Famous "high idle/surge" culprits!
Jun 9, 2008 | 04:22 PM
#381
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From: Salem, OR
Well, I can see catching up wasn't real necessary....lol!
To be honest, though I know the potential damage than CAN be done with the situation you were in, I'm not real surprised to see the good condition of your motor. Plastigage will tell the truth, but the crank journal looks real good. I'm sure the bearings were just as good, too. AND! The piston looks no worse than mine did when I had mine apart in Jan......well, except I didn't have any broken rings. See? What'd I tell you? 22re's are good motors. Worth the rebuild.
When you get the new rings, check the ring gap in the middle and upper portion of the cylinder bores. That way you can see how much taper the bore has, if any. And, that way you'll know if the cylinders need reboring or just honing.....since there is no unacceptable scoring.
Be sure when you get the ring set to note instructions on or in the box for the proper ring order. You don't want to mix up the scraper and compression rings, nor do you want to install the scraper upside down....if it has a beveled edge. Sometimes they don't, but my Hasting's set did.
On the plastigage.....when you're checking the bearings and journals for wear, note if the plastigage has an even impression across the surface of the journals.....regardless if the impression width is within spec. If not, it'll need to be turned and you'll need oversized bearings. It appears from the reflection of the light, they are evenly worn, though.
Oh, and also if the oil clearances vary widly from the #3 journal and the rest, you should probably have it turned. The only alternative I know of is to order bearings from Toyota that would fit each main and rod journal specifically. But, THAT is expensive. I've checked! It'd be far cheaper to have the crank turned.
Check the end play on the crankshaft, too. The instructions are in the FSM, but if you find no end play has developed then you won't necessarily need new thrustwashers.
Can you take a pic of the bearings? I'd like to see what they look like, if you don't mind. I'm betting they're in good shape and that you could probably reuse them, if you wanted/needed to cut expenses, but you have it all apart and bearings are not really all that expensive to replace. If/when you order new bearings, I'd recommend getting tri-metal ones. They conform better if you don't have the crank turned. From the research I've done, aluminum bearings are a harder material. So, the slight, slight imperfections on the journals get worn off instead of the bearing material, and you'd rather have the bearings conform than the crank. AFAIK, Clevite77's are the only tri-metal bearings available in the U.S anymore.
Anyway, just throwing out more thoughts and options...hehe. Do whatever you're most comfortable with.
To be honest, though I know the potential damage than CAN be done with the situation you were in, I'm not real surprised to see the good condition of your motor. Plastigage will tell the truth, but the crank journal looks real good. I'm sure the bearings were just as good, too. AND! The piston looks no worse than mine did when I had mine apart in Jan......well, except I didn't have any broken rings. See? What'd I tell you? 22re's are good motors. Worth the rebuild.
When you get the new rings, check the ring gap in the middle and upper portion of the cylinder bores. That way you can see how much taper the bore has, if any. And, that way you'll know if the cylinders need reboring or just honing.....since there is no unacceptable scoring.
Be sure when you get the ring set to note instructions on or in the box for the proper ring order. You don't want to mix up the scraper and compression rings, nor do you want to install the scraper upside down....if it has a beveled edge. Sometimes they don't, but my Hasting's set did.
On the plastigage.....when you're checking the bearings and journals for wear, note if the plastigage has an even impression across the surface of the journals.....regardless if the impression width is within spec. If not, it'll need to be turned and you'll need oversized bearings. It appears from the reflection of the light, they are evenly worn, though.
Oh, and also if the oil clearances vary widly from the #3 journal and the rest, you should probably have it turned. The only alternative I know of is to order bearings from Toyota that would fit each main and rod journal specifically. But, THAT is expensive. I've checked! It'd be far cheaper to have the crank turned.
Check the end play on the crankshaft, too. The instructions are in the FSM, but if you find no end play has developed then you won't necessarily need new thrustwashers.
Can you take a pic of the bearings? I'd like to see what they look like, if you don't mind. I'm betting they're in good shape and that you could probably reuse them, if you wanted/needed to cut expenses, but you have it all apart and bearings are not really all that expensive to replace. If/when you order new bearings, I'd recommend getting tri-metal ones. They conform better if you don't have the crank turned. From the research I've done, aluminum bearings are a harder material. So, the slight, slight imperfections on the journals get worn off instead of the bearing material, and you'd rather have the bearings conform than the crank. AFAIK, Clevite77's are the only tri-metal bearings available in the U.S anymore.
Anyway, just throwing out more thoughts and options...hehe. Do whatever you're most comfortable with.
I have no clue what you mean by oil clearances...can you specify that?...lol
I only have that one bearing...would you like a couple pics of that one? lol
Jun 9, 2008 | 04:31 PM
#383
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From: NW Ark on wooded ten acres...Ozarks at large!
I believe what Kirk is saying is for compression rings.....120*>180*.
You have a 360* cylinder bore and four end gaps. Divide the numbers and figure the end gap placement. If the two top ring end gaps are 180* apart, then the two bottom oil ring gaps would fall in between....also 180* apart from each other. I staggered mine....90*, and 90*, and 90*, and 90*....from the bottom oil ring to the top compression ring. None more than or less than 90* apart.
Kirk is saying, apparently, that to have them 180* apart....illustrated in my first description...is not good. So, you'd just have to do the math and decide where the end gaps will fall....if you wanted to do the 120* split. Obviously the oil ring gaps will be closer. I just followed the FSM. Simple enough and so far I have a good break in.
Anyway, I was asking for pics of all the bearings... once you have them all out, I guess. But, since you only have one out, that's a good start!
The oil clearances = tolerances between the bearing inserts and crank journals......what you will find when you use the plastigage.
You have a 360* cylinder bore and four end gaps. Divide the numbers and figure the end gap placement. If the two top ring end gaps are 180* apart, then the two bottom oil ring gaps would fall in between....also 180* apart from each other. I staggered mine....90*, and 90*, and 90*, and 90*....from the bottom oil ring to the top compression ring. None more than or less than 90* apart.
Kirk is saying, apparently, that to have them 180* apart....illustrated in my first description...is not good. So, you'd just have to do the math and decide where the end gaps will fall....if you wanted to do the 120* split. Obviously the oil ring gaps will be closer. I just followed the FSM. Simple enough and so far I have a good break in.
Anyway, I was asking for pics of all the bearings... once you have them all out, I guess. But, since you only have one out, that's a good start!
The oil clearances = tolerances between the bearing inserts and crank journals......what you will find when you use the plastigage.
Last edited by thook; Jun 9, 2008 at 04:49 PM.
Jun 9, 2008 | 05:06 PM
#384
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From: Temecula Valley, CA
oil clearance is the basically the plastigauge reading- how loose the bearings are around the crank journals.
but don't puss out and only gauge that one bearing... do all the connecting rods since you have to pull the pistons and re-ring them too!
as for ring timing, personally, I'd lean for at least 120.
but don't puss out and only gauge that one bearing... do all the connecting rods since you have to pull the pistons and re-ring them too!
as for ring timing, personally, I'd lean for at least 120.
Last edited by abecedarian; Jun 9, 2008 at 05:09 PM.
Jun 9, 2008 | 05:51 PM
#385
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From: Salem, OR
LOL...Here are 5 O.K...pics.
If I remove ALL the pistons shouldn't I remember which one is which? Or does it even matter? <- I'm sure it does though.
Forget the specs...I dropped it on the ground...lol. Its got dirt all over it...I guess I need to clean it
If I remove ALL the pistons shouldn't I remember which one is which? Or does it even matter? <- I'm sure it does though.
Forget the specs...I dropped it on the ground...lol. Its got dirt all over it...I guess I need to clean it
Last edited by 91Toyota; Jun 9, 2008 at 05:53 PM.
Jun 9, 2008 | 07:14 PM
#386
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From: Temecula Valley, CA
if you're smart enough to wonder if you should wonder about remembering which piston came from which hole, you're smart enough to know that if you have a doubt about what to do, make sure you can undo it should you decide to do it. so that means remember which one came from which hole and which bearing came from which rod... so that you can put it back together exactly as you found it.
Jun 9, 2008 | 07:15 PM
#387
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From: Temecula Valley, CA
and I'm seeing some scoring on the bearings that's raising flags....
did you bite a set of timing chain guides when you did the last repair on the engine?
did you bite a set of timing chain guides when you did the last repair on the engine?
Last edited by abecedarian; Jun 9, 2008 at 07:17 PM.
Jun 9, 2008 | 07:37 PM
#388
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From: Salem, OR
But I got the pieces out. It didn't drop in the oil pan...although I did find a piece of metal in the pan and I found little plastic pieces. I'm not sure what I did with the metal piece though...lol
Jun 9, 2008 | 07:38 PM
#389
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From: Salem, OR
if you're smart enough to wonder if you should wonder about remembering which piston came from which hole, you're smart enough to know that if you have a doubt about what to do, make sure you can undo it should you decide to do it. so that means remember which one came from which hole and which bearing came from which rod... so that you can put it back together exactly as you found it.
I think I might just take a sharpie and number the pistons...or do them ONE at a time...lol
Jun 9, 2008 | 07:47 PM
#390
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From: Temecula Valley, CA
lol...
and I could take your girlfriends, number them one at time as you do them... and then turn out the lights and put them back in the room with you... can you tell them apart if they don't say anything?
and I could take your girlfriends, number them one at time as you do them... and then turn out the lights and put them back in the room with you... can you tell them apart if they don't say anything?
Jun 9, 2008 | 07:49 PM
#391
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From: Temecula Valley, CA
the crank journals don't look too bad, but gouges and scoring of the bearings means that something hard went through the oil system.
Last edited by abecedarian; Jun 9, 2008 at 07:51 PM.
Jun 9, 2008 | 07:52 PM
#392
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From: Salem, OR
Thanks!
Jun 9, 2008 | 07:52 PM
#393
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From: Salem, OR
Jun 9, 2008 | 07:52 PM
#394
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From: NW Ark on wooded ten acres...Ozarks at large!
Definitely.....get new bearings. Those have already worn into the copper past the lead babbit surface. Plus, there is some decent scoring. Still, the wear isn't "terrible", but worn just the same.
Note: those are tri-metal/lead babbit bearings. The lead babbit loads up protecting the crankshaft (to a degree) from particulates....like a busted timing chain. Aluminum ones aren't as forgiving that way. They're designed to flush particles away....if they can get away...from the crank.
Note: those are tri-metal/lead babbit bearings. The lead babbit loads up protecting the crankshaft (to a degree) from particulates....like a busted timing chain. Aluminum ones aren't as forgiving that way. They're designed to flush particles away....if they can get away...from the crank.
Jun 9, 2008 | 07:54 PM
#395
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From: NW Ark on wooded ten acres...Ozarks at large!
Ah, yeh killin' me, laddy!
Jun 9, 2008 | 07:54 PM
#396
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From: Salem, OR
Definitely.....get new bearings. Those have already worn into the copper past the lead babbit surface. Plus, there is some decent scoring. Still, the wear isn't "terrible", but worn just the same.
Note: those are tri-metal/lead babbit bearings. The lead babbit loads up protecting the crankshaft (to a degree) from particulates....like a busted timing chain. Aluminum ones aren't as forgiving that way. They're designed to flush particles away....if they can get away...from the crank.
Note: those are tri-metal/lead babbit bearings. The lead babbit loads up protecting the crankshaft (to a degree) from particulates....like a busted timing chain. Aluminum ones aren't as forgiving that way. They're designed to flush particles away....if they can get away...from the crank.
Thanks again!
Jun 9, 2008 | 07:56 PM
#397
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From: Salem, OR
Yeah, I couldn't tell them apart.
Shall I just remove all the pistons tomorrow then? I've got a picture of how they go in...so no problem there...lol
Jun 9, 2008 | 08:00 PM
#398
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From: Temecula Valley, CA
Jun 9, 2008 | 08:10 PM
#399
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From: Temecula Valley, CA
if you mess that up, you might as well take your engine down and have someone else rebuild it.
Last edited by abecedarian; Jun 9, 2008 at 08:11 PM.
Jun 9, 2008 | 08:30 PM
#400
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From: Salem, OR
I'll figure it out pretty easy though. First I'll use the scoring marks on the bearings to align it up with the connecting rod, then I'll have to figure out which way that d@mn thing went on...oops
