notanymore

that website is awesome lol

AxleIke

I was starting to get excited until I saw the post about breaking the laws of thermodynamics.

Doesn't happen, get over it.

MANY others have tried "miracle" solutions. Read the book "Voodoo Science" by Robert Park. A great read.

mastacox

As long as your engine is running properly, you're burning all of the fuel without the help of any additional systems. That's why your engine has an oxygen sensor- it can turn up or down the amount of fuel being delivered to ensure complete combustion.

First of all, HowStuffWorks.com is not an authoratative peer-reviewed scientific publication. Secondly, in the article they mention an "industry accepted" study using theoretical computer simulations, but provide no link to it or even a simple author or title. So I would say that the results of this article are not yet confirmed or denied.

That being said, HowStuffWorks doesn't say adding hydrogen to a standard engine will produce a 40% increase in fuel efficiency. What they DO say is that adding Hydrogen to an air-fuel mixture in a specially-designed engine could in theory produce a 20-30% increase in fuel economy over a standard engine.

So basically a high compression small displacement turbocharged engine designed to run on hydrogen-gasoline blend could in theory net an efficiency increase of 20-30% over a "conventional" engine (whatever a "conventional" engine is, probably a standard naturally-aspirated engine). That doesn't mean that adding hydrogen to your fuel will make it burn more completely or that you will see a 40% increase in fuel economy.

It's actually not surprising that an engine running high compression and a turbocharger will be more efficient than a "standard" engine anyway. High compression ratios net higher efficiencies, and turbochargers also increase the efficiency of an engine. It's very possible the projected gains don't really have anything to do with the hydrogen in the fuel, other than allowing the engine to run at much higher compression ratios than would otherwise be possible. With the advent of direct-injection systems on gasoline engines, it's possible this won't matter at all.

I know excatly what this thread is about- adding hydrogen into you engine to gain 40% in fuel efficiency though a "more complete combustion" of your gasoline. What I'm telling you is that it isn't possible.

Victor

Not my words but stuff I found from Roger's link: "Based upon chemical considerations alone if hydrogen is considered the only usable product the conversion is only 11% efficent! "

Not to mention that the stuff damages normal metals, is corrosive, damages DNA, and oh yeah, Hydrogen is explosive if you do form it.

tc

I don't think anyone here would argue that adding a flammable substance to the intake will increase gas mileage. Of course it does - you're adding more fuel, but not counting it!

Running lean will increase your mileage too, but results in more heat which can damage the engine.

My issue is that there is NO WAY you are creating hydrogen (or anything else you want to call it - HHO, Brown's Gas, fart, whatever) without a TON of energy. Molten metals at 3000F will barely disassociate water in H2 and O2. Sure an electric arc is hotter than that, but you don't have a lot of power behind it in this system.

But, I would be perfectly willing to do the statistical analysis of the effects. Just post up 10 tanks worth of gas mileage data before installing the system and then 10 after. This should represent a variety of driving, so city/highway gets cancelled out between the two groups. Mileage must be calculated EXACTLY the same way. Don't go changing gears or tires in the middle! Check/adjust your tire pressure daily.

Post up the 20 tanks worth of data, I'll plug it into Mintab and run a 2 sample T-test comparing the averages and standard deviations and evaluate the two sample groups against the null hypothesis that they are the same. If there is a statistical difference, I will be able to reject the null hypothesis and say the groups are not the same, and that, in fact, the mileage between the two populations is different.

Until that is done by someone, ANYONE, I'll chalk this up to black magic.

AxleIke

We dissociate water at work too.

We use depleted uranium at 600 deg C.

It has to be done in a vacuum, and would require an alternator running 240 volts and a continuous 200 amps.

I've done the whole electrolysis thing in school. It took a lot to get a little.

Good luck. Post up when you get it done.

abj27

Reno, you started this whole thread, and you probably feel like you have caught alot of crap for it. Anyway, I must say I'm a little skeptical, but still interested to see what has happened since your last post. Any progress? Any results to report? Despite all the argument, I am pretty interested to hear what your experience is. Let us all know...

MonsterMaxx

I'm also highly skeptical, but then again, there's all kinds of new cool 'Green' technology coming out. Some good stuff and some hoax.

It'll be interesting to see what this one turns out to be...

Kinked

just to play devils advocate.... and maybe bring something to peoples attention.... 10 years ago if you said you'd be able to run an engine off of veggie oil, you would have been laughed at.... i'm staying open minded about this.. and just thought i'd throw my .02 in... and reno... if you get some results please post them either way so we can all know if it works or not.

drguitarum2005

we just need to find a way to break the second law and create electrical or mechanical power from heat alone...reroute the exhaust through a "magic box" with an output shaft on it that is spinning (due to the heat, im not talking due to the flow) to make some more electrical power or something

on a side note, if solar panels were cheaper i'd cover my roof with them and tie them into the alternator. on sunny days i could at least supplement the electrical system of my truck with the solar energy, causing my alternator (and thus engine) to work less to provide the same power

tc

I think people have known for a long time that you could run veggie oil in a diesel - I just think gas was so cheap that it wasn't worth it. There's a huge interest now because gas is considerably more expensive.

Good to keep an open mind - bad to be suckered by false or misleading data. That's why I want to analyze some real world data...

eric-the-red

Rudolf Diesel actually designed the engine to run on veggie oil, he originally used peanut oil. The switch to petroleum diesel fuel came when the oil companies realised that this was a perfect market one of their left over byproducts.

Kinked

Interesting... i didn't know that.... learn a new thing evryday

aviator

You don't necessarily have to generate the "H" yourself you could just use a tank of compressed from the welders supply and fire it through an injector in the intake as I suggested in a previous post. though this might negate any personal $ savings.

FredTJ

And, along the same line, here's another:
The original Fords were designed to run on alcohol.
It's only after the fact that they were switched to gasoline, which was simply a waste, byproduct, of kerosene product and was, originally, just burned off.





Fred

FredTJ

How about converting kinetic energy to electrical....
That would be good.
Oh, wait, that's already happening.

KERS... (Kinetic Energy Recovery System).
One of our Toyota's have a KERS system in place that works great !!

BTW, watch F1 next year.
The FIA rules that the F!'s must have KERS in place that'll recover 70 HP that can be used for up to 6 seconds (overtaking burst) per lap.




Fred

gamerndm

Isnt that called a steam engine?

tc

Steam turbines work by impingement - the flow of steam hits the "bucket" which then turns the shaft.

A "bucket" looks EXACTLY like a turbine blade - you would be hard pressed to see the difference. One of my customers explained why they are called buckets and blades:
- buckets go in steam turbines, which are the next iteration of a water wheel, which has buckets
- blades go in gas turbines, which are the next iteration of propeller engines, propellers have blades

Ya never know what you'll lean on yotatech, huh?

FredTJ

You don't have to break any physical laws to convert heat to electricity, heat alone, not flow. It's already done in several ways.
As before, keep an eye on F1 cars in the next few years.
You'll see that technology on those cars also.




Fred

SEAIRESCUE

The current problem with H2O splitting and collecting the hydrogen is efficient compressing the hydrogen to a density that is useful to an internal combustion engine. There are numerous federal grants funding this research. So, this is why you can not run a 14:1 gasoline engine on the hydrogen created through electrolosis at atomospheric pressure. And, in the world of science, there is no 100% efficient conversion of energy. So, the HHO bait being pandered on the internet is worthless. It will not noticably improve the efficiency of your gas engine but it will put a smile on the goober that sold you the kit.

Sorry