Hey guys,

I've been contemplating how I'm going to design my new lower control arms. Up until recently I was planning to use RE joints at both ends for maximum and articulation and minimal bind. But, since then I've been thinking about an arm that would incorporate some high strength all-thread with couplers welded inside the tubing. The idea would be that the control arm could turn on the all-thread allowing for an indefinite amount of rotation. Does that make any sense? I was just briefly looking at using the following for the all-thread:

http://www.barnhillbolt.com/acb26/Sh...rodright%2Egif

And this for the couplers welded into the control arm:

http://www.barnhillbolt.com/acb26/Sh...plingnut%2Egif

I've seen some products like this made by ACOS, and read some article in the magazines for a dodge truck that had a system like this. Do you think with the amount of push/pull force on these arms it would still turn on the all-thread? Is this possible?

Chris

 

Sounds like a good way to hog out the threads over time.

I see what you are getting at but think that gain versus the material/design weakness would not make it worthwhile.

If you want max travel, get heims and replace them once a year.

If you want rebuildable, get RE joints or similar. Lots of deflection, but servicable and longer life.

Yes there are rebuildable heim type joints, but I have no experience with them.

 

That's probably true! I wonder what these companies are using that's allowing them to work? but, I wonder if they don't really work that good.

When you say deflection, what exactly do you mean in reference to the RE joints?

Chris

 

I mean twist in the plane of the link at the joint.

Notice there are jam nuts at heimed link ends. It is to prevent the link from doing what you say and ultimately trying to unscrew itself.

 

No worries! I'll stick to the tried and true RE joints for mine, and I hopefully will have plenty of flex using them over the stock bushings.

Chris

 

I agree with Adrian about it being a bad idea to assume the arm will just rotate on the threads to allow more rotation. You won't need any more rotation than what one RE joint will give you anyway. Don't use the threads for more rotation.

I disagree with your opinion to use RE joints on both ends of the arms. One end yes, but not both ends. I have 2 reasons. First, 3 points determine a plane but we all have 4 connecting points on the rear axle (disregarding the panhard bar which is a separate issue). As the axle rotates during flex, it puts some links in tension and others in compression. This means that there has to be some flex in the joints, and I'm not talking about rotational flex like the RE joints will offer. The stock rubber bushings are excellent for allowing forward/rearward flex to allow 4 points on the axle. The second reason is absorbing road vibrations, although this depends on how much you drive your 4Runner on road and how picky you are. And no, I haven't tried it with anything other than at least one end with a rubber bushing, so I don't know how bad it might be. I'd guess 2 RE joints would be not quite as bad as with heims on both ends, which is nearly a solid connection.

Hunt did try upper rear links that had heims on both ends (also custom and built by Spidertrax) but then he broke one of the upper M14 bolts on a difficult trail called Iron Chest a couple years ago.

Bruce and I have already proven that with the Spidertrax rear links (heim on one end, stock rubber bushing on the other end) you'll be able to achieve a lot of rear wheel travel. To utilize it, it would require shocks that could extend down 24" from the stock upper shock mount. But that wouldn't really work since you'd have to build a higher shock mount to allow for the shock's minimum compression length. So you don't need more rotational flex than that on the joints.

Another thing is the size of the RE joints. I looked into those before I designed the original custom lower Spidertrax links, but the RE joints wouldn't fit in the stock frame mounts with the proper rating of the joint and bolt and trying to use all the rotation of the joint. If you use a joint that's sized too small, it'll fit but you're sure to destroy the joint or the bolt. If you use a large enough joint, you'll need to re-build the frame mount around that size joint.

I hate heims. I've replaced mine once a year since they wear out. I agree with the goal of trying to use an RE joint on one end although there's a bunch of other work to get it to fit properly.

 

Chris, what about just going to rear leafs?

 

It's definitely an option, but I don't know much about it. Honestly, I think with longer lower control arms and relocated shocks, I could gain 6-12" of travel in the rear if I do it right and the current springs will handle the droop, which they may not. I don't know yet!

Chris

 

You'll need to have something that's welded to the top to hold the springs in place, or another idea is on some Land Rover's I've seen that have a cone welded to the top and when the spring unseats when drooped the cone keeps it in place and allows it to fall back into place. Not sure if that makes sense? I'll try to find a pic.

 

Yes, I've seen it both ways, and I'll design it so that the spring is still attached, because an uncontroled droop does nothing but provide a good RTI. If the wheel was no pressure from the spring, it's pretty much useless, almost. I want to maximize the travel, but I want it to be useful at the time time. I know just from relocating my shocks, I can gain an extra 3-4" of droop, even with the stock arms. So, I think with longer lower control arms and RE joints, it will add at least double that, plus some probably.

Chris

 

I agree with you about having pressure on the spring. Can't wait to see what you do!

 

Good luck Chris. After wheeling the front Alcan leafs, I can not wait to rip that factory crap out from the rear and mount up a set of rear alcans.

I love these leafs. With leafs you won't have to move the gas tank, the alxe stays much more centered. I also have the rear lifted to 4.5" with OME FZJ-80 shocks and it really goes to town, but the front with the Alcans is just so much nicer.

I have 12" Bilstein 5150 shocks to go out back, I really like those shocks as well. Generic application shocks with various valving.

 

So, does this mean you've wheeled the SAS now? I've been out of the loop for a little while on your project, but I'd sure love to see the pics and vids if you have any.My reason for moving the tank is 100% because I drag it all over rocks, which has prevented me to continue the line many times in the past. With the tank moved, I won't have that problem as much. I would be interested, however to see how your rear is setup now?Yeah, I haven't even begun with the rear suspension change, because I have to finish the tank relocation, install the FROR crossmember, cut out the stock crossmembers, and then the next step will be the rear suspension. I'm not sure yet, because I still have to make the front skid and front bumper too. We'll see when the time comes.

Chris

 

I have wheeled it alot. But due to all the negatism I have got from a small group, I really don't have much desire to share.

I'll e-mail you some pics. It is as expected, 2 streight axles the tries never leave the ground.

 

Post the pics Steve, forget about the negative folks, or e-mail them to me too


dragr@charter.net

 

Where are you relocating the shocks to? And what shocks are you going to use?

 

That's awesome Steve! I'm glad it worked out so well for you. A new product might have changed my mind to eventually do a spring under like yours, instead of spring over, but it's totally all up in the air at this point.

Chris

 

it's times like this when people that are smart get berated by the morons....

i have heard stories of shaefer .. and i gotta say, shaefer is cool

 

Hey Steve, admittedly "I don't know you from Adam" as the saying goes, I'm more active on the UK Hilux Surf forum but when I'm on here I've always enjoyed reading your posts and following the progress of your projects, love your site too and just wish I could afford some of your products, but I think the carriage to Ireland would kill me!
Anyway keep doing what you do best, and don't be swayed by any begrudgers.
I reckon you bring a lot to this forum, and would hate to think of any group of people putting you off.

 

so what end should have the bushing and which should have the joint if two joints will rid too rough?