Engine build on a '89 Pickup
09-06-2017, 06:14 PM
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Engine build on a '89 Pickup
After reading a grotesque amount of information and trying to make sense of all of it, I figured as well as doing my homework I'd make a personal thread.
So I found a guy on Craigslist letting go of a 22R/E block/head (Late model) for nothing. He essentially fried it, saying the cold start injector leaked into holes 1/4 and stripped the oil off of them, killing the engine, and he didn't own a 22RE powered car anymore.
Now while I'd be hard pressed to call the man a liar, but I don't think that's whats happened at all, the block is in great shape, so is the crank/rods, and pistons. (The pistons have superficial damage, nothing on the crown)
To me it looks like somebody dropped something into one of the intake runners and the engine ate it to pieces.
It however does need a cylinder head as it was Shot-peened by metal fragments, needs rod bearings and possibly crank bearings, the block may be runnable but may need a hone at the very least. The pistons are scratched but very minutely, with no damage to the crown.
So now I come to you guys. I've only owned the truck for 6 months, baught it with 350k on the ODO. The engine is the ONLY part of the truck that hasn't been rebuilt, so I was told ,though mine has had a timing hardware refresh and isn't leaking/ having any real trouble at all. It really runs great for how high mileage it is.
I just jumped on the opportunity to have a motor I could build up, with no initial cost over the next year or so, whenever I have spare cash to burn so that on a lazy weekend when the current motor gets tired, I can swap them.
I spend most time on the highway with this truck, in 4th turning about 3.5-5k, I also tow a couple of dirt-bikes+ a trailer, tools, sometimes stalled cars very briefly for my job, and I wheel at a local SVRA every chance I can.
Its also lifted about 3in, mud-tires+rear locker.
Now I know the 22R/22RE was never a tow monster or powerhouse, but I know they're reliable, niche and fun. So I came to the place that knows them best.
In what direction should I build this motor? I've toyed with the idea of high-comp pistions, but who makes those?, will they ping like crazy on pump gas? what about E85?/ complete new head with SS and OS valves from Engine-buldr and a cam, but what cam? and is that a sensible build?
I'd prefer to stay N/A instead of a supercharged build, just for simplicity sake, even if it means I won't be making as much power as the guy with a FI 22RE.
So if you guys were in my shoes, AKA 1 spare truck motor, that you have infinite time/money to build, that's going into a workhorse/wheeling rig, what would you do? How would you build it?
Thanks again for listening to my rambling.
HERES THE ENGINE/TRUCK
So I found a guy on Craigslist letting go of a 22R/E block/head (Late model) for nothing. He essentially fried it, saying the cold start injector leaked into holes 1/4 and stripped the oil off of them, killing the engine, and he didn't own a 22RE powered car anymore.
Now while I'd be hard pressed to call the man a liar, but I don't think that's whats happened at all, the block is in great shape, so is the crank/rods, and pistons. (The pistons have superficial damage, nothing on the crown)
To me it looks like somebody dropped something into one of the intake runners and the engine ate it to pieces.
It however does need a cylinder head as it was Shot-peened by metal fragments, needs rod bearings and possibly crank bearings, the block may be runnable but may need a hone at the very least. The pistons are scratched but very minutely, with no damage to the crown.
So now I come to you guys. I've only owned the truck for 6 months, baught it with 350k on the ODO. The engine is the ONLY part of the truck that hasn't been rebuilt, so I was told ,though mine has had a timing hardware refresh and isn't leaking/ having any real trouble at all. It really runs great for how high mileage it is.
I just jumped on the opportunity to have a motor I could build up, with no initial cost over the next year or so, whenever I have spare cash to burn so that on a lazy weekend when the current motor gets tired, I can swap them.
I spend most time on the highway with this truck, in 4th turning about 3.5-5k, I also tow a couple of dirt-bikes+ a trailer, tools, sometimes stalled cars very briefly for my job, and I wheel at a local SVRA every chance I can.
Its also lifted about 3in, mud-tires+rear locker.
Now I know the 22R/22RE was never a tow monster or powerhouse, but I know they're reliable, niche and fun. So I came to the place that knows them best.
In what direction should I build this motor? I've toyed with the idea of high-comp pistions, but who makes those?, will they ping like crazy on pump gas? what about E85?/ complete new head with SS and OS valves from Engine-buldr and a cam, but what cam? and is that a sensible build?
I'd prefer to stay N/A instead of a supercharged build, just for simplicity sake, even if it means I won't be making as much power as the guy with a FI 22RE.
So if you guys were in my shoes, AKA 1 spare truck motor, that you have infinite time/money to build, that's going into a workhorse/wheeling rig, what would you do? How would you build it?
Thanks again for listening to my rambling.
HERES THE ENGINE/TRUCK
09-06-2017, 08:16 PM
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I'm not sure what you mean? you mean will I be doing a lot of towing/ carrying equipment/ wheeling?
Like I said, I daily it, so I spend a good chunk of time on the highway, and I use it for light towing.
It's also what I take on trails when I go out riding.
09-06-2017, 10:20 PM
#4
It is so very expensive to build horsepower in a 22RE so big bucks for very little gain .
For what you get into the 22r series engine a 3.4 swap is in the same ball park for much better horse power pure stock .
Just putting that out there .
It all comes down to your choice
Depending on the miles on your block if it is under 100,000 you might get away just honing but doubtful without measuring they all tend to go Egg shaped and need bored to be put back in round condition .High Compression do you really want to be using premium gas all the time even so a few do tend to ping even with that.
If your going to do this may as well do things correct the first time .
I am sure you know these 22r series engines build power in the head that is where the bulk of your budget will go. As for Cam figure out where you want your Power curve and go from there .
Highway rpm compared to Double cases crawling is a little different
It depends what your machine shop costs are
For what you get into the 22r series engine a 3.4 swap is in the same ball park for much better horse power pure stock .
Just putting that out there .
It all comes down to your choice
Depending on the miles on your block if it is under 100,000 you might get away just honing but doubtful without measuring they all tend to go Egg shaped and need bored to be put back in round condition .High Compression do you really want to be using premium gas all the time even so a few do tend to ping even with that.
If your going to do this may as well do things correct the first time .
I am sure you know these 22r series engines build power in the head that is where the bulk of your budget will go. As for Cam figure out where you want your Power curve and go from there .
Highway rpm compared to Double cases crawling is a little different
It depends what your machine shop costs are
09-07-2017, 05:54 AM
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It is so very expensive to build horsepower in a 22RE so big bucks for very little gain .
For what you get into the 22r series engine a 3.4 swap is in the same ball park for much better horse power pure stock .
Just putting that out there .
It all comes down to your choice
Depending on the miles on your block if it is under 100,000 you might get away just honing but doubtful without measuring they all tend to go Egg shaped and need bored to be put back in round condition .High Compression do you really want to be using premium gas all the time even so a few do tend to ping even with that.
If your going to do this may as well do things correct the first time .
I am sure you know these 22r series engines build power in the head that is where the bulk of your budget will go. As for Cam figure out where you want your Power curve and go from there .
Highway rpm compared to Double cases crawling is a little different
It depends what your machine shop costs are
For what you get into the 22r series engine a 3.4 swap is in the same ball park for much better horse power pure stock .
Just putting that out there .
It all comes down to your choice
Depending on the miles on your block if it is under 100,000 you might get away just honing but doubtful without measuring they all tend to go Egg shaped and need bored to be put back in round condition .High Compression do you really want to be using premium gas all the time even so a few do tend to ping even with that.
If your going to do this may as well do things correct the first time .
I am sure you know these 22r series engines build power in the head that is where the bulk of your budget will go. As for Cam figure out where you want your Power curve and go from there .
Highway rpm compared to Double cases crawling is a little different
It depends what your machine shop costs are
I read up about the 3.4 swap and the thing that kills me is that not only do I need to adapt harness wiring, I also have to change trannys, mounts, the entire front suspension to accommodate the added weight. It seemed a lot more money and way more intensive that building the 22R/E
I planned on sending the engine out for polishing the crank, boil the motor and clean it, deck it, and probably over-boring it by .40, and having them assemble the bottom end while they're there, so it's warrantied, and they can cut all the bottom rotating assembly to match each-other.
But I wanted to have my pistons with the block when I give it to a machine shop, and have a general idea of what direction I'd be going in.
I really don't care that I'd have to use premium gas constantly, I already do on a couple of other trucks, and I did in this truck when I was towing in hot weather to try and help it from pinging. E85 would be slightly more cumbersome as I couldn't get it everywhere and would have to load out before I go somewhere, but again, if i'm building this motor for high-comp (which is where i'm leaning) sacrifices must be made.
So for a high-comp build: what head? OS valves and ported? Stainless? What pistons? Do I need forged internals? Can I get away with premium pump gas or will I need E85? ECT.
As for cam and power, I'd like mid-range stuff. Something that's coming online 2.3-3k and stays until 4.5-5k. That's most of what I'd be turning when towing or on the highway anyway.
I'm happy with how it wheels right now, so I'd lean to highway>dirt, as it already does so well with the Gearing/locker that's in it right now. Especially when i can pop into 4-low to overcome lack of torque on a trail but I can't drop another gear sometimes on the highway,
EDIT: I've also heard positive feedback about going and getting the Fuel injectors balanced and cleaned while they're out, from a company like Fuel-Injector-Connection or rceng. Who do you recommend?
Another thing to add is that this is a late model 22R block, that I'll be bolting all my RE stuff onto (AKA Fuel injection) from what I've read that shouldn't affect much but in-case it does I wanted to mention it.
Last edited by SlaveCylinder; 09-07-2017 at 06:59 AM. Reason: ADDING
09-07-2017, 07:05 AM
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Wow!
This doesn't advance your inquiry, but I can't help but notice that PART of the top of the piston and PART of the head look like they've been hammered on. What could come loose inside a cylinder that would do that much damage in the quench-space, but not even knock the carbon off the valves? If I had to guess (which is all I can do), I might think that a large piece got into the cylinder, but the engine never RAN after that. Instead, it was cranked a few times (very low RPMs) and that vise-gripped the intruding piece between the piston and the head. But it never ran fast enough to actually knock the piece around.
Good luck!
This doesn't advance your inquiry, but I can't help but notice that PART of the top of the piston and PART of the head look like they've been hammered on. What could come loose inside a cylinder that would do that much damage in the quench-space, but not even knock the carbon off the valves? If I had to guess (which is all I can do), I might think that a large piece got into the cylinder, but the engine never RAN after that. Instead, it was cranked a few times (very low RPMs) and that vise-gripped the intruding piece between the piston and the head. But it never ran fast enough to actually knock the piece around.
Good luck!
09-07-2017, 07:19 AM
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09-07-2017, 01:02 PM
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Wow!
This doesn't advance your inquiry, but I can't help but notice that PART of the top of the piston and PART of the head look like they've been hammered on. What could come loose inside a cylinder that would do that much damage in the quench-space, but not even knock the carbon off the valves? If I had to guess (which is all I can do), I might think that a large piece got into the cylinder, but the engine never RAN after that. Instead, it was cranked a few times (very low RPMs) and that vise-gripped the intruding piece between the piston and the head. But it never ran fast enough to actually knock the piece around.
Good luck!
This doesn't advance your inquiry, but I can't help but notice that PART of the top of the piston and PART of the head look like they've been hammered on. What could come loose inside a cylinder that would do that much damage in the quench-space, but not even knock the carbon off the valves? If I had to guess (which is all I can do), I might think that a large piece got into the cylinder, but the engine never RAN after that. Instead, it was cranked a few times (very low RPMs) and that vise-gripped the intruding piece between the piston and the head. But it never ran fast enough to actually knock the piece around.
Good luck!
Also on cylinder 4 it did knock off some carbon, and there are actually marks on the valves themselves.
Weird that it'd be both 1-4, which is why I guess he determined a leaking cold-start injector.
Last edited by SlaveCylinder; 09-07-2017 at 01:04 PM.
09-07-2017, 02:06 PM
#10
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If you want, or need a substantially more powerful truck, buy one with a bigger engine.
If you can live with the 22RE, build it back mostly stock with all genuine Japanese components.
You can, and should, select a camshaft that gives the most torque in the powerband area you most need.
As wyoming peviously noted, there's little performance return for investment building 22REs
If you can live with the 22RE, build it back mostly stock with all genuine Japanese components.
You can, and should, select a camshaft that gives the most torque in the powerband area you most need.
As wyoming peviously noted, there's little performance return for investment building 22REs
09-07-2017, 04:14 PM
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If you want, or need a substantially more powerful truck, buy one with a bigger engine.
If you can live with the 22RE, build it back mostly stock with all genuine Japanese components.
You can, and should, select a camshaft that gives the most torque in the powerband area you most need.
As wyoming peviously noted, there's little performance return for investment building 22REs
If you can live with the 22RE, build it back mostly stock with all genuine Japanese components.
You can, and should, select a camshaft that gives the most torque in the powerband area you most need.
As wyoming peviously noted, there's little performance return for investment building 22REs
You see no value in toying with the 22RE at all?
Is it really that hard to squeeze some power out of a 22re? Even high compression pistons, ported head, os valves and a cam? You think that it really wouldn't pick up any power?
09-07-2017, 04:42 PM
#12
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It might be substantially more near redline, but racing is not the stated purpose of your machine.
The 22RE is a beautiful 110 horse wonder with near perpetual life. It's hard to make it anything else.
Last edited by millball; 09-07-2017 at 04:44 PM.
09-07-2017, 07:05 PM
#13
#1 lost the upper ring, that cylinder is very gnarly.
You are going to need to measure it up and see if you can get it bored and trued up and stay with in the available part sizes.
Once you start boreing out the cylinders you will lose compression ratio. So if you want more power your only real option then is a stroker kit..
You are going to need to measure it up and see if you can get it bored and trued up and stay with in the available part sizes.
Once you start boreing out the cylinders you will lose compression ratio. So if you want more power your only real option then is a stroker kit..
09-07-2017, 07:21 PM
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I'd be surprised if you'd pick up more than 15 or 20 HP with all those mods at the moderate revs that you'd expect a road machine to run at.
It might be substantially more near redline, but racing is not the stated purpose of your machine.
The 22RE is a beautiful 110 horse wonder with near perpetual life. It's hard to make it anything else.
It might be substantially more near redline, but racing is not the stated purpose of your machine.
The 22RE is a beautiful 110 horse wonder with near perpetual life. It's hard to make it anything else.
Thats a fair point, but just how high would you have to rev to make utilization of those modifications? past 5.5? Past what is really usable on the street?
09-07-2017, 07:23 PM
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#1 lost the upper ring, that cylinder is very gnarly.
You are going to need to measure it up and see if you can get it bored and trued up and stay with in the available part sizes.
Once you start boreing out the cylinders you will lose compression ratio. So if you want more power your only real option then is a stroker kit..
You are going to need to measure it up and see if you can get it bored and trued up and stay with in the available part sizes.
Once you start boreing out the cylinders you will lose compression ratio. So if you want more power your only real option then is a stroker kit..
Who makes good stroker kits? and what other supporting mods do I have to do besides rods and pistons? What kind of power increase could I feasibly get? Where would most of the power lie in a stroked 22re? Lower RPM like most other stroked engines? what kind of displacement would I gain, whats the max I could go for?
09-07-2017, 07:42 PM
#16
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Another thing to consider is that the factory ECU in these old trucks is primitive.
It will probably not permit the most to be got out of a heavily modded engine.
You may well have to look at aftermarket stand-alone ECUs, Mega-Squirt, or similar.
It will probably not permit the most to be got out of a heavily modded engine.
You may well have to look at aftermarket stand-alone ECUs, Mega-Squirt, or similar.
09-07-2017, 11:37 PM
#17
Like I said very expensive for each horsepower gained.
You think the 3.4 wiring is beyond you wait to you start on the aftermarket ECU wiring for the most it makes the 3.4 swap wiring look simple.
Just how much over $5000.00 is the budget for the engine build
Best of luck!!
You think the 3.4 wiring is beyond you wait to you start on the aftermarket ECU wiring for the most it makes the 3.4 swap wiring look simple.
Just how much over $5000.00 is the budget for the engine build
Best of luck!!
09-08-2017, 04:10 AM
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If you want, or need a substantially more powerful truck, buy one with a bigger engine.
If you can live with the 22RE, build it back mostly stock with all genuine Japanese components.
You can, and should, select a camshaft that gives the most torque in the powerband area you most need.
As wyoming peviously noted, there's little performance return for investment building 22REs
If you can live with the 22RE, build it back mostly stock with all genuine Japanese components.
You can, and should, select a camshaft that gives the most torque in the powerband area you most need.
As wyoming peviously noted, there's little performance return for investment building 22REs
09-08-2017, 06:24 AM
#19
I'm about $2k into my 22R-E to 5VZ-FE swap, and I fully believe this was the best route. Even though I miss the 22R-E, I just remember the highway on-ramps and towing my trailer.
As for wiring, it was fairly easy. I just matched wiring diagrams, and came up with a simple wiring harness to go between the body and engine. And if you only want the engine to run (no dash), it's a lot easier. If you need help with this, let me know. I have wiring diagrams from 93 22R-E and 96-97 5VZ-FE.
But if you're heart is set on the dear old four-banger, go for it. Like everyone has said, this engine is not meant for power. It'll last forever, but at 110 HP forever.
Now if you REALLY want a "fun" project: go high compression with propane. Not propane injection, but actually running the truck on propane. I looked into this, and found it to be very doable. Propane likes higher compression, as it is about 100+ octane equivalent.
As for wiring, it was fairly easy. I just matched wiring diagrams, and came up with a simple wiring harness to go between the body and engine. And if you only want the engine to run (no dash), it's a lot easier. If you need help with this, let me know. I have wiring diagrams from 93 22R-E and 96-97 5VZ-FE.
But if you're heart is set on the dear old four-banger, go for it. Like everyone has said, this engine is not meant for power. It'll last forever, but at 110 HP forever.
Now if you REALLY want a "fun" project: go high compression with propane. Not propane injection, but actually running the truck on propane. I looked into this, and found it to be very doable. Propane likes higher compression, as it is about 100+ octane equivalent.
09-08-2017, 06:52 AM
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Yeah, I've dealt with stand alone ECU's before, more specifically Megasquirt's PNP systems.
That really a route I'd not want to go if I can avoid, I was looking for some hard components to throw into the engine and hopefully change the characteristics of it, but so far it looks like that's less feasible.
