Works by temp, just like the IACV, ... the CSI works through the CSI-Time Switch... bi-metallic valve thingy... Not sure what temp it starts to shut down at... 96*F or so like the IACV? I think it's actually shut off pretty quick... 30 seconds or so? Nothing in the book, eh?

 

Just a refresher, k?

1. Are you getting spark when it does this?
2. Are you now saying you're pretty sure the injectors aren't GETTING juice/voltage when it's doing this?
3. Did you pull the CSI after you saw that the Injectors aren't getting voltage... and then try to let the CSI fire(and did you see it 'jetting' fuel out the other side of itself?)

I thought there was a couple things, like "No Fuel" or "No Voltage to Injectors" that shut off the spark.... But it might actually be, "NO spark, so it shuts off the fuel"... not sure.

I'm really sorry, man... I wish I could HANDS ON HELP YA!

 

First off mark I appreciate you and everyone else's input. The way I was told to test the injectors showed no pulse but I may not have tested them properly, with the Plenum off I will retest the with a noid light if I can find one. On a side note a buddy loned me a different computer yesterday didn't act any different still wouldn't start but it threw different codes, nock sensor, AFm, and another that I don't remember, thought it was strange and forgot to mention it. He told me it may not have worked becouse I did actually mount it, any truth to that? Anyway back on the road for a few days atleast, so wont have any news for awhile. Thanks again everybody.

 

ON the ECU.... I documented this very thing(possibly.. IF it's the same thing>>>) I put an ECU in there that was for an 88.... it immediately threw a knock sensor, 02 and AFM code. The AFM would come and go... but the KNock and 02 stayed on. It ran fine...but nonetheless, it was sucking more gas due to being forced to stay in open loop.

Sorry you have to leave, man! But gotta earn the cabbage, I feel ya! BE SAFE OUT THERE, BROTHER!

 

Ok, Jason...............

1. I know you're on the road, and I know that you're going to have your son send off the injectors(all 5) to the witchhunter.com for servicing, etc.

2. I know that you're, so far, coming to these realizations/symtoms....

.....A. You have a 'WONT START' issue/when issue arises
.....B. It makes no difference if it's been sitting 3 weeks or hot, the "WONT START" issue occurs when it feels like it, seemingly unrelated to anything obvious via 'signs of' Ambient Temp, Coolant Temp, etc.
.....C. It almost ALWAYS, when it first develops it's "WONT START" symptom, sputters momentarily, then goes directly to NOTHING IN THE WAY OF 'G0-GO'(NO combustion, thereafter)
.....D. You recently removed the plenum, where you noted, "POOLS of fuel in the intake channels".... And, you've noted, previously, "When I pulled the plugs during the "WONT START" symptoms, the plugs WERE soaked with fuel.
.....E. When you checked for spark during "WONT START" symptoms, you only checked the wires(Which WERE, indeed, hot)..., you did not check to see if the PLUGS, while connected to plug wires, were 'Throwing hot spark'.
.....F. You need to conclude whether your CSInjector, while the engine is cranking, is running on/throwing a stream of fuel w/out intermission and continuously, pertaining to, "If I crank it over with the CSI connected to the fuel line, CSI OUT of the plenum, the CSI does NOT/DOES shut off after cranking over the starter for over 30-45 seconds")??? IS that enough to know? Not sure yet, I'm searching as to "how long should the CSI remain pulsing?"..
.....G. You also need to know, "When the motor is FULLY warm, while experiencing 'WONT START' symptoms, ... is the CSI continuing to send fuel into the plenum?" (CSI-Time Switch?)
************************************************** **************

I'm now reading the FSM, Jason. Beginning on page FI-12, it gets into "Engine wont start/Cranks 'OK' " portion of 'diagnosis of EFI problems/troubles'.

Within that first few pages, ....Well, here you go.....




The next page, ..well, it's self explanatory in it's title. Not sure if you had "AFTER FIRE", but I thought you'd said so, "couple times", and also, "that it's VERY rich, even though it's not smoking like before"..... so here'go, can't hurt, right?..........



************************************************** ****************

Who knows, ....maybe it will help point in a direction that, you know, even your son can check into some things while you're gone, etc.? Also, .... I know your ability to get to this is static, at best, and it's really frustrating to be on it for 3 days, then off for 3 weeks.... GOOD LORD, I'd go nuts! Admiring your perseverance! lol. I also know, via 'personal experience' with this stuff, ..... it has to be REALLY organized and a GREAT P.O.E. should be up, one that you can continuously update, rule out things, re-post/edited each time,... use "Quote" to edit therein, rule things out that are CONCLUSIVE! Etc., ya know? You can even save these documents as 'editable text' and begin to write in those images.... And, yet, still, I would start with a VERY clean, very detailed list on here, for us and more importantly, YOURSELF! Again, I know this only because I probably, with the best intentions, wasted around 30-100 hours(lost track, lol),....chasing my tail! lol. Sure, I write alot, whatever, .... maybe get a bit 'anal' in my threads, ...but IT HELPS, me, and others, I'm sure of that, now. (I just need to go back through and start a REALLY good, cleaned up 'link' thing, directing people to 'permalink' stuffs... or just start a new blog/thread and have it all organized, copy and pasted with all the 'conclusions/methods', etc., ya know? But I JUST DON'T HAVE TIME YET! lol.)

 

Jason...I admire your perseverance. I am no help here other then moral support, which isnt going to fix this, but I am so glad we have YT.

Chef.. Your help is out standing, hope I never get a problem like this, I would be completely lost with out a clue of what to do next. But it does help when some one gets you looking at a problem at a different way. I have been there and you get stuck in a circle checking the same things over and over.

Like I said this is so far over my head, I am useless here, but I know eventually you will get it, and that will be a cause for celebration. Just wishing you the best.

 

Keep up the good work man sorry you dont get to work on her like you want to but man when you do get her fired up and flawless you will forget bout all the trouble she gave you and be able to enjoy her just like chef. Ive been askn round bout what your going through if i come up something ill let cha know

 

hey mark, terry, baddest, thanks again for the support. Ok so after reading thru even more of the fsm I atleast have renewed hope in finding the end to this, I also feel realy stupid about a few things but I will get to that later, my new hope comes from learning there are still alot of things that I have not checked, mainly becouse I did not realize they were related, the next reason is becouse there are a few things I have found "and this is where I start fealing stupid" were not done right from the beginning. Im not convinced I have solved the issue by any streatch and the things I screwed up our just over looked have played only a small role if any in the problems that Im haveing but they are things that need fixed, hoses that should be there that arent, kinked water hoses, parts that I have no clue as to how I lost but did, those are the things things that make me feel stupid becouse I should have done a better job of keeping all of this organized.
mark I really want to start a POE list like you have said but I cant seem to get my mind to keep from jumping around "dang ADD" lol. But seriously I am working on it.

 

Hello Jason..This can be frustrating and you may feel over your head. If you can come up with a plan, when this is over, you will have learned alot.

Electrical is my weak area and with the rear window issues I had, and the ENG fuse, I feel that for a shade tree mechanic on here I am in the upper part of in these 2 areas on these trucks. On the ENG fuse alone, I dont see why there are any other fuses, everything runs off of that fuse.lol

Anytime I see someone asking questions on rear window or ENG fuse, I feel really confident in answering and helping on these two areas.

You will be the guru on flooding issues.

 

Thanks Terry I Just wish I was better at documenting this stuff like you, chef and others. I think it would be of a lot more help to me as well as everyone else. I spent several hours today reading the fsm and learned quite a bit, not sure any of it will help but I'm alittle more educated any way. One thing frustrated me tho, I could not find any info on tracking down the rpm code. Anyway guess I'll keep digging.

 

RPM code... isn't that Dizzy related? Secondary Coil maybe?

Don't you start feeling that way, Jason, ...c'mon man, you're working like 21 days at a time, hit the rig for 2-3 days if you're lucky... then back to work! NO WONDER it's hard to stay/get organized! lol.

Just try to make a 'Master List', on here, and then just keep editing it, ...that's what helped me, TREMENDOUSLY! It also helped to get more people to chime in... I mean, otherwise, they have to read back to the beginning, then on, figure out what you've solved, then they see, "no start", then "it's starting but not all the time"... Just helps to have "Major" sections and then "Subsections" therein, ya know? You can even make it really long, doesn't matter, as long as it's organized and concise, ya?

I would gladly help ya out on that... if you want. I know you're busy... I'm busy too, but I'm able to get online whenever I want, for the most part(at least a few times a day). Let me know, k?

I copied the FSM pages to paint and then wrote my answers in there, ...that was really helpful as well. Keeps the "Google it" or "FSM man, it's free" comments from floating in and making blood shoot from your eyeballs, too! hahaha.

I wish I'd taken the time, already, to make up a 'MASTER CHECK LIST' w/ 'Blank Slots for Values, Readings, Symptoms, etc., as well as 'filled in' sections on the most likely culprits, 'less likely but plausible' culprits and then even the "SEEMINGLY IMPOSSIBLE BUT FREE TO CHECK" LIST! LOL. Maybe it's time to start putting one together in Word, ...then I can come back and edit, etc., ya know?

Glad the FSM is helping you dig a lil deeper... it's AMAZING how more in depth it is regarding diagnosis/troubleshooting, eh?

 

I haven't been able to keep up on your build thread, so maybe this post will be completely irrelevant at this point. If that's the case I apologise. I was doing some random 22re reading on a different 4x4 forum (gasp) and I came across this post:

"There's something important to remember about jumpering the connector to set base ignition timing. That being the computer will ignore you if there are error codes.

So if the ignition timing doesn't change when you jumper the connector, you've got a component problem to fix.

Conveniently, that connector is also a diagnostics connector. Jumper it with the engine not running, and you can read error codes, via the check engine light as I recall. You will probably find it telling you there is a problem with the TPS.

Another entertaining trait of the 22RE engine is the tendancy to have a surging idle if the cooling system is low. "

The statement about the computer ignoring you if you have error codes made me think of your situation. I'm wondering if because of another error code the computer was ignoring you while you were setting your base timing after the rebuild, which stopped you from setting the timing accurately, which is now causing you to throw out that rpm error code I remember you talking about. It's a long shot, but I'm wondering if your ecu was reset, and you jumped the diagnostic port and redid the timing quick, and then checked error codes again to see if they changed.

Once again, if I'm way off because I haven't been following along, I apologise. I just for some reason thought of your situation when I read about the ability of the ecu to ignore being jumpered if there are error codes.

Edit: It's on a probably unrelated topic but here's the LINK if you were curious about the quote I posted. I know you went over the symptoms earlier, but I can't seem to find them again. Can you post the infrequent "does not start" symptoms again? eg. starter turns like a top, but engine doesn't fire, etc. Best of luck, Jason.

 

Gonna be home for a couple days, got a lot to get done really hoping to gain some ground on the old girl. Really need to use my shop for other things for a few days.

 

Thanks for the info Dutch, when I finally woke up and realized "hey you gotta jump those connections" to set the timing, it work it my still not be dead on 5 initial but its darn close.
The rpm code has me a little confused becouse the GSM says that code is thrown when the computer does not detect a rpm signal with in 2 seconds of cranking, I know the signal starts at the dizzy then through the secondary coil but after that I'm not sure of what if any other components it passes through.
I also wonder chef commented that no fire will shut off fuel or vice versa, would a no fire just a the spark plugs be enough to set that problem in motion?

 

Hello Jason.. For the most part I am probably not going to be much help. I am lost and have tried searching for more info and just havent had any luck.

One thing I might suggest from a past experience was I helped tune up a 318 Dodge. We put new plugs, wires and everything else and when we got done it ran worse then when we started. After all was said and done, even with new plug wires, our coil wire was a factory defualt. Had a broken connection inside the wire. We probed it and with some needle like pins and actually found the break inside the new wire.

We were so sure having new parts, we didnt even think about the basics. It was one of the toughest I had seen. It worked just enough to run, my guess is the electric was jumping the break. I might suggest ohming out your plug wires as maybe it is possible to keep from sending the signal that the ECU is looking for.

Might try the test of connecting everything minus the Plenum and like Chef said you will need to hook up the ground wire that attaches to the bottom of the intake and see if this gives you any clues as to where the flooding is from. I have never done so have no idea what it all would be involved.

Other than that, I am completely stumped and can only imagine how you feel. Anything I can help you with, give me a call.

 

Jason,
I didn't read your entire post so i apologize in advance if this has been mentioned.

Recently i was getting the rpm/speed sensor signal. Turned out to be my VAFM. Mine had a dead spot on the sweep, and my wires were corroded at every splice. Si i took the AFM apart and re-bent the armature that sweeps, and replaced the wire from pin 3 on the AFM(Brown/Blue stripe) all the way to the fire wall. Pretty easy, but that wire is spliced to several different sensors, so just trace it completely.
I would try the AFM first, the re-wire is just a PITA.
This fixed my issues.

 

DUDE, ... you realize, Jason, ..... (of COURSE you do at this point! lol)>>>> THE AFM, IF FAULTY IN THAT ONE CIRCUIT, WILL NOT KICK ON THE FUEL PUMP! OK, ....so you've ruled that the AFM IS kicking on the Fuel Pump when you're having your "non-start" drama.... BUT, is there something within the rest that the AFM communicates with that could be causing it to STOP power to the injectors after it sees no spark? NO IDEA! lol. But it's worth a looksie, eh?

 

the speed sensor code will not cause the vehicle not to start..FYI.

 

Oh yeah, no doubt.... I've had the same code... And even though you're V6 and Jason and I are 22RE.... MUCH is the same. I still ran with an RPM code as well.

I'm talking about the multiple components related to/through the AFM possibly having an effect on 'shut down' of injectors. (Fuel cut), .... just as when you brake at over 1000RPM, the fuel cuts on and off, (if your idle is stuck above 1000, it will just keep bouncing, repetitively)

 

ok guys update but not much of one, I thought earlier I had this thing figured out so I went ahead and put it back together "mistake". I have been working on this thing since I got home and this is where Im at.
1. still will not start
2. does sputter for a few seconds on short cranks, meening only when you start cranking and then only somtimes.
3. I think the bad flooding problem is fixed.
4. I replaced the spark plugs, the kinked bypass hose conected the secondary air valve the one under the intake.
5. I have conduted the tests as prescribed in the FSM at least as much of it as I could make heads or tails of.
I am at a complete loss guys, I know a lot of you guys have been through much worse than what Im going through so Im sorry for whining, but I just do not have the time to continue to devote to this thing with out gaining somthing, not selling it or anything but I am going to A. take a break from it for a bit and B. Im going to try and find somone that is better at this kind of thing than I am. I guess you could say Im admitting defeat.
that said I cant afford a shop bill rite now so Im not sure when I'll be able to get it in somwhere but we shall see.
If you guys feel like throughing out ideas feel free I may calm down some and take another look at it, but these are my plans for now.