New rebuilt no start throwing codes 7 and 11
08-25-2018, 11:10 AM
#61
Registered User
Hard to start can be another fuel pressure regulator issue... it allows fuel to drain back into the tank...
i just did the jumper wire and was done with that issue after trying 2 after market fpr's...argh
i just did the jumper wire and was done with that issue after trying 2 after market fpr's...argh
08-25-2018, 11:44 AM
#65
Registered User
08-25-2018, 12:57 PM
#66
Registered User
Thread Starter
Alright I can see how that could be an issue since the fuel rail was disconnected sitting in a box of parts with the regulator attached to it for about 3 months before I got the intake back on. Too bad it also seems I’m at the point of needing SST’s to test further or I need to drop 100$ for a new regulator that may or may not be the issue. Got any poor man’s tests for the regulator?
This is what’s frustrating about this issue... I charged the battery by running the truck for a while confirmed 12.6v at battery terminals ... jumpered the FP to get it to start then stopped the engine when it was at operating temp, pulled the jumper off, and look it fires up immediately. Why? Would the engine temp effect the regulator? Does it get bypassed at some point? Maybe a better question is why does it start fine while warm?
This is what’s frustrating about this issue... I charged the battery by running the truck for a while confirmed 12.6v at battery terminals ... jumpered the FP to get it to start then stopped the engine when it was at operating temp, pulled the jumper off, and look it fires up immediately. Why? Would the engine temp effect the regulator? Does it get bypassed at some point? Maybe a better question is why does it start fine while warm?
Last edited by outdoorjunky; 08-25-2018 at 01:18 PM.
08-25-2018, 01:22 PM
#67
Registered User
No.. once you've started the fuel pressure is trapped for a while... after sitting over night or however long it takes... the pressure leaks off, thus no start till she pressures up again... regardless if you jumpered or not... it's not the fuel pump, its the regulator.
08-25-2018, 01:32 PM
#68
Registered User
Jumper the FP, put a pair of needle nose vice grips on the fuel line between the fuel rail and see if it starts... NOT gonna happen, why? No fuel, regardless if the pump is working... it still has to get the fuel to the rail...
With the truck running you can feel , the by passed fuel in the (tank return line)... IF the pressure regulator isn't working, but even if it's only kinda working it may not be delivering enough fuel to run right... fuel pressures gauge at the rail willl tell you if it's working too.
With the truck running you can feel , the by passed fuel in the (tank return line)... IF the pressure regulator isn't working, but even if it's only kinda working it may not be delivering enough fuel to run right... fuel pressures gauge at the rail willl tell you if it's working too.
08-25-2018, 01:36 PM
#69
Registered User
Thread Starter
No.. once you've started the fuel pressure is trapped for a while... after sitting over night or however long it takes... the pressure leaks off, thus no start till she pressures up again... regardless if you jumpered or not... it's not the fuel pump, its the regulator.
and actually I’m not even bummed that I went through all these other troubleshoot steps because I learned a lot, the kind of things that can get me out of a pinch ... real diagnostics rather than relying on OBD2 to tell me what to do like the newer cars do.so, I’m looking online and even a Napa regulator is 101$ would pulling one from a junkyard be an excersise in futility?
Thanks for your input by the way!
08-25-2018, 01:40 PM
#70
Registered User
A lot of what I've read in your thread would make the truck run really bad, but NOT keep it from running i.e. timing off, tps off, afm off, firing order off...NOT running is a different animal.
Your running, so it's a process, is it fuel related, or electrical? Sounds like fuel to me... but, I'm not there and I've been wrong before.
i know it can be super frustrating. We'll keep given ya inspiration. 🤔
Your running, so it's a process, is it fuel related, or electrical? Sounds like fuel to me... but, I'm not there and I've been wrong before.
i know it can be super frustrating. We'll keep given ya inspiration. 🤔
08-25-2018, 01:52 PM
#72
Registered User
Fuel pressure
Fuel pressure plays a big role in the operation of a fuel injection system. Because the injector is essentially a gate valve for fuel delivery, increasing fuel pressure can allow you to cram more fuel into the intake tract for a given injector pulse width. Typical fuel pressure for a stock 22RTE engine is 43 psi. The maximum fuel pressure that the stock injectors can handle is about 70 psi -- above that and the injector begins to fight the fuel pressure to get its valve open, and fuel deliver actually decreases in volume.
Fuel pressure is determined by both the fuel pump and the fuel pressure regulator. The stock fuel pressure regulator has a hose that connects it to intake manifold vacuum/pressure, so that as manifold pressure rises, fuel pressure also rises, typically by a 1:1 ratio. The pump determines the overall volume of fuel that the system is capable of delivering to the injectors. The size of the fuel lines can also be a limiting factor if fuel demand is significantly greater than stock."
Fuel pressure plays a big role in the operation of a fuel injection system. Because the injector is essentially a gate valve for fuel delivery, increasing fuel pressure can allow you to cram more fuel into the intake tract for a given injector pulse width. Typical fuel pressure for a stock 22RTE engine is 43 psi. The maximum fuel pressure that the stock injectors can handle is about 70 psi -- above that and the injector begins to fight the fuel pressure to get its valve open, and fuel deliver actually decreases in volume.
Fuel pressure is determined by both the fuel pump and the fuel pressure regulator. The stock fuel pressure regulator has a hose that connects it to intake manifold vacuum/pressure, so that as manifold pressure rises, fuel pressure also rises, typically by a 1:1 ratio. The pump determines the overall volume of fuel that the system is capable of delivering to the injectors. The size of the fuel lines can also be a limiting factor if fuel demand is significantly greater than stock."
08-25-2018, 02:10 PM
#74
Registered User
Thread Starter
Unfortunately regarding the regulator it looks like it was only used on the 22re pickups, 4runners, and the 84-85 celicas that used the 22re. that is unfortunate because here in CA 22re engines are soooo hard to find at the pick n pull. there are teams of professional parts pullers who show up and camp out every day and get all the good stuff immediately as soon as the place opens. I've gotten alerts from the row 52 app on 86 pickups or 4runners early in the morning gone down to pick n pull arriving about an hour to an hour and a half after they open and the truck that was just put on the lot already has no engine, wiring harness, transmission, seats, etc ... it is crazy competitive. I might try to pull a used TPS from a 3RZE 4runner because they seem to get less attention than the 22re trucks and runners but it sure would have been nice if Toyotas use of that regulator was wide spread so I could easily find one.
I know a used TPS isn't ideal but for the moment money is tight. I'm an uber driver but with this truck down I've had to share my work car with my fiancé and I'm also a full time student so finding time for school and working is clashing with her working schedule and hindering my finances greatly. If I can get this thing running right we can trade vehicles as needed and then I'll come back through and replace with new TPS when the financial situation improves. At least now I know how to test a TPS and I'll just bring my volt meter and test it on the spot before bringing it home. as far as the regulator hopefully I'll have some luck tomorrow. I guess I'm already lucky that my fiancé considers a trip to the pick n pull a date LOL.
and FYI If I get a few regulators that work I'd be totally willing to send you one.
Cheers!
Last edited by outdoorjunky; 08-25-2018 at 02:15 PM.
08-25-2018, 05:37 PM
#75
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With all due respect to 87-4runner
DO NOT REPLACE THE FPR until you verify that it is not working. How? By checking the fuel pressure against the FSM. Here's the manual:
http://web.archive.org/web/201003261...87fuelpump.pdf
Here's the tool you need:
(this one has the fitting you need, but with the right fitting you can use any pressure gauge).
Yes, the fuel pressure stays up when you turn it off, but it doesn't take "overnight" for it to drain off. There's even a spec; it is supposed to stay above 21psi for 5 minutes (mine barely makes that, and starts right up). But, if your fuel pump is really weak, it could take a while for it to recover from "overnight" (or 10 minutes), making it "hard to start." But trivial to diagnose; get a fuel pressure gauge.
Frankly, I don't think you have a fuel pressure issue. It's probably something as basic as ignition timing. A warm engine can limp along with the timing WAY off, but it is hard to start. My advice: start with the basics.
This forum is full of folks who try to fix their trucks just by replacing parts, almost on a whim, never with an actual diagnosis. Occasionally, someone with a loose wire somewhere will be replacing parts at random, and at some point bumps into that wire while replacing the bulb in the glove box. Did the glove box bulb "fix" her no-start condition? Of course not, but now there's no telling her otherwise.
DO NOT REPLACE THE FPR until you verify that it is not working. How? By checking the fuel pressure against the FSM. Here's the manual:
http://web.archive.org/web/201003261...87fuelpump.pdf
Here's the tool you need:
(this one has the fitting you need, but with the right fitting you can use any pressure gauge).
Yes, the fuel pressure stays up when you turn it off, but it doesn't take "overnight" for it to drain off. There's even a spec; it is supposed to stay above 21psi for 5 minutes (mine barely makes that, and starts right up). But, if your fuel pump is really weak, it could take a while for it to recover from "overnight" (or 10 minutes), making it "hard to start." But trivial to diagnose; get a fuel pressure gauge.
Frankly, I don't think you have a fuel pressure issue. It's probably something as basic as ignition timing. A warm engine can limp along with the timing WAY off, but it is hard to start. My advice: start with the basics.
This forum is full of folks who try to fix their trucks just by replacing parts, almost on a whim, never with an actual diagnosis. Occasionally, someone with a loose wire somewhere will be replacing parts at random, and at some point bumps into that wire while replacing the bulb in the glove box. Did the glove box bulb "fix" her no-start condition? Of course not, but now there's no telling her otherwise.
08-25-2018, 05:50 PM
#76
Registered User
Thread Starter
With all due respect to 87-4runner
DO NOT REPLACE THE FPR until you verify that it is not working. How? By checking the fuel pressure against the FSM. Here's the manual:
http://web.archive.org/web/201003261...87fuelpump.pdf
Here's the tool you need:
https://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7838...UKC/ref=sr_1_7
(this one has the fitting you need, but with the right fitting you can use any pressure gauge).
Yes, the fuel pressure stays up when you turn it off, but it doesn't take "overnight" for it to drain off. There's even a spec; it is supposed to stay above 21psi for 5 minutes (mine barely makes that, and starts right up). But, if your fuel pump is really weak, it could take a while for it to recover from "overnight" (or 10 minutes), making it "hard to start." But trivial to diagnose; get a fuel pressure gauge.
Frankly, I don't think you have a fuel pressure issue. It's probably something as basic as ignition timing. A warm engine can limp along with the timing WAY off, but it is hard to start. My advice: start with the basics.
This forum is full of folks who try to fix their trucks just by replacing parts, almost on a whim, never with an actual diagnosis. Occasionally, someone with a loose wire somewhere will be replacing parts at random, and at some point bumps into that wire while replacing the bulb in the glove box. Did the glove box bulb "fix" her no-start condition? Of course not, but now there's no telling her otherwise.
DO NOT REPLACE THE FPR until you verify that it is not working. How? By checking the fuel pressure against the FSM. Here's the manual:
http://web.archive.org/web/201003261...87fuelpump.pdf
Here's the tool you need:
https://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7838...UKC/ref=sr_1_7
(this one has the fitting you need, but with the right fitting you can use any pressure gauge).
Yes, the fuel pressure stays up when you turn it off, but it doesn't take "overnight" for it to drain off. There's even a spec; it is supposed to stay above 21psi for 5 minutes (mine barely makes that, and starts right up). But, if your fuel pump is really weak, it could take a while for it to recover from "overnight" (or 10 minutes), making it "hard to start." But trivial to diagnose; get a fuel pressure gauge.
Frankly, I don't think you have a fuel pressure issue. It's probably something as basic as ignition timing. A warm engine can limp along with the timing WAY off, but it is hard to start. My advice: start with the basics.
This forum is full of folks who try to fix their trucks just by replacing parts, almost on a whim, never with an actual diagnosis. Occasionally, someone with a loose wire somewhere will be replacing parts at random, and at some point bumps into that wire while replacing the bulb in the glove box. Did the glove box bulb "fix" her no-start condition? Of course not, but now there's no telling her otherwise.
Last edited by outdoorjunky; 08-25-2018 at 05:51 PM.
08-25-2018, 10:51 PM
#77
Unplug tps, jumper the IDL circuit set the base timing
Measure the fuel pressure before you replace anything.
Warm up protocol sends extra fuel until engine temp is X..
All short hand I don't have time to read and explain, been laying floor since noon, it's 1am
Goodnight
Measure the fuel pressure before you replace anything.
Warm up protocol sends extra fuel until engine temp is X..
All short hand I don't have time to read and explain, been laying floor since noon, it's 1am
Goodnight
08-26-2018, 06:24 AM
#78
Inoperable vafm fuel pump switch, never going to start without help. You skipped over this one but the STA signal is necessary also as it's the activation portion of the COR (fuel pump relay!)
Tps not sending IDL, ECU advances timing like you are accelerating combined with not even in the ball park ignition timing. Can cause no start, or worse damage.
Ignition order, just how many sparkplugs does it need to start (remember it was a complete no start at this point not hard start)
Understand the COR is the fuel pump relay and is responsible for powering on the fuel pump. A high resistance contact in the COR will limit current/voltage availabile to the pump.
There is actually a test for this. It starts with measuring the noload contact resistance, this tells you if it is way out of spec.There is also a loaded circuit voltage drop not covered in the book, but important and usually easy. You can measure across a resistive component (meter probes on input and output) while it is flowing current, the ideal result would be near zero.
08-26-2018, 06:52 AM
#79
Registered User
Thread Starter
So just very wrong I have to disagree.
Inoperable vafm fuel pump switch, never going to start without help. You skipped over this one but the STA signal is necessary also as it's the activation portion of the COR (fuel pump relay!)
Tps not sending IDL, ECU advances timing like you are accelerating combined with not even in the ball park ignition timing. Can cause no start, or worse damage.
Ignition order, just how many sparkplugs does it need to start (remember it was a complete no start at this point not hard start)
Yes you maybe mistaken, or maybe not.
Understand the COR is the fuel pump relay and is responsible for powering on the fuel pump. A high resistance contact in the COR will limit current/voltage availabile to the pump.
There is actually a test for this. It starts with measuring the noload contact resistance, this tells you if it is way out of spec.There is also a loaded circuit voltage drop not covered in the book, but important and usually easy. You can measure across a resistive component (meter probes on input and output) while it is flowing current, the ideal result would be near zero.
Inoperable vafm fuel pump switch, never going to start without help. You skipped over this one but the STA signal is necessary also as it's the activation portion of the COR (fuel pump relay!)
Tps not sending IDL, ECU advances timing like you are accelerating combined with not even in the ball park ignition timing. Can cause no start, or worse damage.
Ignition order, just how many sparkplugs does it need to start (remember it was a complete no start at this point not hard start)
Yes you maybe mistaken, or maybe not.
Understand the COR is the fuel pump relay and is responsible for powering on the fuel pump. A high resistance contact in the COR will limit current/voltage availabile to the pump.
There is actually a test for this. It starts with measuring the noload contact resistance, this tells you if it is way out of spec.There is also a loaded circuit voltage drop not covered in the book, but important and usually easy. You can measure across a resistive component (meter probes on input and output) while it is flowing current, the ideal result would be near zero.
as far as replacing anything else is concerned I’m not going to buy any more parts at the moment until I get the fuel pressure tester which I will order sometime today and should be here by Tuesday.
08-26-2018, 09:58 AM
#80
huh I confirmed voltage at the Fp pin on the COR and all pins on the COR tested within spec although on the higher side of spec. Also the VAFM pins all tested okay as well and when the AFM door is manipulated the COR triggers and the fuel pump comes on. Are you suggesting the VAFM is bad? I may be the one that is bad at testing it. No one really told me if my second round of testing was the correct method. Fp to ground then move AFM door but What am I looking for on this circuit? 12.6 volts when the AFM is manipulated? If I recal my readings were in the MV range not V. Also if the pins on the AFM all tested good via FSM procedure why would the switch be bad? Actually since my battery wasn’t at 12.6v at the time of testing I really should re-run the test on the VAFM and test the COR Fp pin while pulling load (cranking the starter). I got good voltage on the COR while the alternator was charging the system but only pulled 11.79v during the cranking part of the test.
as far as replacing anything else is concerned I’m not going to buy any more parts at the moment until I get the fuel pressure tester which I will order sometime today and should be here by Tuesday.
...
Check your local parts store, Napa and such, have tool "loan" policies. You can probably get a fuel pressure gauge. They will require a deposit (purchase price), they then refund this if the tool is returned in good shape.
Regarding battery, you showed us a low battery voltage. Easy enough to put a pair of jumper-cables to the other vehicle, that would eliminate a weak battery from the equation..
If you want to you could measure the voltage at the battery, and compare the three scenarios. (Key off, key on, and key in start position.. Most, less, least)
If you have less than 10 volts to the ECU at cranking the ECU turns off, no ECU no injection pulse. The only fuel then is what comes out of the coldstart injector, iirc it doesn't rely on the ecu being powered on.
If your battery voltage drops much below 10 you'll get lots of bizarre behaviors and might hear the relays rapidly cycling..
