what kinda gains did they get?

 

The problem is the whole intake not just the VAFM (hmm, where have i heard this before?) Everything above the lower plenum is a mess, to remedy this would require a new upper plenum, larger TB and removal of the AFM. Combine this with exhaust and head mods and I'll bet there are at least 10-15HP in the intake.

 

i found this intake on the web, apparently these guys build intake manifolds and I like what I see!



http://www.full-race.com/catalog/ind...?cPath=133_670

 

Yota,
I dont remember but I'm sure you could call Josh at CPE and he could give you all the info

 

That Full-Race intake looks exactly like the one that rbmc has on his turbo 4Runner with the 3vzfe.

Busjack

 

The kick down cable isnt long enough (I dont think) for that upper manifold since the TB would be waaaaay forward from stock, how did he get around that issue?

 

Ok, This mod that we hoped for didnt come through like we hoped, So I have another Idea that can get us to the same destination on a different route.

Here are some idea that can be put to a thought on those that know how EFI and its componants work.
Why cant the ECU and VAFM/MAFM from a 7M or 5VZ or any other V6 (Even non-toy) be used on a 3VZ inplace of its limited OEM?
I do know its harder to get some of these working on a auto trans but Im sure theres ways to fool the systems to get buy this.

Reason, If for example you were able to adapt/whole harness a 5VZ ECU and MAFS onto a 3VZ, The ECU shouldnt really see any difference sice they both turn the same rpm but only need a rich-lean adjustment ( I know how to do that on VAFM but not on MAFS as of yet).

What can be alterd to compensate for electronic sensors
1. you can use the distributer on the 3VZ to detect cam posission.
2. Alter the sparkplug wires to what plug to change firing order.
3. ( Can anyone else think of anything else)

Why couldnt this work?
Anyone willing to take on this project?

 

It won't work because you are still stuck with crappy intake on the 3vze. Take yours appart and measure the runners and such and you'll see that its a mess. You need to adapt the 5vzfe intake to make those mods work. That is something I am willing to work on in the next year or so.

 

ITB's would work probably with a box plenum and of course proper intake piping (maybe to a snorkel?). Of course the runners would have to be LONG for a better torque curve. Short runners are beneficial for top end power.

If somone has the wiring diagram for our ECU's (2nd gen V6 auto/5speed) I could see if I could do a HKS VPC (vein pressure controller) to go to a speed density ( MAP ) sensor base that would allow us to run custom upper plenums!


The 7m's (GTE turbo) afm is just "larger" than the toyota's (just overall ID of the AFM housing). The Electronics are the same for the 1uzfe and the 7m AFM's. Thats the swap the supra guys do all the time (mated with 550's and a SAFC to tune. Usually with a T4 (various sizes of course) can yield about 450whp easily.

Anywho, I have a couple laying around. I will see if they will work ( doubt it though).
The 3" GM MAF would do the trick though. Wiring it up is not that hard.

-Jonathan Mann

 

Supra, Im looking at more of a whole as an improvment, There are so many restrictions and just bad design that even some small improvement matters.

I keep seeing Larger throttle bodies and there claims, I dont belive them since the VAFM is so much smaller so if thats inproved then you go down the line to the next mod.
Another thing is, We all know that the plenuum can handle alot more because there have been others that have install aftermarket cams and prototype cams Not to mention forced induction via powered or native and gotten alot more out of the engine.
In most cases the plenuum though small ported does use volocity well and thats what needs to be feed from the TB on out.

The ECU's dont gauge rpm, only only how much air is going in and if it needs to lean or richen it as it reads it going out, If you can make the 5VZ ECU to fit on the 3VZ there shouldnt be any trouble since the ECU just thinks the engine doesnt have as much a fuel demand as it would have, This also leave a larger top-end of available fuel for those that do cams or forced induction.

Im also saying that the 5VZ and the 7MG ECU/FI is still more accuratly/Efficiantly control that they have less problems with leanouts compared to the 3VZ version, We all know that Toy tried to build a V6 and get it out as fast as possible to beat the compotission.
I went through a salvage yard a week ago and found most 2.0 4cyl with more airflow design using larger VAFM then the 3vz.

For all those looking at the 7MG VAFM, I saw as many as 5 different versions of the VAFM, Most have simular CFM to eachother but the model #s were different and so were the resitance reading (Some radical to the others)

I know, Im rambling but I want others to see my point why it should work and then tell me why NOT.
I also know some of you think if you go that far then just do a whole 3.4 swap, THats not the point, The cost and time can be much more of a problem and were just looking for a easyer bolton.

 

As for a newer planuum design, I was thinking of a breadloaf style ulluminum box, This will also leave the fuelrail and injectors easy access on the passengerside.
Theres a picture of what Im saying here on the website thats on a v8 cobra engine, Just think smaller.
If somone is good at making headers then they could make Cool looking intake that gives good volocity and ends to where ever you want your AFM to be and leaves the top engine access.

 

Individual Throttle Bodies = ITB's? An awsome idea but I shudder at the thought of trying to tune all 6! lol But more info about ITB's would be pimp!

The problem with using a 5vzfe or 7mgte computer is displacement differences and volumetric efficiency differences as you move up the rpm scale. While you probably could use a 5vzfe PCM to control a 3vze, you'd need a pretty damn good piggyback btwn the two to custom tune the setup.....which would be the same thing if you did a piggyback with the 3vze PCM.

While I think that the VAFM is a huge stricture, i think the heads, cam, and exhaust need work first for the biggest gain, then attacking the VAFM and intake plenum will help and with the previous mods allow gains to the seat-o-pants meter!

but then again I could be way way off base.

 

You don't get it.

The cams are dealing with their own set of problems.

The TB is smaller then on almost all the other 6cyl engines Toyota made. The intake tube between the TB and chamber is smaller then the TB. There are steps in the intake runners that cause eddies restricting flow.

You don't want short runners in a truck like in a sports car bottom line.

Downey already proved that the intake is restricive. The best solution I can think of is to take a 5vzfe intake complete from above the manifold to the TB and work it into the existing system. Actually if you could get Weasy2k's SMT tuned MAS and the 5vzfe intake it might work well and still be easy to install.

 

I would also say that any intake mods will likely only work if you first do valves, cams and exhaust. After all that you might see over 10hp in the intake. At that point you will likely have to change injectors too. Personally I'm planning on skipping the intake and fitting a blower.

 

Forcing air into a space is one thing, sucking air into a space is another.

First rule of FI (forced induction), volume (resulting in overall pressure "boost" or KpA or Psi) is key. In doing so, having a larger area of space in the intake plenum design allows the intake to "store" more air at a given pressure (dependant on how much the turbocharger is allowed to flow at a given wastegate spring tension).

All to say you cannot mix-match a turbo variable with a N/A (naturally aspirated) variable design.

I agree with some others on that the design is very restrictive in overall I/D size of the TB and the intake runners. The length is fine, but if we could some how extrude hone ( I know a couple of shops that can do this) the interior to give more chamber size, we could essentially see a dramatic increase in air in the combustion chamber to take advantage of the compression. Essentially this method on a non-tuned ECU (or piggy back) would result in a motor that would be running lean.

This is where the aftermarket computers come into play. I would love it if someone could find a ECU pin-out so I could hook up an SAFC to measure the base maps of the 3vz computer.

From there we can determine the next phase of modification.

From the larger intake plenum (holding more air, or has the ability to) we can utilize larger profile cams ( duration and possibly lift, depending on what the stock springs can hold).

ITB's would not be hard to tune at all with a MAP sensor based ECU. This is where the HKS VPC system could possibly come into play. Though the E-prom HKS has is custom tuned for specific motors and injector/compression/boost sizes. Since HKS does NOT have a e-prom for the 3vz, I have this to offer:

I could possibly use a 300zx N/A (300cc?) HKS E-prom and run it through the e-prom creator my brother has at his work. We could find the maps or set data points and change them to better suit the 3vz.

(for those of you who dont know, the 89-96' 300zx N/A had a 3 liter V6 rated at 220hp and has about the same rev-cut as the 3vz.) This is possibly the best shot for a "close" match in tune per vehicle.

Afterall, these are just educated guesses we are all making. In the end I will be doing a V8 swap (LT1/LS1) anyways, but just the thought of making this
V6 a nice effecient (through effeciency= HP) motor.

What do you guys think?

-Jonathan Mann

 

Sounds like you know your poop. I say try it. I just installed today my rebuild 3.0 with P&P head, OS SS valves and am ready to start playing with different things. Can I say I already love this new engine!!

 

SO I installed my 3.0 with ported heads, OS SS valves and block decked to zero and damn I like it. Powerband that was 2500-4500 is now about 1800- almost redline pulling all the way. Thats with everything else stock including exhaust. I'll be doing the exhaust soon then take weasy's cams to the dyno, woohoo!

Moves my little truck quite nicely.

 

Well Ive been reading alot about how EFI works, I also knew a little from my Bosch L-series injection that I played around with on my early 70's cars, Not much different still.

(From here I may use AFM in place of VAFM)
My notes about Toy afm are from years 81-95 and some from a chiltons/clymers on the 95.5 3.4 (5vze)
Ive found some neat little secrets while trying to find the technical specs on VAFM but keep running into dead ends, What did find in that area was that Toy used a different AFM in every type of vehical design, Not counting year difference but in some cases yes, Even the 22RE has 4 different versions depending on what year and vehical it is.

ALL 3vze use the same VAFM if anyone is wondering.

Ok, To what some are arguing about that I have found out, EFI is not displacment (eg CI/Liter) sensative, BUT!, Thay all have a minimume and max airflow requirment as do injectors themselves.

The ECU's job/mapping is to make the engine recieve a mixture of 14.5-1 and to do this it knows what metered air is coming in and knows that the injectors spray per pulse a set amount of fuel, The O2 sensor then checks this after the fact and adjust acordingly richer or leaner ( The O2 sensor is disregarded or open looped durring excelleration ).

Note 1. you must use the VAFM/AFM with the ECU it was designed in mind for, That means the you cant mod one or you leave open areas of flow that are not mapped for, Can be bad for serious leanout or hate to say Fuel hydrolock and thats not pretty if it pings.

Note 2. The min/max of a AFM are like this, If you dont have enough flow it will not keep the fuelpump running, If maxed to much en engine can pull more air thought the meter then its normal range and the ECU will only use what readings are at the top of the meter when alot more air is being pulled through, causing top end leanout.

Note 3. All injectors (Not the coldstart) fire/pulse at once and work better pulsing at higher speeds then lower but they too have a max till there just open all the time for a climbing need of fuel that in turn can cause leanout.
Im not sure but I think the difference between ECU's and the number of injectors is how much current the ECU can cope with.

Note 4. A 3 liter engine running at 3k rpm has the same demand as a 6 liter
at 1.5k rpm but if you swapped ECU and AFM from each the the 3 liter could run but if let idle to low it would die from the fuel pump shutting off and the 6 liter would cap and lean out about 3k rpm, Get the idea.

So the idea of using the 5vze or one of the other 3 liter such as the 3vz-fe (pointless if the AFM cfm is the same as the 3vze's) and 1 of the 4 7m-ge's
set ups is completely fesable, IF!, the Cam sensor for the 5vze can be changed to use the 3vze distributor cam/cyl 1 sensor, Same goes for the 7m's, ( I dont know what the 7M uses to note cylinder 1 tdc).

The O2 sensors are most likely different and needed to be changed.

The 3vze injectors might be able to be used but on the 5vze set up it will have to be richen up a bit but still should work fine at top end since the 3vze doesnt have the airflow demand that the 5vze does and its own limiting hardware (plenuum's) but if somone were to change them out for the 5vze injectors then there would be less trouble tuning.
the 7m set up you should be able to use the 3vze injectors since same CFm demand.

Do all the 5vze's use independent coils plug setup? Still not hard to get around that.

All smog and sensors are already the same or interchangable.

I have more but its late and Im getting blury but I had to bring this up.
I need tech readouts for VAFM and the joining ECU's , If somone comes across them could you email or PM

 

_______

 

IDK if this has what you want but. . .

http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-buchanan/93fsm/