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Starter sometimes clicks unless truck is rocked in gear
88 RWD 22R MT
Scratching my head on this one. When I go to start the truck, it always turns over the first time. I have never had a problem on the first crank of the day. If it stalls or I key off, there's about a 50% chance it will just "clunk" on restart. However, if I put it in gear and rock it back and forth, it will almost always crank normally.
Factory ND starter as far as I can tell.
I replaced the starter contacts/plunger about 2 months ago. Click still happens at the same frequency.
22R so no COR issues.
The truck has no clutch safety and no CSC switch.
The click is nice and loud so I'm confident the starter plunger is moving.
I don't think my truck is subject to the wiring error where all the current goes through the ignition switch. However, the SR5 voltage meter does drop down below the middle line. (indication of high current draw) Haven't taken any actual voltage readings. When it does turn over, it cranks nice and strong for 5+ seconds, so battery is alright.
Any ideas? When I did the contacts the teeth looked fine on the pinion and flywheel (or at least the part of it I could see) My only guess is that a pinion tooth is hitting a flywheel tooth perfectly preventing the plunger from engaging all the way. I've never heard of that happening, but being able to rock it in gear and have the starter work normally points to that.
Nope; Start power comes through the key switch. Replace the ignition switch, or put a relay in the circuit to carry current to the starter. Common problem as these truck get old.
Mine has it, I just put in a "Y" junction to a start PB next to the shift. If starts with the key great, if not the button always works.
Nope; Start power comes through the key switch. Replace the ignition switch, or put a relay in the circuit to carry current to the starter. Common problem as these truck get old.
Mine has it, I just put in a "Y" junction to a start PB next to the shift. If starts with the key great, if not the button always works.
Good info, but why does rocking the car get it to start?
Nope; Start power comes through the key switch. Replace the ignition switch, or put a relay in the circuit to carry current to the starter. Common problem as these truck get old.
Mine has it, I just put in a "Y" junction to a start PB next to the shift. If starts with the key great, if not the button always works.
So, what does the starter relay on the passenger fender do? There's definitely a current draw that reaches the cluster, but I don't know how normal that is.
I've read over that thread religiously, I think I will give that a shot if I think I can open the relay without breaking it.
Originally Posted by grumpin
Good info, but why does rocking the car get it to start?
I just tried it out some more (cranking and keying off right away) It cranked up about 5 times in a row, then clunked. Tried probabaly 20 quick turns and it clunked every time. Put it in reverse, got it rolling down the driveway, popped the clutch and the motor barely moved. Turned the key and it cranked right up.
I really think there's a mechanical issue somewhere, unless the time it takes me to roll it and pop the clutch gives something a chance to cool off.
There simply is not enough current to drive the solenoid into the flywheel / flexplate, close the circuit and spin the engine. The key switch starts to go bad and limits current so "nothing happens". Now there is a clicking sound of a relay, but its not the starter relay. Its another name for it, deals with the FI system. Ford's have a starter relay, these Toy's don't.
Threw me for a loop till I figured it out.
I bet if you take a hot wire to the starter from the battery, 12ga / 14ga and touch the terminal on the starter it rolls everytime. nice hot B+ on the solenoid terminal.
Now there is a really off chance you have the starter installed cockeyed. I have had a few issues in cold weather getting both bolts in and really tight with the starter square to the bell housing. One time I had to use a paperback book to hold it in place to work. There is a nose button that must go into its socket adding rigidity to the starter.
There simply is not enough current to drive the solenoid into the flywheel / flexplate, close the circuit and spin the engine. The key switch starts to go bad and limits current so "nothing happens". Now there is a clicking sound of a relay, but its not the starter relay. Its another name for it, deals with the FI system. Ford's have a starter relay, these Toy's don't.
Threw me for a loop till I figured it out.
I bet if you take a hot wire to the starter from the battery, 12ga / 14ga and touch the terminal on the starter it rolls everytime. nice hot B+ on the solenoid terminal.
Now there is a really off chance you have the starter installed cockeyed. I have had a few issues in cold weather getting both bolts in and really tight with the starter square to the bell housing. One time I had to use a paperback book to hold it in place to work. There is a nose button that must go into its socket adding rigidity to the starter.
Right, just weird when you bump it and it works because you aren't moving the starter. When I was thinking "flat spot", I've had to hit starters to get them to go. Misalignment (as skypilot said) or lack of shims, if these use shims, can cause problems. Also the clutch switch could be going bad or need adjustment. But, I would think you would here the click but not a clunk.
It's been way too cold to go out and mess with it, but there have been some good points so far. Is there a proper shimming procedure? It looked like it was guided in by the bolt holes pretty well.
Never heard of starter shims for Toyotas, thought that was only a GM thing. I'd look for a cable issue, that looses contact, then when bumping gets contact again. Perhaps do a voltage drop test next time it won't start.
I hope you got it figured out. if not , My thoughts below...
Originally Posted by mct75
88 RWD 22R MT
The click is nice and loud so I'm confident the starter plunger is moving.
The solenoid plunger has to overcome some amount of mechanical binding/friction AND return spring tension
Even it click sounds/feels good, If there is too much power loss along improperly-wired circuit, it may not have enough force to really lose the contacts.
I don't think my truck is subject to the wiring error where all the current goes through the ignition switch.
IF your wiring is stock 22R OR 1985 22R-E, it does not have a relay.
IF your wiring is stock 22R-E 1986-1988, it should have a starter really that IS wired wrong.
Either of the above means that the current (approx 12 Amps) needed to actuate solenoid plunger runs from battery to fuse block, to cabin, to ignition switch (not ideally meant for carrying 21 Amps, and may have corroded/pitted contacts now), back to engine compartment, to starter relay contacts, then eventually to the starter solenoid coil. That's about 15 feet of wire.
Properly wiring the starter relay would make power for solenoid run only from battery, to starter relay, to starter solenoid. That's 4 feet of wire at the most, AND you may choose to use bigger than stock gauge. I used 12 AWG.
Originally Posted by skypilot
Nope; Start power comes through the key switch. Replace the ignition switch, or put a relay in the circuit to carry current to the starter. Common problem as these truck get old.
Probably no need to replace anything. Just wire starter relay properly IF already installed, OR IF relay not present add relay like below:
...Never heard of starter shims for Toyotas, thought that was only a GM thing.
Absolutely sounds like a GM thing. Allows a remedy for things not done right the first time.
I'd look for a cable issue, that looses contact, then when bumping gets contact again. Perhaps do a voltage drop test next time it won't start.
Improperly-wired starter relay causes a lot of voltage drop. No need to ebven measure it is proven and documented. Look at FSM schematic.
AND troubleshooting guide ^^^ above does not mention it as possible cause because guide was probably written by same engineer who wired the starter relay incorrectly - LOL!
Hi RAD4Runner! I've read your wiring blunder thread religiously, but thought it didn't apply to my carb'ed truck.
IF your wiring is stock 22R OR 1985 22R-E, it does not have a relay.
IF your wiring is stock 22R-E 1986-1988, it should have a starter really that IS wired wrong.
Something is weird, then. I know the truck is an 88 with a 22R motor. But I'm pretty sure it has a starter relay as well. I took a picture:
If that's true, my truck is a unicorn or more likely had an engine swap. I guess if the truck has a relay, it has the wiring problem. That at least gives me something to work on.
I did the test prescribed in RAD4Runner's thread, and indeed my starter relay's terminal supply is switched by the ignition! I got into the fuse box before it started raining again. I'm going to try to tap into "terminal 3" like in the thread. Weather is bad for a few days so likely no working on it for a while. Here's a pic of the bottom of the fuse box if anyone cares.
Cool! You're narrowing it down. I hear you. I used to have a warm dry place to work on my vehicles, now it's outside. Sometimes you can't work on them.
I'm really hoping this fixes it, and the "rocking it in gear" part was just giving the key terminals time to cool off. I don't feel like pulling the starter again! Laying on the concrete when it's 30 degrees outside takes a lot out of you.
I chose to tap into the "terminal 3" in the fuse box. This is the blade farthest from the engine on the green 40A FL in the box. To remove it, a small flathead screwdriver is used to pry back the plastic tab from the top side. Be careful not to break it. Then I removed about 1 cm of insulation from around the wire, and wrapped my 12GA around it, and soldered. I was careful to snake the wire along with all the other ones and zip tie it in to be secure.
Overall I'm not happy with the way the soldering turned out (there was not a lot of room in there), but it seems to work much better. I cranked the truck up about 50 times in a row with no hesitation.
Major thanks to everyone in this thread. Especially RAD4runner, even though his post made it sound like the 22r's didn't have this issue!
02-19-2015, 05:37 AM
