Gregery

I've seen a few mods on the Starting circuit.. a few here on Yotatech.

Starter Relay Re-Wire or Retrofit for 95 and earlier Trucks / 4Runner

But I also found a different Mod on YT. A FORD Starter Solenoid Conversion. which seems FAR simpler. ... And I really like Simple!


So I'm wondering what you people think about the idea. The concept is to attach a Ford Starter Solenoid to the fender, it is to be Actuated by the Starter switch. And triggers the Original Starter & Solenoid.
The Positive Battery wire is removed from the Starter, The Positive Battery wire goes to the Ford Solenoid, the other side is connected to the starter with a new heavy gauge wire. The Toyota Solenoid Trigger is connected with a Jumper from the Positive to the trigger with a short 2 inch 12 gauge wire used as a jumper.

What do you guys think?

Here's the video
Update/Recap -- on my truck 88 Pickup Manual 4x4... I've been having starting issues for Several years. Turns out, I (not entirely/exactly) chased my own tail on this for all these years.
(My Fuel injectors were leaky, the Knock sensor wire was severed by rats. Cracked and Leaking Intake tubes. Improper adjustment on the MFAV(?) MVAF? .. . .. VMAF??? .. ... you know what I mean)
The engine ran super lean sometimes, and super rich other times, Sometimes the truck wouldn't start, the engine would flood, and then it wouldn't get fuel at all. Sometimes it wouldn't start and a few hours later it would, but would blow a ton of black smoke, and then it would run right for a week.

Well I've done a lot under the hood last year, and even more After the virus hit. New Fuel Pump, And a permanent fuel pressure gauge under the hood made diagnosis That Much easier. (No trouble there any more.) A Cold air intake solved the air leaks (And made room for a second battery which is pretty awesome!), I got a Used -- Untampered-with MFAV (Intake Mass Air Volume Thing) . New Injectors that don't leak. I'm not going to mention other Controversial mods so much.. .. .. It's running pretty good now.. .. well, that is to say when it does start. But.. .... it's not starting at all.. again..

Maybe a month ago?? it was doing the same thing, (Mostly I only use the truck for Moving big or heavy shtuff, It's not Entirely off road ready yet.) I came to the conclusion that, maybe the solenoid (in the starter) might be dirty. (I HAVE rebuilt the Starter, Well The solenoid Part, by installing new contacts before.. And THAT time,It was Dirty and the contacts were worn a little bit. So, I'd be surprised if it needed cleaning or new contact so soon, :Edit: WOW That was 6 years ago???) But also, I've bought 4 motorcycles in the last two years? The truck is parked next to my daily driver. Though I do have oil leaks in various places on the engine.. Maybe the starter needs cleaning?? I decided to Pull the starter off to see if it needed that, and do so. Well, only having the Starter bolts backed out just a little. Removing the Starter is a PITA! I Remember THAT SHTUFF!! I was able to wiggle the starter bit, knowing I'd be able to remove it with my current tools and not needing to run anywhere for more. (My tools have changed) I was ABOUT to disconnect the wires, when, I noticed the Starter Trigger wire, was bent fairly abruptly, "That's how the wire was naturally sitting??" I stopped right there.. I didn't disconnect it, pushed the bolts back in, reconnected the battery and.. ... it started right up!!! It ran for most of August (Though it's not my daily driver, Most days I'm on the Suzuki.) Well yesterday the truck wouldn't start .. .. Last month Just wiggling the starter and trigger wire allowed the truck to start up! That didn't work this time. (There are no rats where I live now, There are too many Cats for that. ... UGH SO Many Farrell Cats!! At least they don't chew on anything!) The wire is not severed, but I wouldn't say it's up to par either, I'd like to replace it.. But There is also the motivation issue, (I'm working on a Harley Also.) If I can get an upgrade / Preventative wiring solution for longevity, that will serve as motivation.

Today I'll be using a Voltage meter to test the wire. I devised a way to test it this morning. to see how Good/Bad that wire is.
Any other ideas or help would be appreciated.
Thanks.

old87yota

The thread you found (Starter Relay Re-Wire or Retrofit for 95 and earlier Trucks / 4Runner) is the correct way to to fix the common starter relay wiring problem that these trucks have.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the relays themselves. Toyota originally used the relay to add "clutch start cancel" or "safety cancel" button to Trucks and 4Runners with manual transmissions, but didn't take advantage of the relay to keep the high current (10-12 amps) off of the ignition switch and long runs of wiring going to and from the ignition switch. This high current wears out the ignition switch and causes a relatively large and unnecessary voltage drop along the ignition switch wiring. A worn out ignition switch along with bad connections and the voltage drop of the wiring over time doesn't allow enough current for the starter solenoid to engage, which keeps the starter form turning on. This is the problem that the rewire is trying to solve.

The rewire removes the high current off of the ignition switch and associated wiring and passes that current through the relay. The only starter current going through the ignition switch is now just from the relay coil which is much less.

Don't confuse a starter relay with a starter solenoid. On these trucks, the starter relay is the small gold box bolted to the passenger side fender and the starter solenoid is built into the starter motor assembly.


The Ford starter solenoid install as shown in the video does not correct any of the wiring problems mentioned in the thread above. In fact, the way the Ford solenoid was wired in the video just complicates the existing problem.

All the guy in the video did was add an extra solenoid to the circuit, which is unnecessary, because there is already one built into the starter! The only thing that mod might have going for it is if the Ford Solenoid uses substantially less current (like 10x less) than the one built into the starter, but I doubt it.

RAD4Runner

Need to specify your problem. No crank as in starter not turning the engine, OR no combustion as in no VROOM?
If no crank... Like Old87Yota says above.
You have a manual trans so you should already have the starter relay that is wired wrong from the factory. Just rewire it for $15 worth of parts.

Gregery

Think I got it figured out... 99.9% sure it was the starter. I tested the starter trigger wire, it seemed pretty good. So I resolved to removed the starter for bench testing.. but this time, actually do so... Well I have the Header kit. which wasn't easy to install. The starter is impossible to remove without at least moving the Header, (Maybe unless you have a body lift?? Either way would still be difficult.) I was able to remove the bolts, but the starter is trapped in its space, until the Header lifted up a a few inches....
(.. ... Installing the Header, though required battery removal, AC compressor lines disconnected, Power steering pump swung down, and it helps to have the Break line Bracket removed or dismounted, but I found today that that wasn't necessary) I was able to lift the header a few inches without actually removing the battery... But, all this work and thinking about it all.. .. I believe the header may have worsened the already present issues with the starter motor.. (I'll find out later).. .. I don't have a bench...and didn't really want to take it to the Local Auto place for a Bench test... I'm replacing the battery Positive/Starter wire and lugs. So I used the top of the engine as a bench, with jumper cables for a ground, connected the Battery positive, I've been planning on replacing the Battery wires anyways pulled the wire out and used them for the test, I just need to build the new wires.. And The starter had NO reaction the first few times Jumping the terminals!!

Thinking a bit more.. while " " bench " " testing the Starter... I went and got new starter, (A Duralast, it's lighter May have some aluminum parts instead of all copper.. I hope it lasts!?!?!? Some say These replicas don't have the longevity of an OEM... But my local store had One HERE, a quarter mile away... And they don't sell the rebuild kit any more... What a load of crap!) I'll be needing to install the Starter, reinstall the Header, the intake manifold.. the throttle body... the battery... the hoses to he AC compressor.. re tighten the Power steering belt... .. .. .. . And.. what if I need to replace the starter again??!?!??!? THIS Is DUMB!! ... If I wanted the Header all the way out, All I got to do is actually lift the battery out, which was already disconnected... And that's when I decided YES!!!! . .. . . . I'm going back to the original Manifold!!! .. .. .. But Modified.. ... . I picked up Welding this year... So... Another Welding project to add to the list?? YES... It's decided!! I'm just going weld up my own exhaust, for what was the real goal of the headers It wasn't the horse power I was really looking for, I just wanted a Cross-Over-Delete.... So... I decided to pull the Header out completely.... I'm going to use it as an Exhaust Tip, MAD MAX Style. (My truck is already half way there... So.. Why Not??)

Starter Install was FAR Easier without any Exhaust pipes there, Bolts were easy to access.. Starter was easy to hold up while driving the bolts in.

I'm going to disassemble the Original Starter. to see where and how it failed. I may want to reinstall it later on. The originals are supposed to last longer right?


Well, Thanks for the input.

atcfixer

iTrader: (1)

Get your starter rebuild kit online, it's like $15 or so. The contacts and pluger are real common across toyota starters and some other brands too that use the same mfg starter.

For bench testing the starter, personally I'd bench test it in the vehicle xD. Hook a 1/4in female terminal with a long lead wire to the trigger wire, leave battery cables hooked up like normal. Make sure you're in neutral or park and hit the trigger wire to the battery positive. If the solenoid clicks, that part is actually working, if no click at all, then the solenoid's coil might be bad. If starter doesn't try to turn the engine over at all, it's probably the contacts in the solenoid. Only exception to this is if the engine is locked up (or alternator etc), it won't turn the engine over, but you should hit it spin and catch.

Gregery

Thankyou Guys, (and again for the quick responses.)

RAD4Runner --
The starting issue. Is/Was that there is no Crank.. no spin no rumble... ... no sputter.. Turn the key, I hear 1 Click from the relay... a Faint hum from the Fuel pump, a slight high pitch buzz... and nothing else...

I disconnected the Trigger wire inserted the probe of the MultiMeter: Continuity Mode (/Voltage Chime) Turned the key, and listend for The Chime... No crackling -- Good solid sound from the Voltage meter When turning the key. (I rocked the truck while doing this too just to get some motion in the wire.) I used it this way knowing I wouldn't be able to see the screen for MultiMeter. Leading me to want to pull the starter out for benching... And Benching the starter over the engine showed something is wrong with the starter itself as well.. .. so... problem seems solved.

Benching the Starter in the truck is near impossible. I'm doing all New Battery wires anyways.. and this seems like a good time to do so -- I've put this off long enough!! I can't access the wire post on the other side of the starter. (You must have the 4 Cylinder?? Or Smaller hands than me?)... Especially not with the Header attached. And at that point, Removing everything Just to lift the Header a little... ... just to access the Starter? Well, at that point, there's no reason not to remove the starter.... (And NOT Staying with the Header Mod.. ... It's been Removed.. and I'm Not reinstalling those pipes!! Just because of the trouble the Right side has put me through, relating to the starter.)



Old87Yota - -- Right - right. . not confusing the relay with the Solenoid. Good to clarify tho thanks. In Toyotas (or at least These models?), The Solenoid is a component of the Starter motor itself... (I've replaced the contacts and the plunger before.. I opened it up today the contacts were pretty grimy and a little warn, but not warn out) While, The Relay is on the left wall in the cab, ... left of the clutch pedal, near the Fuses. ... ... Or is it the one above the ECU?!? .. . .. Actually.. I thought it was the one above the ECU. The click I hear comes from the right side in the cab.. .. . I tested for voltage at the small wire to the Starter... That wire gets good voltage when I turn the key.... I disconnected the Fuel pump connector under the passenger seat to be sure I was hearing the Voltage meter sound when I turned the key to for starting, and wanting it to actually start or pump fuel.)

The concept of the Relay rewire fix. Adds another Relay to the circuit. with the purpose of having a shorter, higher amperage circuit to trip the ToyotaStarter (OEM StarterSolenoid). ...

In my mind it's a Very similar mod ... ...
Wiring Fix : A Relay (in the Cab) Triggering a Relay (under the hood), Triggering the Starter's Solenoid (Actuating the plunger) , And Then Turning the starter motor.. ..
Vs The Ford Conversion: The Relay in the Cab, Which Triggers the Ford Solenoid under the hood, which Simultaneously Triggering the ToyotaSolenoid/Plunger And Starter Motor.
The Ford conversion, does have fewer wires and connections, and accomplishing the same task.. (deeper thinking about the matter A Solenoid is Essentially a Giant Relay -- a device that allows a low Amp Circuit to trigger a Higher Amp Circuit.. Solenoids can Connect/Disconnect 0 guage wire directly to Large Batteries). With the FordConversion, Instead of adding a second Relay... another Solenoid is added. And the ToyotaSolenoid&Starter are simultaneously getting tripped directly from the battery. As the trigger is jumped directly from the battery Positive (Through/From the Ford Solenoid).

swampedout

I put one in my 20r toy truck but it was a while ago and Im sure I did it the wrong way. It always starts. But the wiring is a lot simpler in that truck.

Anyways, youre getting a lot of good advice here. Hope you get it worked out

atcfixer

iTrader: (1)

The wiring fix is basically to make the main current draw not pull through the ignition switch. You can use the stock starter relay on the passenger side fender (if you have a manual) and tie the main power feed the relay gets directly from the battery (ideally fused 20-30 amp). I don't know about the extra relay thing, maybe someone's trying to use a common relay instead of the $100+ Toyota relay.

A relay is an electronically controled physical switch (transistor is a solid state version of a relay in simple terms)

Big relays often are called solenoids, but solenoids have a plunger that moves, sometimes to physically move something, like to throw the starter gear out into the flywheel. The Toyota starter solenoid operates more like a relay though, but it does have a plunger so really both terms are correct for it from my understanding. I bought a 200 amp relay for my plow truck, and another one for the glow plugs on my power stroke diesel. The common ford starter relay seems to fail a lot on them for some reason (over used with too high of amps maybe?).

RAD4Runner

$15 Worth of Parts

old87yota

I didn't realize that you had a 3VZ-E, I assumed you had a 22R-E like in the video.

The Ford starter solenoid mod would only work if the coil inside that solenoid draws significantly less current the factory solenoid built into the starter.

The way the solenoids work is by using a coil of wire that, when energized, create a magnetic field. There is a plunger inside that coil of wire that moves when there is a magnetic field. The plunger then makes contact with the contacts that connect to the terminals on the outside of the solenoid, completing the starter circuit.

It requires quite a bit of current to create a strong enough magnetic field for the plunger to strongly move and keep contact with the contacts. Now, the smaller relays do a similar thing, but with much smaller contacts and coils. The coil in the smaller relay use much less current.

The problem with the wiring in these trucks the starter relay isn't wired in the traditional starter relay setup. The load side of the relay is wired in to the ignition switch as well as the coil side. It is essentially wired like having no starter relay at all. The traditional starter relay setup only has the coil of the relay connecting to the ignition switch, with the load side of the relay drawing power from another circuit. The current for the starter solenoid built into the starter goes through the ignition switch, just like if you ran a wire straight through the ignition switch, through the clutch pedal switch, and strait to the starter solenoid with no relay.

Below are some circuits for the current going through the ignition switch:

• The original circuit: battery --> Ignition switch --> both coil and load side of the starter relay --> coil of original starter solenoid (high amps going through ignition switch)

The Ford starter solenoid mod would essentially be wired like this:

• battery --> Ignition switch --> both coil and load side of the starter relay --> Coil of Ford starter solenoid (high amps going through ignition switch)

Without corrected wiring from RAD4Runner's thread:

• battery --> Ignition switch --> coil of starter relay only* (low amps going through ignition switch)

* The starter solenoid is now powered from a separate circuit going through the load side of the starter relay only.

I know, confusing, right?

I can draw a diagram later if needed.

Gregery

Yes, it's the 88 V6 - 3vze, But being the first year of the 3vze, it has a lot in common with the 86 87 88, 22RE. ... Most things for the 3vze are for the years 89 - 92 or 89 - 95... The wiring of the 88 is the same (as far as I am aware) to the 22 RE of 86-88.

(I don't think I'm going to be modifying the Starting Network of wires... I thinking it was just the starter.)


Update on everything else... So... I didn't want to reinstall the Header... ... ... Especially if it was the cause of a burnt out starter... So I got rid of the Header, and Welded up my own exhaust... Also, Because I didn't want to reinstall the cross over Pipe either.. . I Had to cut the exhaust bolts off to remove the Cross over.. So I took the manifold to a machine shop. I chopped the end of Cross over pipe, turned the elbow down, I got a new Down pipe welded together made from pieces of my crossover pipe, and the original tail pipe. And I connected to the down Pipes from the header kit down stream... So, it's still modular if I ever need to do anything under the truck.


Since I had to remove the battery to get the Header out... and because I replaced the starter, I'm redesigning everything around the Battery now.... New Wires, New Terminal Lugs.. .And well.. My Home-Made Driver Side Battery tray and Hold Down bracket for my second battery, Is Immensely better than the Plumbers Tape holding the Battery on the Original, Passenger side. .. ... I really don't want to deal with the plumber's tape that holds the battery in place any more... ... So I'd like to mirror the concept of what I did on the Driver side... But, vertical space seems an issue.. ..


... I should start a thread about This Build.

atcfixer

iTrader: (1)

Plumbers tape isn't factory you know? xD

A build thread wouldn't hurt. The starter might be a tight fit, but I don't see having to remove everything to get to it. You mentioned a header, are you talking factory manifold or aftermarket header? I could see aftermarket being a problem for space to work.

So you're doing a dual battery setup? Is there a reason for that besides longer reserve for cranking time? If it's slow cranking, it could be other issues. I just worked on a friend's 91 with the 22re, the battery cable to engine block rotted apart and the little split off wire to the body ground is what he was starting the truck off of for who knows how long before the wire got burnt and the connection point went bad (through bolt on the fender, hack job work).

Pretty sure 89 4runner was the odd year for things, but I think there was something to do with injectors for 88 only. Been a while since I came across that data though.

For the starter solenoid mod, you legit just cut the wire going to the ignition switch, and run it to battery so it pulls the juice from battery instead of through a mile of wire and the ignition switch, can't really get any simpler than that. There's no reason the clutch cancel etc would be effected by it either.

For battery clamps with custom cables etc, I'd suggest getting MIL spec battery clamps. They are big block with a through bolt for bolting on cables and accessories. I plan to upgrade my ford power stroke battery cables and clamps to them eventually too so the secondary battery can have large wire running to it too (factory it drops down to about 1/2 to 1/3 the wire size from the main battery). There should be wiring coming off of the positive too for the rest of the truck (lights, dash, wipers, etc), so make sure you get that wire hooked back up. Pretty sure factory they run a fuse-able link around that section.

Either case, good luck with all the custom work.