Slider attachment question (weld/bolt)
#21
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Stop bickering, you're both wrong. No scab plates would mean only the end of a tube is attached to the frame, and the contact area would be approximately Pi*d*thickness of the tube. But I got the information I needed, so thanks everyone.
#22
we're talking about loaded SA frame side. in which case we're right.
the plates would stil cover more area and "weld length" no matter because youd obviously make your plate bigger than your tube dia.
the plates would stil cover more area and "weld length" no matter because youd obviously make your plate bigger than your tube dia.
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I have some input from the bolt-on side of things. I have RB sliders bolted on. My sliders have been well used/abused and I'm beginning to see adverse affects of the way they are bolted on. They were bolted on by drilling mounting holes in the frame and using 4 thread forming bolts per mounting leg (8 bolts per slider).
In my opinion, the frame is just not thick enough to provide enough bearing surface for the threads of the bolts. This is evidenced by the fact that I have had 2 of the bolts tear out of the frame. Also, the force exerted on the sliders is focussed to too small of an area of the frame. This is evidenced by the fact that my frame is pulling where the bolts mount. It is actually bulged out where the sliders mount. Fortunately the way Roger's sliders are designed the force isn't all tension on the bolts so they haven't just ripped off of the truck.
Personally I think the best way to mount the sliders would to weld sleeves in the frame for through bolts with a backing plate on the back side of the frame that matches the plate on the sliders. This would distribute the force the best and allows the sliders to be removeable. This is also overkill for most people and a ton of work.
In my opinion, the frame is just not thick enough to provide enough bearing surface for the threads of the bolts. This is evidenced by the fact that I have had 2 of the bolts tear out of the frame. Also, the force exerted on the sliders is focussed to too small of an area of the frame. This is evidenced by the fact that my frame is pulling where the bolts mount. It is actually bulged out where the sliders mount. Fortunately the way Roger's sliders are designed the force isn't all tension on the bolts so they haven't just ripped off of the truck.
Personally I think the best way to mount the sliders would to weld sleeves in the frame for through bolts with a backing plate on the back side of the frame that matches the plate on the sliders. This would distribute the force the best and allows the sliders to be removeable. This is also overkill for most people and a ton of work.
#26
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Originally Posted by garrett1478
make a |_| shaped bracket which 'wraps' the frame rail, and bolt it all the way through the frame. that's what i plan on doing.
Not to say that this is a bad method. I know it's been used very successfully. No matter how you mount sliders I think you can expect some frame deformation if you abuse them enough.
Last edited by 00Runner; 04-21-2006 at 03:40 PM.
#29
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these are our bolt on mounts, they utilize the u shaped bracket, with bolts over the top of the frame and sleeves to prevent over tightening, the mounts are also predrilled for 3 self tapping bolts, 2 for the face of the frame and 1 for the bottom of the frame, this is in our opinion the best way we have found to bolt a set of sliders on.
if you weld them on be carefull what kind of scab plate you use, straight vertical welds on your frame are a bad idea, the plate should be shaped like a diamond or curvy like the ones in the pic.
I feel that weld ons are more durable in the long run if installed correctly
if you weld them on be carefull what kind of scab plate you use, straight vertical welds on your frame are a bad idea, the plate should be shaped like a diamond or curvy like the ones in the pic.
I feel that weld ons are more durable in the long run if installed correctly
#32
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Originally Posted by 4rnr
But, given the track record of welding armor to frames, (using a plate, as I did when I did mine) I would say there is NO evidence that it is a poor choice. Of course there are stronger methods Im sure, but for those of US who wont be removing the sliders, and dont want to worry about bolts, welding is a fine and clean option.
#33
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Originally Posted by CBIguy
these are our bolt on mounts, they utilize the u shaped bracket, with bolts over the top of the frame and sleeves to prevent over tightening, the mounts are also predrilled for 3 self tapping bolts, 2 for the face of the frame and 1 for the bottom of the frame, this is in our opinion the best way we have found to bolt a set of sliders on.
if you weld them on be carefull what kind of scab plate you use, straight vertical welds on your frame are a bad idea, the plate should be shaped like a diamond or curvy like the ones in the pic.
I feel that weld ons are more durable in the long run if installed correctly
if you weld them on be carefull what kind of scab plate you use, straight vertical welds on your frame are a bad idea, the plate should be shaped like a diamond or curvy like the ones in the pic.
I feel that weld ons are more durable in the long run if installed correctly
One VERY important thing to consider is the design of the sliders. 4Crawler's are supposed to be VERY close to the body (my 4Crawler sliders are right up under the pinchweld) so there is no flexural force (moment, torque, whatever) applied to the frame, and all the mounts have to do really is support the weight of the slider (or you standing on the slider).
I'm also VERY curious as to the "no vertical welds". Is this 'cuz a lot of people can't do pure vertical welds very well? (Bottom to top, not the other way guys!)
#34
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This is a good article on frame welding,...... less typing for me, http://home.4x4wire.com/deddleman/section_welders.html
#35
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Found by using the blinking search button:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/show...vertical+welds
See posts #42 and #46 specifically.
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/show...vertical+welds
See posts #42 and #46 specifically.
#36
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Ummm .. so they're saying spread the HAZ (heat affected zone) over more of the frame? and make longer welds to put more heat into the frame? Seems quite wrong to be, but, hey, I'm just a lowly metallurgist...
No offense to CBI and others, but I think the best way to protect the frame is to use Roger's (4Crawler) design and get the forces transferred right into the body mounts so nothing flexes.
No offense to CBI and others, but I think the best way to protect the frame is to use Roger's (4Crawler) design and get the forces transferred right into the body mounts so nothing flexes.
#37
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Originally Posted by 00Runner
I have some input from the bolt-on side of things. I have RB sliders bolted on. My sliders have been well used/abused and I'm beginning to see adverse affects of the way they are bolted on. They were bolted on by drilling mounting holes in the frame and using 4 thread forming bolts per mounting leg (8 bolts per slider).
In my opinion, the frame is just not thick enough to provide enough bearing surface for the threads of the bolts. This is evidenced by the fact that I have had 2 of the bolts tear out of the frame. Also, the force exerted on the sliders is focussed to too small of an area of the frame. This is evidenced by the fact that my frame is pulling where the bolts mount. It is actually bulged out where the sliders mount. Fortunately the way Roger's sliders are designed the force isn't all tension on the bolts so they haven't just ripped off of the truck.
Personally I think the best way to mount the sliders would to weld sleeves in the frame for through bolts with a backing plate on the back side of the frame that matches the plate on the sliders. This would distribute the force the best and allows the sliders to be removeable. This is also overkill for most people and a ton of work.
In my opinion, the frame is just not thick enough to provide enough bearing surface for the threads of the bolts. This is evidenced by the fact that I have had 2 of the bolts tear out of the frame. Also, the force exerted on the sliders is focussed to too small of an area of the frame. This is evidenced by the fact that my frame is pulling where the bolts mount. It is actually bulged out where the sliders mount. Fortunately the way Roger's sliders are designed the force isn't all tension on the bolts so they haven't just ripped off of the truck.
Personally I think the best way to mount the sliders would to weld sleeves in the frame for through bolts with a backing plate on the back side of the frame that matches the plate on the sliders. This would distribute the force the best and allows the sliders to be removeable. This is also overkill for most people and a ton of work.
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/ForSale/...l#Installation
Also, if the holes have stripped out are near the bottom of the frame, a simple thru-bolt works fine. The lower web of the frame prevents crushing the frame along with a thick washer on the back side. Usually stripped self-tapping bolts are the result of not installing the bolt properly (i.e. hole drilled too large or bolt tightened too much), or by letting the bolt work loose after the intial installation (they should be checked after a few hundred miles of driving) to make sure that the brackets have not worked closer to the frame. This can happen if there is debris (dirt, rust, grease, paint) between the slider bracket and frame that falls out and leaves a small gap between the frame and bracket.
The brackets can also be tack welded as additional support. Some folks have bolted them on then run about an inch of weld bead along the bottom of the bracket to secure them in place. This way the weld can be ground out for slider removal if needed. One customer did this to prevent potential heft , as he works in a large city and often parks out on the city streets during the day. And of course, the bolt-on sliders can also be welded on.
I ran my first set of sliders with self-tapping bolts and had no issues in about 4 years of hard use, including a few Rubicon crossings:
And my current set use the sleeved lower bolts and tapped upper bolts and have worked out very well in 5 years of use on the 'Con, Moab, Fordyce, Hammers and Dusy trails:
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