Idle/other issues after headgasket replacement
01-20-2013, 07:56 AM
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Idle/other issues after headgasket replacement
Hi, first time posting....in need of some help.
Bought an '88 Toyota pickup with a 22re a week ago for my mom. Needs the 4wd where she lives in the winter. Only had 124k on it, needed a new radiator....but ran real smooth and was solid on the test drive. Guy said he just replaced the timing chain, timing chain guides, water pump, and a variety of other parts.
Replaced the radiator no problem. But couldn't get it working right. Trying to burp all the air out, i'd warm the engine up...park it on a hill, let it cool a bit....take the rad cap off, top it off....turn it on....let it run and wait for any bubbles to come up, and add more fluid as needed. It would bubble some, then the radiator level would rise a lot and overflow like crazy, probably losing a quart or so of fluid. Then drop back down and steam would come out of the cap until i added more fluid, in which case the whole process would repeat.
Started to suspect things were wrong.
Rented an "exhaust gas in coolant test kit." The fluid stayed blue, meaning it showed no exhaust gas in the radiator fluid.
Still had my doubts, so I did a compression test on all cylinders.
On a warm engine...
#1 was 150
#2 was 90
#3 was 120
#4 was 140
crap. From looking around the internet and reading old threads here it sounded a lot like a blown head gasket. So as a super novice mechanic who has never taken an engine apart before....i spent all Friday afternoon and all day saturday replacing the headgasket.
Everything went pretty smoothly. Old head gasket showed an obvious crack in #1 cylinder, all other seemed intact...but rusty around the edges. Didn't notice any obvious cracks or imperfections on the head/block. Made sure to clean the heck out of the bottom of the head/top of the block for the new gasket. Torqued the head bolts down as per the FSM, and in the correct sequence.
Got everything back together, but now on startup the idle is surging a lot. and stepping on the gas it seems like it misfires. This morning i did some more reading and made sure to align the distributor as per the FSM (0* on the crank, distributor in at 12 o'clock). and I found a little coolant hose that connects to the throttle body, near where the top radiator hose connects to the head that had been kinked, and straightened that out.
But it still does the same thing. Would getting a timing gun and making sure its 5* while running change the crazy idle that much?
And to top it off...after running this (surging) way for a couple minutes, the coolant is already overflowing into the overfill container. And probably would start coming out of there if I didn't shut it off.
Re-did a compression test on the not-so-warm engine (which i know will throw the readings off some, but was still curious to see if my headgasket repair made a difference).
Consistent 120psi in all cylinders.
I'm stumped. Any help would be greatly appreciate, or if you're in Boulder, CO and want to make a quick buck this Sunday I'd be up for that too.
Bought an '88 Toyota pickup with a 22re a week ago for my mom. Needs the 4wd where she lives in the winter. Only had 124k on it, needed a new radiator....but ran real smooth and was solid on the test drive. Guy said he just replaced the timing chain, timing chain guides, water pump, and a variety of other parts.
Replaced the radiator no problem. But couldn't get it working right. Trying to burp all the air out, i'd warm the engine up...park it on a hill, let it cool a bit....take the rad cap off, top it off....turn it on....let it run and wait for any bubbles to come up, and add more fluid as needed. It would bubble some, then the radiator level would rise a lot and overflow like crazy, probably losing a quart or so of fluid. Then drop back down and steam would come out of the cap until i added more fluid, in which case the whole process would repeat.
Started to suspect things were wrong.
Rented an "exhaust gas in coolant test kit." The fluid stayed blue, meaning it showed no exhaust gas in the radiator fluid.
Still had my doubts, so I did a compression test on all cylinders.
On a warm engine...
#1 was 150
#2 was 90
#3 was 120
#4 was 140
crap. From looking around the internet and reading old threads here it sounded a lot like a blown head gasket. So as a super novice mechanic who has never taken an engine apart before....i spent all Friday afternoon and all day saturday replacing the headgasket.
Everything went pretty smoothly. Old head gasket showed an obvious crack in #1 cylinder, all other seemed intact...but rusty around the edges. Didn't notice any obvious cracks or imperfections on the head/block. Made sure to clean the heck out of the bottom of the head/top of the block for the new gasket. Torqued the head bolts down as per the FSM, and in the correct sequence.
Got everything back together, but now on startup the idle is surging a lot. and stepping on the gas it seems like it misfires. This morning i did some more reading and made sure to align the distributor as per the FSM (0* on the crank, distributor in at 12 o'clock). and I found a little coolant hose that connects to the throttle body, near where the top radiator hose connects to the head that had been kinked, and straightened that out.
But it still does the same thing. Would getting a timing gun and making sure its 5* while running change the crazy idle that much?
And to top it off...after running this (surging) way for a couple minutes, the coolant is already overflowing into the overfill container. And probably would start coming out of there if I didn't shut it off.
Re-did a compression test on the not-so-warm engine (which i know will throw the readings off some, but was still curious to see if my headgasket repair made a difference).
Consistent 120psi in all cylinders.
I'm stumped. Any help would be greatly appreciate, or if you're in Boulder, CO and want to make a quick buck this Sunday I'd be up for that too.
Last edited by fishftw; 01-20-2013 at 08:08 AM.
01-20-2013, 09:02 AM
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oh....and where's this wire supposed to end up, and could it be the cause of the idle issue?
its tied to a couple other bigger wires, and towards the back of the TB between that and the valve cover. and i don't remember disconnecting it from anything.
its tied to a couple other bigger wires, and towards the back of the TB between that and the valve cover. and i don't remember disconnecting it from anything.
01-20-2013, 09:30 AM
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It sounds like a vacuum hose was overlooked. Or 1 of nine million other things. Did you have the head checked out at a machine shop for cracks? Have you driven it to get it up to temp?
01-20-2013, 09:34 AM
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its fuel injected.
didn't have time to get head checked out, unfortunately. haven't driven it up to temp, cause i'm not sure it'll even drive the way its idling/misfiring.
i've poked around quite a bit, and besides that wire i can't find anything that's disconnected or obviously broken/leaking.
didn't have time to get head checked out, unfortunately. haven't driven it up to temp, cause i'm not sure it'll even drive the way its idling/misfiring.
i've poked around quite a bit, and besides that wire i can't find anything that's disconnected or obviously broken/leaking.
01-20-2013, 10:11 AM
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get a can of starter fluid. spray around the throttle body, the intake, and vacuum hose connections. if you hear the engine rev up, you found the leak. also, you can try cleaning out the throttle body with some carb cleaner and a rag.
if that connector looks dirty inside, then most likely it hasnt been connected for a while. could be for an accessory or something
if that connector looks dirty inside, then most likely it hasnt been connected for a while. could be for an accessory or something
01-20-2013, 10:13 AM
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well now it's not even trying to turn over.
just hear a buzzing/whirring when the keys turned.
and i'm thinking at least some of the weird idling is due to the TPS. like an idiot when i took the TB off, i just screwed it instead of unplugging it....not realizing its orientation was important.
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...roubleshooting
sounds like the issue i have.
but i don't have an ohm meter, and even if i did, i'm not sure id know how to follow the instructions on that page to get it right.
just hear a buzzing/whirring when the keys turned.
and i'm thinking at least some of the weird idling is due to the TPS. like an idiot when i took the TB off, i just screwed it instead of unplugging it....not realizing its orientation was important.
Symptoms of a bad or mis-adjusted TPS include:
Inability to correctly set base ignition timing:
i.e. you jumper the timing check connector and the idle and timing don't change
Varying idle speed, unstable idle or even mis-firing at idle:
This can happen because if the IDLe-E2 contact closure is not detected, the ECU is "running the engine real slow" vs. entering the stable idle mode. At low RPM and load, all the typical ECU sensor inputs may not be accurate and the ECU is trying to guess what is going on and adjust engine parameters on the fly. In normal idle, the ECU likely has a sort of pre-programmed loop it enters and ignores a lot of the sensor "noise".
Note that a low coolant level can affect this as well, if air pockets reach the temperature sender, the ECU can get false readings of engine temperature and alternate between cold and warm idle speeds.
Inability to correctly set base ignition timing:
i.e. you jumper the timing check connector and the idle and timing don't change
Varying idle speed, unstable idle or even mis-firing at idle:
This can happen because if the IDLe-E2 contact closure is not detected, the ECU is "running the engine real slow" vs. entering the stable idle mode. At low RPM and load, all the typical ECU sensor inputs may not be accurate and the ECU is trying to guess what is going on and adjust engine parameters on the fly. In normal idle, the ECU likely has a sort of pre-programmed loop it enters and ignores a lot of the sensor "noise".
Note that a low coolant level can affect this as well, if air pockets reach the temperature sender, the ECU can get false readings of engine temperature and alternate between cold and warm idle speeds.
sounds like the issue i have.
but i don't have an ohm meter, and even if i did, i'm not sure id know how to follow the instructions on that page to get it right.
Last edited by fishftw; 01-20-2013 at 10:19 AM.
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01-24-2013, 07:01 PM
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so a local toyota mechanic says there's most likely a warped/cracked head thats obviously leaking exhaust gas straight into the coolant. didn't want to keep it running long enough to diagnose the idle surging.
if i get something like this...
http://denver.craigslist.org/ptd/3545342941.html
or order one from ENGNBLDR.COM
is it pretty much plug-and-play? or is there a lot of valve/timing adjustment that goes into it?
if i get something like this...
http://denver.craigslist.org/ptd/3545342941.html
or order one from ENGNBLDR.COM
is it pretty much plug-and-play? or is there a lot of valve/timing adjustment that goes into it?
01-25-2013, 02:34 AM
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Do a coolant pressure test to rule out cracked head. You can get one at Sears, NAPA, etc. You'll want to remove the spark plugs first.
When you say you screwed the TB instead of uplugging it, what are you talking about?
When you say you screwed the TB instead of uplugging it, what are you talking about?
Last edited by TNRabbit; 01-25-2013 at 02:36 AM.
01-25-2013, 05:38 AM
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unscrewed the TPS from the throttle body, instead of just unplugging the connector to it.
03-06-2013, 09:05 AM
#14
Plugged the hose back in where it was supposed to be. Adjusted TPS and timing, tightend a few loose bolts on the starter, valve adjustment for the new head, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. Left him a list of grease 'sert to clean off and fill. Last I heard it was running fine and off to it's intended driver soon.
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