MAF Conversion Mod 3.0 2nd gen
10-25-2006, 05:54 PM
#141
Supra, Not what I was looking for at the moment but still usfull and will help in some wiring harness rework. Thumbs up.
That should be put on a perminent sticky for this section.
Bumpin & anyone else about to look into what this thred is all about, Theres a book Im about to get and delv into called "Motor books workshop, How to tune and mod engine management systems" From what Ive gatherd this is the Best EFI book out for those who want to learn.
Also another called "Corky Bells forced induction" goes hand in hand with the former, Im not going there yet.
That should be put on a perminent sticky for this section.
Bumpin & anyone else about to look into what this thred is all about, Theres a book Im about to get and delv into called "Motor books workshop, How to tune and mod engine management systems" From what Ive gatherd this is the Best EFI book out for those who want to learn.
Also another called "Corky Bells forced induction" goes hand in hand with the former, Im not going there yet.
01-08-2007, 04:58 PM
#142
Super ultra kick in the bump to bring a thred back to life.
Some new stuff while browsing and thought the rest of you 3vz owners might like to see what Ive come across with new possabilities, 22RE owners might like them too.
http://www.map-ecu.com/map2.html
http://www.venom-performance.com/nf/.../v400.htm#v400
the later im not so impressed by yet.
Somewhere in a book Im reading theres a mention of a company that makes adapters to use Karman Vortex AFM in place of VAFM, Im trying to retrace that one.
In my searches ive come across 2 other notes about changing AFM between models, One of them is for 22re owners using the 43110 AFM from a 82 2.8 5M Supra with only minor adjustment, Anyone else hear this?
I my have a 43150 off a 83-85 2.8 5M Supra, I tossed it on and leaned it 3 pts because it was really rich but the responds was greatly surprising, But I have other issues that need to be ironed out first before fine tuning.
Bumpin, Supra-, What you think?
Some new stuff while browsing and thought the rest of you 3vz owners might like to see what Ive come across with new possabilities, 22RE owners might like them too.
http://www.map-ecu.com/map2.html
http://www.venom-performance.com/nf/.../v400.htm#v400
the later im not so impressed by yet.
Somewhere in a book Im reading theres a mention of a company that makes adapters to use Karman Vortex AFM in place of VAFM, Im trying to retrace that one.
In my searches ive come across 2 other notes about changing AFM between models, One of them is for 22re owners using the 43110 AFM from a 82 2.8 5M Supra with only minor adjustment, Anyone else hear this?
I my have a 43150 off a 83-85 2.8 5M Supra, I tossed it on and leaned it 3 pts because it was really rich but the responds was greatly surprising, But I have other issues that need to be ironed out first before fine tuning.
Bumpin, Supra-, What you think?
01-08-2007, 07:31 PM
#143
Registered User
The performance potential in a stock 3vze isn't in the vafm. Its in the valves, porting, eshaust and maybe the cams. After that I would look at the plenum and the throttle body itself ($). After you address all those things I'll bet you see favorable results in opening up the initial portion of the intake. In reality a 3vzfe topend might be less $ in the long run for the same end result. Dan just has to work the bugs out and post up a how-to before anyone is gonna go for that.
01-09-2007, 04:38 PM
#144
Im going by the word Ive heard here that certain mods make a difference and no other mods down the line.
Wealse (Name spelled wrong but Im sure you know who it is) Has made a set of cams that have made a major improvement and thats without intake extrusion and at most just a cone filter inplace of the stock airfilter so that in itself shows theres much more potental in the engine.
After reading far into my new book on EFI (No Im not an expert now) Im finding out that its harder to get air into an EFI engine then fuel, So starting at the biggest restriction on the 3vz is the AFM, Ive made an estimates on CFM and toyota used the smallest cheapest AFM they had to be the first v6 in there trucks and SUV.
The only other engine they have that uses a AFM with this low CFM is there 22re but Toyota has made many 2.XL engines that use larger CFM AFM, Why?, Because it does make a difference.
The 22re and the 3vz both use an VAFM that has 200CFM at its possible best, With VE calculations for a 2.XL displacement, The 22re being NA that is safficiant with head room, But the 3vz being a 3.0 200CFM is 100% VE leaving no chance for improvment if you could.
The 2.8 Supra's and most other 2.XL engines that toyota made use a 300 CFM VAFM (Not counting the 350+ CFM Karman vortex AFM that some Turbo modles use) And get more power and torque per cc then the 3vz.
THe 3vz manifold runners are the same size as the VAFM, There for not enough CFM for overlapping inductions, The VE that the manifold has already makes good torque at low end because your not over drawing the VAFM yet and making good resonance, Thats why those cams work so well, But I bet the top end around 4000+ flattens off the same as stock because your trying to feed the demand through a swizzlestraw of an AFM.
Look at these figures, Toyota ether made the engine so uneficiant or through on the cheapest FMS they had on hand
CFM=CIDxRPMxVE/3456 (VE should be between 70-90% on NA engines)
180x5000x.77 (77% efficiency) / 3456 = 200 CFM
And I used 5k rpm because thats when the real falloff starts when mfg are suppose to use 5250rpm as a start point for calculating VE, Well if I did that Then we would get.
180x5250x.73 (73% efficiency) / 3456 = 200 CFM
Wow, 73% VE, Not a selling point there from toyota.
180x5250x.8 / 3456 = 218 cfm, Hmm, thats more then the VAFM that the 3vz uses.
Seeing 1.8L NA engines putting out 200hp makes me wonder why trying to get 160+ out of 3vz NA seems to be a problem.
I said fuel is not a problem if you just doing NA upgrades, The easyest way is to put on a Varible FPR, 1LBS can make a big difference.
Also for those that think the heads on the 3vz are to weak, I disbelive that, Maybe sensative to heat warpage, The surveys here on YT show that.
Im betting rod damage would accure before head damage using a turbo, Otherwise the heads should launch out the hood from hydrolock, 5lb boost would be nothing compared.
Wealse (Name spelled wrong but Im sure you know who it is) Has made a set of cams that have made a major improvement and thats without intake extrusion and at most just a cone filter inplace of the stock airfilter so that in itself shows theres much more potental in the engine.
After reading far into my new book on EFI (No Im not an expert now) Im finding out that its harder to get air into an EFI engine then fuel, So starting at the biggest restriction on the 3vz is the AFM, Ive made an estimates on CFM and toyota used the smallest cheapest AFM they had to be the first v6 in there trucks and SUV.
The only other engine they have that uses a AFM with this low CFM is there 22re but Toyota has made many 2.XL engines that use larger CFM AFM, Why?, Because it does make a difference.
The 22re and the 3vz both use an VAFM that has 200CFM at its possible best, With VE calculations for a 2.XL displacement, The 22re being NA that is safficiant with head room, But the 3vz being a 3.0 200CFM is 100% VE leaving no chance for improvment if you could.
The 2.8 Supra's and most other 2.XL engines that toyota made use a 300 CFM VAFM (Not counting the 350+ CFM Karman vortex AFM that some Turbo modles use) And get more power and torque per cc then the 3vz.
THe 3vz manifold runners are the same size as the VAFM, There for not enough CFM for overlapping inductions, The VE that the manifold has already makes good torque at low end because your not over drawing the VAFM yet and making good resonance, Thats why those cams work so well, But I bet the top end around 4000+ flattens off the same as stock because your trying to feed the demand through a swizzlestraw of an AFM.
Look at these figures, Toyota ether made the engine so uneficiant or through on the cheapest FMS they had on hand
CFM=CIDxRPMxVE/3456 (VE should be between 70-90% on NA engines)
180x5000x.77 (77% efficiency) / 3456 = 200 CFM
And I used 5k rpm because thats when the real falloff starts when mfg are suppose to use 5250rpm as a start point for calculating VE, Well if I did that Then we would get.
180x5250x.73 (73% efficiency) / 3456 = 200 CFM
Wow, 73% VE, Not a selling point there from toyota.
180x5250x.8 / 3456 = 218 cfm, Hmm, thats more then the VAFM that the 3vz uses.
Seeing 1.8L NA engines putting out 200hp makes me wonder why trying to get 160+ out of 3vz NA seems to be a problem.
I said fuel is not a problem if you just doing NA upgrades, The easyest way is to put on a Varible FPR, 1LBS can make a big difference.
Also for those that think the heads on the 3vz are to weak, I disbelive that, Maybe sensative to heat warpage, The surveys here on YT show that.
Im betting rod damage would accure before head damage using a turbo, Otherwise the heads should launch out the hood from hydrolock, 5lb boost would be nothing compared.
01-09-2007, 06:07 PM
#145
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The point Supra was trying to make that head porting and camshafts is the way to go horsepower/dollar. The VAFM on the 3VZE is indeed restrictive, several users including myself have experimented with 5MGE VAFMs with mixed results. I had coupled the 5MGE AFM with a split second ARC2 fuel controller in an attempt to tune the signal close to that of the 3VZE, yet it was not close enough. Problems included being either too lean on the top end or being too rich at the top end. The truck being a daily driver coupled with the horrible gas mileage of the 3VZE I've opted to stick with the factory unit. On the lines of power the difference is night and day, which has led me to invest in a MAP conversion project. I've acquired several piggyback units to adapt a MAP sensor to the 3VZE, but unfortunately the product has been delayed several months waiting for a firmware upgrade on the SMT7.
The field testing of the 5MGE VAFM on the twisty mountain roads was so promising that both an Acura RSX and a Ferrari 360 were obliged to pull over to let me pass. These two weren't casually driving, the RSX was pushing as hard as the car could go (tires squealing around most corners), and the Ferrari was doing 80+ mph when I caught up to it and gradually raised his pace but ducked out after he felt uncomfortable. (It should be obvious to all that if the Ferrari had a competent driver there would be no competition between these two vehicles). In short, there is definately some performance to be had with an unrestrictive air intake coupled with fuel tuning and other supporting modifications. When it comes down to what is most effective, head porting and cams are the way to go.
Note: My vehicle does not have cams or head porting.
The field testing of the 5MGE VAFM on the twisty mountain roads was so promising that both an Acura RSX and a Ferrari 360 were obliged to pull over to let me pass. These two weren't casually driving, the RSX was pushing as hard as the car could go (tires squealing around most corners), and the Ferrari was doing 80+ mph when I caught up to it and gradually raised his pace but ducked out after he felt uncomfortable. (It should be obvious to all that if the Ferrari had a competent driver there would be no competition between these two vehicles). In short, there is definately some performance to be had with an unrestrictive air intake coupled with fuel tuning and other supporting modifications. When it comes down to what is most effective, head porting and cams are the way to go.
Note: My vehicle does not have cams or head porting.
Last edited by Crymson; 01-09-2007 at 10:16 PM.
01-24-2007, 08:26 PM
#146
Bumpin and Corey, Theres a thred on Pirate from along time back that you 2 responded on, The thred stopped and there were no answers.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39571
Did ether of you find out if he used a piggyback of some sort, Besides the MSD was he pushing up to 15lbs on stock injectors and ECU?
From the grave this post walks again.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39571
Did ether of you find out if he used a piggyback of some sort, Besides the MSD was he pushing up to 15lbs on stock injectors and ECU?
From the grave this post walks again.
01-26-2007, 10:17 AM
#147
Registered User
no the guy never did reply back. I would use a smt6 most definately along with something to retard ignition in relation to boost. With regard to the boosted setup, map sensors are probably the best way to go...
01-26-2007, 10:27 AM
#148
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I'm not sure I understand
I have been wondering about the MAF after installing a K&N cold air intake. The MAF seems like it's too restrictive to let enough air flow in even when fully open. Wouldn't it make sense to make it larger?
01-26-2007, 10:32 AM
#149
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map sensors are a good way to go for general tuning, but a MAF is much more sensitive and also much easier to precisely tune.
01-26-2007, 10:49 AM
#150
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has anyone tried to (hack) a maf sensor before. i used to be into the dsm turbo world and what we would do is take a die grinder and cut some of inside of the maf out. thus making less restriction. i have not looked at the stock v6 maf yet i am very new to the world of toyota. just some thoughts. anyone have a spare maf to try this on?
01-26-2007, 10:50 AM
#151
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the sensor on the 3vze is an AFM, not a MAF sensor.
People bore out MAF sensors....but really with an AFM it can only read as much air volume is able to flow through the tube.
People bore out MAF sensors....but really with an AFM it can only read as much air volume is able to flow through the tube.
01-26-2007, 12:02 PM
#152
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got ya sorry like i said i am new to toyota world i just got my 1st 4 runner last week and i am still learning. is the toyota afm a speed density set up?
Last edited by saleen9973; 01-26-2007 at 12:03 PM.
01-26-2007, 04:14 PM
#153
Registered User
oh cool! So what would be the MAF to use for a 3.0 that's had some work already done to its top end?
Last edited by Bumpin' Yota; 01-26-2007 at 04:16 PM.
03-25-2009, 01:57 PM
#154
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hate to be the bad new's baer but you are to late there is one out all ready and works good
http://www.maftpro.com/tproinfo.shtml
http://www.maftpro.com/tproinfo.shtml
07-05-2012, 05:28 AM
#158
Registered User
i havent heard if the maf conversion ever worked. but nashma00 used a 7mge afm on his 3.0 and it worked great. look up his thread. i did the same thing and the truck is a totally different animal. faster throttle response, pulls hard in all gears, (in 5th gear at 75mph i can put my foot down and go faster to pass people, even up hills) so all in all its the best 50 bucks i spent on my truck from a junkyard. i home built an ISR and plugged the 7mge AFM in and adjusted the fuel spring 6 teeth rich and presto change a 3.GO!!!
07-05-2012, 09:49 AM
#159
Registered User
that sounds like a good idea. is it fully plug n play or do you need to mod it? also have you heard of the small intakes that have the maf sensor and you can wire it into your existing wiring.
07-05-2012, 10:32 AM
#160
Registered User
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...light=7mge+afm
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...light=7mge+afm
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...light=7mge+afm
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...light=7mge+afm
some afternoon reading for you.. yes its pretty much plug n play. slight adjustment of the fuel spring. the whole mod took me 2 hours to do and that was building the ISR and eating lunch,,, enjoy
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...light=7mge+afm
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...light=7mge+afm
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...light=7mge+afm
some afternoon reading for you.. yes its pretty much plug n play. slight adjustment of the fuel spring. the whole mod took me 2 hours to do and that was building the ISR and eating lunch,,, enjoy
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