darn good to me, so the blue smoke im getting must be the head, maybe the guides or a messed up seal installation. im just going to pull the head and take it to them and make them put new guides and seals in it for me. As far as the running rich, i noticed when i pulled the spark plugs out after letting it idle for a while, that the number 2 and 3 plugs were wet with Fuel, so im leaning towards injector leakage?? does that sound right? should i get them serviced or just buy new ones?

 

First, ....I can't speak as though I know so, but I'm fairly certain that 190-anything is REALLY high for these motors. Depending on the build, but from everything I've read, the readings should be around 165#-180#. Mine is tight, doesn't smoke even a puff, and I'm getting around 170# at 2500miles after rebuild. (MAYBE some bad seals, etc., could cause some leaking into the holes and bring up the compression... Just wanna get some second opinions... And I'll look into it myself, asap).

Second, did you do a wet test on the second try? (As per books instructions, squirt of oil in each hole, repeating the procedure one at a time, comparing second 'wet' readings with the first, then going from there...)

Third, yes, I would have them checked by Witchhunter.com or some other reputable place, maybe you have a walk-in near you in OR? Usually it's the inner stuff's that blow out and allow leaking.... BUT, keep in mind, finding fuel on the plugs doesn't necessarily mean your injectors are leaking.... Rather, it could mean that the timing is way off or that you're really lacking continuous spark in #2 and #3 holes. (Something Ignition related).

Interesting.... I'll ask around asap as to the compression, and I'll think on it myself a lil more.

Totally up to you, Rocker, regarding the pulling of the head before any further digging/diagnosis by a shop, etc. It's a pretty decent task, even though it's straightforward, .... Just wondering if you're CERTAIN you're burning/using oil???

I think I asked, but in case..... Do you have a CAT? Being in OR I would think most don't seeing as there's no smog there, right? The CAT burns up whatever unburned fuel makes it past the combustion process..... and if you've got soaked plugs....and you're NOT certain that oil is being burned up/used...... and if you DO NOT have a CAT, maybe it's just that a decent amount of unburned fuel is making it to the exhaust pipes/muffler and given you that 'CLOUD' after sitting or taking off from idling for a while??? ... Seeing as you've brought that to light.... I might hold off on the pulling of the head, personally.