muddpigg

iTrader: (1)

OK, H2O is a covalent bond not ionic. Thus it take energy to break the bond and energy to make it bond. Too easy right. So yes a vehicle can run on hydrogen, and the spark in the combustion chamber is the energy need to start the reaction that creates water. So if you seperate the components of water and have them piped right back into the cylinder and recombined or whether you pipe hydrogen in to the cylinder mix it with Air (21% oxygen, 78% nitrogen, and other stuff) and ignite in, the out come is really the same.

All this is the same concept of using gasoline and air. Adding something to the combustion chamber to get extra is really nothing new. Nitrous produces extra free oxygen to burn more gas. Turbos compress air to get more oxygen in to the combustion chamber as well.

To overcome the limitations of carborator floats and inclines, some use propane kits. Once again same principle just different ingedients. The end results is the same, the wheels go round and round.

The Hydrogen vehicles GM is looking at uses a process similar to the Electron train in cellular respiration (Kreb's cycle, but actually a step or two past the kreb's cycle) this produce electron movement and when directed into current become electricity (not like cellular respiration). The Bad thing is that their "hydrogen electricity generators" can't be retro fitted into our wonderful little trucks.

I recall seeing some where that some fuels are hydrogenated, you know dissolving hydrogen into it. When they do it to food oils its called trans fatty acid (hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated oil) bad for your body sick to butter, but that's another topic.

I hope this is now clear as mud.

MMA_Alex

which of the great state of maines schools would that be?

no clutch in any i've ever seen. the feedback loop is almost instantaneous, and thats the job of the voltage regulator, to regulate voltage, which it does by varying the electromagnets strength.

No doubt you can do it, but I dont see there being a net gain of energy because you're converting between forms of energy several times, and none of this stuff is all that efficient (starting with burning gas to create the electricity @ `35% efficiency)...

CyMoN

last night I started to research this to see if it is a false thing or if it would work
the links on my previous post about Stanley Meyer I think he was on to something I read and watched a few other peoples logs of their cells they made.
most of the ones I had seen they are running around 10 amps and 250 watts to produce the HHO.

the ones Stanley had made where running 1/2 a amp that and his control box is not a direct device compared to many of the ones that are newer.

the ones you see online for the cars seem to be too small to run a car and do not have the right electrical components to really work efficiently.

I really wish my grand father was still alive he was a old school electrician this was right up his ally when it comes to capacitors and resistors to change the currents so they are more efficient.

this idea also seems like it would work better for carbed motors then fuel injection.
it is also true that if it dose work there would be many very rich people who suddenly would not be getting any richer and would not want too see something like this hit the main stream.

I will keep a open mind about this but I still have not found the proving info that that a DIY can make and maintain something like this to power their car or truck except Stan Meyers sand rail.

chadbobb

this looks intersting

renofox

so far chemests are fighting to save there reputation. this process seems to break some of the laws of thermodynamics. cry me a river, build me a bridge and get over it. people thought electricity was fake or magic or unbelievable until it was being used all around them. there has never been a statue raised for a critic & almost all great men who have fought the ignorant masses, the critics that had a vision of what was possible.

so far research shows
- this is a possible overunity situation. more energy created than input. watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO15VGtKZo0

- the 25% burn effeciency of gasolene gets boosted by having hydrogen gas and oxigen gas in the mix, thus requiring less gass, even NO gas but that requires timing adjustments, spark gapping changes, rust proof exhaust
- HHO gas is used as the primary gas in arc welding. watch this example
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/335674..._fueled_torch/

advise...
- talk is cheap. test it your self. you only know what you do yourself. Be a man(or woman) of action vs a man of talk talk talk.

- keep an open mind. theres enough crying whining, problems in the world. have a vision for the future and start moving toward it. what's great about this? if things don't work out the way expected ask 'whats great about this? edison did that 1000 times before the lightbulb was complete.

- respect and work together. if you put us all in the room and we debated it would do very little. If we all had our trucks in a mega garage together and asked HOW CAN WE build a water 4x4. it WOULD happen.


J

eric-the-red

Actually the correct chemical name is dihydrogen monoxide, and it's very dangerous stuff

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

aviator

interesting links there renofox...
honestly some of this stuff has me thinking it might be posible... if I had a second vehicle to test some of these things out on I might even try some of them out but I'm too chicken to mess with my dd just yet lol...
I will be putting a couple of cells on my cap roof though even if a little load gets taken off the alt. it would be worth it...

chadbobb

A lot of people here keep trying to say this has to be fake, yet if you go to unitednuclear.com and check out the system they were developing to run cars completely on hydrogen using an external hydrogen generator (not part of the car) they mentioned that during research they figured out that adding very small amounts of hydrogen gas to the gasoline as it entered the engine it caused huge increases in mpg. They figured it was because it increased the efficiency of the fuel because the hydrogen is more reactive than gasoline.

So people saying this can't work because you are wasting energy in the hydrogen process imagine this. You have a regular engine that is lets say 25% efficient. You send gas and hydrogen gas into the engine and it suddenly becomes %50 efficient - but you have to put big tanks in the car that add small amounts of hydrogen.

Now instead of using those huge tanks you just grab a little jar that makes small amounts of hydrogen continuously - yes it takes a little bit of the energy that was moving the car in the first place and you would think that means that the car is going to be 25% efficient wasting some energy which would cause your gas mileage to go up. But you have to include that now your vehicle is really 50% efficient, and your only wasting small amounts of energy creating that hydrogen.

Im not saying that this water4gas thing really works - but i do know that mixing hydrogen with gasoline and tuning the engine to run with both gas and hydrogen can increase your gas mileage up to 40%. It isn't because the hydrogen is replacing some of the gas - its because when an engine combusts a lot of the energy is wasted in heat - you cannot get around this. But what else happens is that a lot of that gas is thrown out of the car in the exhaust and burned in the catalytic converter (we all know its to help the environment). I think the hydrogen just helps burn all the gas in the engine - so lets is wasted and less ends up in the exhaust




In fact - I just found this

Spence1016

as far as using energy from the alternator making it inefficient goes, I believe that this is not true because when the truck is there idling its not like 100% of the energy from the combustion of fuel is going towards the charging system, i have a 2000 watt 60 amp sound system and when i turn it up i dont see an increase in engine rpm's to struggle to keep up with the alternators demand because enough mechanical energy is already being sent there that could be used for the electrolysis process

gixxerjesse

i recieved the file from renofox thanks by the way. and as far as i know none of the ney-sayers have

i have just skimmed over it for a few minutes. it seems like it isn't too extreamly hard to do and if i do it and improve my MPG by 2 i think it would pay off and i think if it would increase by 10 then why not try it. i have also been looking on the net and found no info so far that it won't improve my MPG's plus he is giving the file for free why not and the engineer's and chemists or ones who play them on this board can look it over and say for them selfs.

i am in no way a hippie or anything of that nature i am an average guy who loves tinkering with engines, but i would like to buy what this guy is selling especially since it is free

Victor

Geez relax already. Can someone host this file so we can all look at it? Really - I think most of us want solid info and so far this discussion seems to just site anecdotal proof. Sorry, but numbers won't lie. There are some companies selling products out there - and I have seen the videos of how well this stuff cuts thick steel and how it can be used to weld. Here's where some of the confusion starts - one site claimed that cast iron could be welded this way. Another site says it welds all metals except cast iron. etc.

Let's see a simple diagram of his setup, a layman's explanation as to its workings, and then some sort of data. If someone can do that then I don't see why anyone here wouldn't try it also and then we can all chime in with anecdotal evidence of how great it worked. Again, the numbers won't lie...

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

While you are correct in saying 100% of your engine output does not go to the alternator, some of it does does. 2000W is only about 3 HP and that 2000W is only for very short peaks, so you probably don't notice it. I know my 2300 watt alternator/welder will suck down the engine speed when you strike an arc with the welding rod.

But that said, 100% of the power the alternator puts out does come from the engine. And if you consider a typical gas engine @ 20% efficiency driving an alternator at say 90% efficiency to electrolyze water at maybe 50% efficiency to then burn that gas in the gas engine @ 20% efficiency you end up with not a lot to show for it all.

aviator

True but if adding hydrogen gas increases the efficiency of the gas engine why not give 'er a go?...
On the other hand at the risk of an explosion in a collision you could carry a tank of compressed hydrogen from a welder's supply and plumb an injection port into the intake. Just don't get hit or bounce off a rock too hard is all...

chadbobb

or you could use these tanks that have no risk of explosion at all http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2new.htm

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

Sure, if you can get the hydrogen for free then go for it. If you have to pay for it, you may get a little more power, but it'll cost some change. Plus you have the nasty problem of hydrogen embrittlement in steel.

http://vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewt...9f2e05fd0969ed

Cyberman

Just for entertainment, or to ponder more...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...29493419202077

mastacox

Everyone is always interested in "free energy," but unfortunately all of the posters in this thread have essentially wasted their time because the whole "HHO gas" thing is B.S.

Water is a byproduct of a combustion process (Hydrogen and oxygen burning), NOT a fuel source waiting to be tapped. At best, it is a method of perhaps storing a little bit of energy through electrolysis (and inefficiently at that). There is no net energy available from elecrolyzing water and then burning it, you can only get back what you put in, and in real life you get far less, since electrolysis is a terribly inefficient process (around 50-70% I think), and paired with all of the other losses in the system (engine, alternator, etc.) you're just wasting your time.

HHO gas (a.k.a. electrolysis, even though the crackpots vehemently deny any association to standard electrolysis) is a bunch of crackpottery that germinated from a couple of guys thinking they had discovered something new when they ran some high voltage through water. There's nothing special about it, and it certainly doesn't net any benefits in your engine.

I've been in many discussions about this. I'm telling ya, it's a total waste of time. Period. Spend your money on something else, like a Turbonator

chadbobb

people aren't trying to get energy from the hydrogen as you guys are acting

People are trying to get the energy available in their gas to to be used more. Our engines not only waste energy to heat but waste energy to dumping out unburned fuel. This process is supposed to cause the fuel to burn more complete - IT IS NOT I REPEAT NOT expected as a fuel source in itself.

I am still not saying it will work. obviously people are skimming this stuff and not really reading it. Maybe read the link i posted to the "how stuff works" article (which generally uses stored and manufactured hydrogen - not this "water in a jar" idea). If you read that you would see real research has been done and proves that hydrogen added and mixed with gas (in the engine, not in the gas tank or any b.s. like that) can increased fuel by around 40% because it is burning the gas more completely (meaning you can run the engine more lean which in turn causes your gas mileage to go up)

Don't skim through a thread and articles posted without reading whta its really about.

BTW just to clarify - I am not saying this little design scheme really works. It could be a scam from hell. But the concept makes sense when you pay attention to THIS concept and realize people aren't saying you are going to use the process as a fuel source, but use the process as a catalyst to your existing fuel source.

Kiwipushrod

CyMoN

hahahaha I remember that site.