Audrienne

88 22r 4x4 Standard Truck roughly 260K miles (no Escalade here, Rad)

I will try to be as clear as possible, but please bear with me, hubby and I hate vehicle electrical problems. Note: Have had occasional water in passenger side floor since purchasing from PO (Sept 2016)

1. Aug 2017 - brake and charge light randomly (and very briefly) flashing, but test at store showed alt/bat fine (could not replicate flashing of lights during test). A few days later, alternator started smoking (yep, billowing out of hood). Removed (looked like original? was very old) in Advance parking lot and threw on "new" reman. Suspected volt reg on alt failed. No other electrical issues up until...

2. March 8 2018 - drove to Mom-in-law's, no problems (parked truck on a "decline" facing nose down maybe a 10-15 degree angle). Spent day running around with her. Came bk, started truck. Yep, started right up, but battery and charge light were on (and stayed on). Drove all the way home like that (45 min drive). Discovered in the failing light of dusk that my wire connector at E-brake was disconnected - reconnected, lights stayed on. Pushed button (that E-brake depresses when not in use), lights stayed on. Checked battery V not running (12.6V) Checked battery V running (12.3V) Hubby said alternator - I said, nawwww, can't be, gotta b something weird, maybe cuz of the water in the cab.

3. Spent March 9th scratching my head, pulling carpet on both sides of truck (thinking water got somewhere electrical) and discovered small amt of water on driver side in addition to known passenger side. Started caulking grommets, reinstalling and caulking loose ones, Caulking weld lines inside cab, etc. Jumped on forum - most info pointed to alternator, "Charge" fuse, battery, etc. Started checking fuses and not a single one blown (under hood and driver kick panel), and randomly testing stuff (I know, I know..."what stuff did u test?" well, it was a week ago, and I am so overwhelmed with information overload that I frankly can't remember it all). I DID pull the "charge fuse" at the hood fuse box and the lights on dash REMAINED ON, making me think issue is from that box TOWARDS cab...not back towards alternator - am I wrong? Replaced "charge" fuse with new 7.5 amp, even tho no sign of having blown or damage or corrosion/wear.

4. March 10 - Hubby convinced me to help him jerk off alternator, so we yanked it off, ran it to the store, yep, BAD alt. Checked battery - battery was perfect. Had receipt, got a replacement alt, threw it bk on, LIGHTS STILL ON! New symptom cropped up, but not sure exactly when as hubby was checking one thing, I was checking another...at some point, hubby disconnected battery with truck running. (yep, I know a few of you are shaking your heads right now, thinking "uhoh, Emission Control Computer just fried, along with who knows what else") Yeah, that mighta happened....but I did happen to notice that around that same time, the battery light, blinkers, temp gauge and fuel gauge no longer worked. UGH! So, bk to the forum. "Engine" fuse on driver fuse box! Eureka! Checked it - NOT blown. Crap - no "Eureka." Replaced it anyway....no change. Checked ALL fuses again - not a single one blown. Yanked off passenger fender to have a look at wiring running into cab as well as side where cowl drains - all looked good, no rust, no wear on wire wrapping.

5. March 11 - Replaced almost all ground cables (not replaced - ground at driver kick panel fuse box cuz it looked fine and no where near leak issue). Replaced cable from hood fuse box to battery (PO had original big white wire run to smaller gauge wire to battery). More hours in the forum...checked the back up lights wiring at tranny - no sign of wear that others have mentioned that tends to blow the Engine fuse (keeping in mind that my fuse is NOT blown). Just trying to eliminate potential problems as I go along. Hubby removed 80amp fusible link in hood box (wow, what a pain) - wires looked good, link solid, bolted bk up and put bk in. 40amp and 30amp fusible links looked great too. Hubby and I yanked off the alt (yep, the new one) and had it tested - alt is still good. Still pulling 12.3V at battery with truck running. Still charge light on, no blinkers, no temp gauge, no fuel gauge. Charge fuse still does not turn off light when pulled.

6. March 12 - I start randomly unplugging and plugging stuff back in (looking at connections). I removed (from wall) driver kick panel fuse box to look at back - Blk/yel wire (yep, the one that comes from hood fuse box, into passenger wall, up above dash and bk down to driver panel) shows some white buildup, but fuse makes good connection. When looking at back of fuse box, there is a jumper that jumps from the "wiper" fuse down to the fuse below it (the dreaded "Engine" fuse). Here's the interesting part - my wipers work! So, my thinking is, the Blk/yel wire coming from the hood fuse box runs to the wipers as well as the "Engine" fuse can't have a problem, if the wipers work! More time in forum...including our other yota friendly forums. Getting desperate at this point and I started googling stuff too.

7. March 13 - Getting industrious, but still directionless. Operating with the idea that my problem is water related, I yank the cowl, pull the screens, clean the debris and try to look/feel for rust. I yanked off side and bottom windshield chrome to check seal (just in case water is coming in bottom of WS and draining down onto some unforeseen electrical - no signs of rust, actually looks awesome!. Felt around toward driver side and passenger side inside cowl for rust hole - nothing (yep, small hands, small wrists). Decided to yank driver side fender, no sign of rust on fender side of cowl either (sigh). More forum time....and discovered a factory splice on driver's side wire bundle behind fender that sometimes corrodes and causes issues (one large white wire spliced to three large white wires right b4 grommet into cab)...opened that up - copper looked almost new and was still solid. (sigh) Taped that puppy back up better than Yota had it. Noticed that connector (not the one coming from the alt, but the one right b4 wires split and head into fender toward cab as well as around radiator and to hood fuse box by battery) on driver's side had a "pooked" out bottom and a seemingly discolored "male" end. Told hubby bout it and he said if he had time tomorrow, we'd just hardwire it (was easily determined that it was simply a disconnect for convenience of replacing harness sections).

8. March 14 - hubby got home b4 sun went down, so we hardwired (shrink wrap, heat gun, and LOTSA electrical tape) above mentioned connector (4 wires, easy peasy). Then I disassembled the connector and noticed a lot of black buildup on male and female side of yellow wire connection within the connector. Got excited (arching maybe fried it and we found our problem?) Nope. Put all electrical back together, started truck, charge light still on, gauges still don't work. Hubby got a wild hair (still some light left b4 sun drops below mtns) and opened the stupid box that the main wire from alt comes to (in a little black box, has a bolt going thru it and the rest of the same gauge wire heading around radiator towards hood fuse box/battery area). Connection looked good, hubby unscrewed nut, checked ends, screwed it bk on, and then checked V with truck running, showed 12.3V. (sigh) This kinda leads into our frustration with DC vs AC current and our lack of understanding. Logic would say that if the alt was working correctly, you would get 13.5V +/- at that wire, cuz that is what alt should be putting out straight down that wire, right?? We were thinking we could just replace that wire and solve our problem. But had a guy tell us "nope." I didn't understand his logic, but it seems that if you are getting 13.5 from alt, but "somewhere" in your truck you have a mysterious, non-fuse-blowing draw, you will only show what ur battery is getting (12.3V), even tho you are not testing at the battery, you are testing at the wire that comes directly off the alternator. I feel like I am losing my mind.

9. March 15 - A pretty day in East TN - you'd think I could take advantage and maybe make some progress? Nope. Spent hours and hours pouring thru forums in search of a variety of solutions. First - my truck doesn't have any of the connections or magically little boxes to pull codes (yep, got a wild hair n decided to see if my truck could tell me what is wrong, whodathunk?). I checked multiple sites looking for something that looked like what I have (or rather "don't have") under the hood - to no avail. It seems I don't have ANY of the various types of connections/boxes that you would put a paperclip into. Second, I was looking for some magical way to bypass my ECC (Emission Control Computer Yota part No 89550-35240) as my truck is desmogged. No solution there - seems my ECC has a fuel cut off solenoid wire running into it, and most of the info I saw regarding the possibility of circumventing the ECC too vague (not directly pertaining to my ECC or my 88 22r) so I was hesitant to start cutting wires and just guessing at it...considering that part is almost $300 new (from yota). Keep in mind, truck still runs, and runs like a top! So, after much running around the internet, I found out how to do a "Parasitic Draw Test" via youtube. Is this gonna help track down the problem? Only if I have a draw on my battery with everything off...and only if pulling fuses eliminates that draw...then I have to figure out why there is a draw there and where the problem actually is.

Additional info -
Yes, I have a FSM

Yes, I have elec schematics/diagrams, and printed from FSM, taped together in long pieces and highlighted to track various suspected culprits.

Yes, we have a multi meter, but since DC confuses the heck out of both hubby and I, we're just kinda winging it and hoping the forums explain what we're reading (hence, all the time searching info such as 50 mamp vs setting on 20V and reading 12.3V instead of 14.4V at battery...yes, we even studied multi meter book and poured over youtube "how-to" videos to understand continuity vs actual readings at various settings, etc) In other words, we're learning, please don't be too critical when u offer advice.

Here's my questions:

What else should/could I be doing to track this down?

(Quick nod to y'all...I can't tell you how many problems I have solved thru just searching posts over the past year and a half! Hubby and I replaced timing chain and clutch last summer and this site was VITAL to determining that was the problem, as well as rebuilding my carb, desmogging and other adventures into my yota!)

Thanks for your patience while reading thru the book I wrote above, but the more information y'all have about what we have already done, the better chance someone has of offering a solution!

RAD4Runner

Awesome! Those are too ritzy for our taste here

Sorry, busy today but a few ideas...
If "Charge light" stays on even with "Charge" fuse removed, you have a short to ground somewhere.

Not likely the alternator. Most likely connections.

PLS NOTE: Toyota is not known for clearly naming parts. "Charge" fuse does not cause or make charging possible, it indicates a "FAULT" in charging system.
What makes charging possible is the "Engine" fuse. "Engine" fuse also makes back-up light and turn signals possible. Sorry, I did not engineer it - LOL!
Voltage output of good system ranges from 13.5 to 15.1 V, depending on temperature and condition of battery. If you're not getting that, chances alternator is not getting 12V "excitation" voltage at IG.

Please see this for suggested test points:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f199...l#post52094780

Find a way to probe back of connector while everything is connected.

Audrienne

please ignore my note "box under hood?" as that was my attempt (days ago) at locating the "IG1" that I have read about in various posts (including yours, Rad)

Is the orange highlighted line coming out of the "Ignition S/W" the "IG" to which you are referring? If so, where is that? I am assuming Ignition S/W is my ignition switch? I have no idea where it is located, other than it has that dreaded blk/yellow wire coming out of it (same as to my "Engine" fuse and the 7.5 "IGN" fuse as well as my ECC.

Once I figure out what the IG is, where it is, and how to test it, for what am I looking? A constant 12v or is that a line that should show the 13.5+V that the alt should b feeding to the battery?

My alt config is a little different from yours in the link, so I grabbed a shot of mine as well...

the notes I made on it were from a couple days ago while I was perusing one of your links (the one with all the amazing whale pics, hiking picks, whistling rocks pics, and u relaxing thru ur lack of windshield)

The yellow wire going to the ECC is the same on my diagram (except my ECC is federal and I assume urs is Cali).

So, I understand your link/page, and I see how it corresponds to my page(s). I just don't know what actual wires/junctions under the hood to test. ugh.

When u say "Find a way to probe back of connector while everything is connected." to what connector are you referring?

I do appreciate you replying to my post (aka my "Desperate cry for HELP"), I know you are a busy guy! Thank you so much for your time, and hopefully what I have written here won't be terribly nonsensical and you can point me in the right direction when u get a few minutes! (unless ur wandering around Crater Lake, or the Grand Canyon, or getting ur kicks on route 66...again....minus the tranny work!)

Audrienne

Here's a pic of the fuse box under the hood (just in case that is a place to start checking V with relation to the elusive IG)

ugh, looks like the pic might be huge. I know I can probably resolve that issue, but it is starting to get dark here, so probably not today. Sorry.

Co_94_PU

iTrader: (-1)

IG1, noted and highlighted on your printout, runs from the ignition switch (on the inner side of the lock cylinder)..

The plug you want to backprobe is the three prong one on the alternator. IG is shown on the diagram as #/3 (I don't recall the position sorry), you will want to verify the wire color on the diagram (pretty certain its still yellow-black). You should have battery voltage on this wire, if not your alternator isn't being energized and there is likely a break somewhere..

You have the issue with dash gauges also, and pulling the charge light fuse thing, these lead more towards a short not an open circuit. So more likely a pinched or damaged wire sheath that simply a broken wire, but those typically blow fuses..

Short of disconnecting things like the cluster, computer, and all the other bits you see in the list that wire runs to on the diagram.. Maybe start with checking voltage on both sides of that engine fuse at the exposed metal tab on its face to make sure it's not damaged.

Relatively sure that engine will run with out the ecc plugged in, but don't hold me to that.

It is a 22r, so checking for shorts (or unplugging) things like the manifold heater, electronic choke, and I think one other high amp draw there in not recalling

RAD4Runner

RAD: We like helping those who put us right in front of their engine like the way you do. The picture of the fuse block is just right. (BTW, I have a 1986, but I use the 1988 FSM pdf for visual aids because I already have it; there are a few minor differences of course).

Is the orange highlighted line coming out of the "Ignition S/W" the "IG" to which you are referring? If so, where is that? I am assuming Ignition S/W is my ignition switch?
RAD: Yes, correct; Engine fuse gets it's power from the B-Y wire you highlighted in orange. IG Switch is your ignition switch. I don't think there's a problem there. Just find your Engine fuse. I think it's the blue, 15-amp one.

To verify:
1) One side of Engine fuse will be B-Y wire, the other side will be Red.
2) Turn ignition on (engine does not need to be on), put truck in reverse. Backup light should turn on. Try turn signals; they should also come on. Now remove the Engine Fuse. Backup light should turn off, turn signals should stop working. There should be a diagram on the fuse block cover.

Once I figure out what the IG is, where it is, and how to test it, for what am I looking? A constant 12v or is that a line that should show the 13.5+V that the alt should b feeding to the battery?
...When u say "Find a way to probe back of connector while everything is connected." to what connector are you referring?
IG is the red wire that goes to connector in back of alt. Disconnect the connector in back of alt. Probe IG pin. There should always be voltage same as battery voltage when IG is on (even if engine is not on). That red wire goes back to Engine fuse, but You'll only need to find where it's spliced IF you don't have the 12V=batt voltage at IG.
You will only get 13.5-15.1V when engine is on and alt is working properly.
The Charge fuse will always have 12V when IG on and alt is working properly. It is not needed for alt to work. (When you get your alt running, you can try disconnecting it and see that alt keeps on working)

.So you remember that I had to leave my truck in Dallas for tranny rebuild - LOL! The shop did a good job, I think, and that gave me a good excuse to drive my cousin's Mini-Cooper to Houston.. Now I miss that 6th gear.

Audrienne

Hmmm...a few more things to look into tomorrow and I very much appreciate you locating the IG switch for me! Unfortunately, hubby killed the engine at one point last weekend when he unplugged the ECC, so I yanked out the handy dandy FSM again, and discovered that my ECC controls the fuel cut solenoid (from carb). "Oh Joy" So, plugged ECC bk in, started truck back up, and continued with exploration.

Probing that plug is going to be interesting...will let y'all know what we come up with! Also, will post here my resolution, if I ever figure it out! That, or my truck will become Tennessee's largest paperweight!

I will put y'all's info together and form an attack plan for tomorrow, starting with a lot of multi meter work! Thank you for replying, Co_94, it is much appreciated!

Audrienne

Oooo....and more things to look into from RAD! Thank you!!! I think I am going to copy and print y'all's responses and then marry them to my FSM elec schematic and take the whole shootingmatch out to my truck tomorrow!

Just to clarify - Engine fuse is not blown, but turn signals, temp gauge, and gas gauge don't work. Hazards do work (different relay from what I understand). I haven't checked the back up lights, but I assume they don't work either as they are tied in. According to my elec schem, the wipers tie in directly to the Blk/yel wire too (but have their own fuse)...but am pretty sure they still work - will check tomorrow. When I put my meter to each side of the Engine fuse "tabs" (with fuse removed), what volts should I be reading? 12ish?

(Hubby giggled at me cuz I am excited about getting responses - this whole thing has been SO depressing and now I feel certain I will be making some progress!!)

Oh, and RAD - you are a fantastic photographer! (just in case u haven't been told that lately!)

skypilot

iTrader: (1)

Ok; See if we can help you some. First before modern science came along electrons came from positive to negative. That was gospel and still is due to massive confusion from modern science. You see we were really wrong, electrons actually do come from negative to positive, but to avoid thousands of man-years of work. Well..... we just decided not fix anything, too much confusion.

To find a short you need a light bulb, a big one like a headlight bulb. Put it in place of the fuse on the circuit you wish to test. work until light goes out, thats your issue.

Its not hard think of it as plumbing, water comes out of the positive terminal and finds its way to the drain in the chassis. Now find the leaking pipe..............

Also maybe I'm making thing's worse too.

Audrienne

Actually, hubby and I are in remodeling (which may explain why DC is so frustrating - like teaching a pro baseball player how to golf - difficult to translate!)....so your analogy is quite appropriate! And I like your scientific reality check as well! Thanks!!

RAD4Runner

Sorry...
Just looked at my fuses; on 1986 22RE, the Engine fuse and the Wiper fuse are on the fuse block behind driver's side kick panel (below). I think the blue fuse on your fuse block is the horn/hazard fuse. Please check yours.

please double-check where your Engine fuse is.
If above except wipers work, then it's most likely because of bad engine fuse.
One likely cause of blown engine fuse is a short to ground on the backup light system. Example is this (https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f199...l#post52023759)

Yes, close to battery voltage. One side has B-Y wire, the other red wire (look behind the fuse block).


Thanks! Photos are a good way to share the views, not the suffering, with family and friends







FUSE AND RELAY LOCATIONS (1988)


ACTUAL PICTURE, KICK PANEL FUSE-RELAY BLOCK 1 (1986)


INTERMEDIATE ALTERNATOR HARNESS CONNECTOR NEAR POWER STEERING RESERVOIR


PIN-OUTS, INTERMEDIATE ALTERNATOR HARNESS CONNECTOR, Harness Side.
When unplugged
IG (RED) Always same as battery voltage when IGN Switch is ON
S (white) Always same as battery voltage when good battery connected properly
L (yel) Always 12V (close to batt voltage) when charge fuse is in and IGN SW on.

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

I wish I was close enough to help in person sometimes another set of eyes can spot a problem every one else just can`t see.

Audrienne

WOOHOO! Electrical issue resolved!!! TY all SO much for the help!

PO had made some mods, behind driver's side fuse box. We performed the checks at the connector immediately after the alt, like in RAD's pics, and had no power on a couple of the wires. So we started back tracking them...and worked our way to the fuse box. Low and behold, the red (from alt, coming thru grommet via fender) was cut....as well as the corresponding red at Engine fuse. And the white (again, from alt, coming thru grommet via fender) was cut....as well as the corresponding white at Stop fuse. Seems he was pulling power from those two wires for a mod he had done that he "undid" before selling me the truck....and things just decided to come loose on March 8 for whatever reason (but did not completely detach). Yep, I had my kick panel on the entire time, so I know I didn't graze the fuse box with my foot while shifting gears, but hubby suggested perhaps the carpet or something was pulling on those "additional" wires and finally pulled 'em loose from each other (they were crimped in those sleeve dohickies). So we just yanked everything out (mod wires and all), put it all together as best as we could...started up the truck and BAM! Done and done! 14.4V at alternator, all gauges/lights working, and one VERY happy wife!

However, we still have stuff to put bk together. (giggle) I have most of the windshield molding off, so that has to go bk on (hopefully). I wanted to look for telltale leaks at seal in my pursuit of the water in the cab. I also have to put the cowl bk on (again, pursuit of telltale leaks in windshield/welded firewall to cab). I think I may be missing some snap in screens under the cowl (I have two screens, but four decent sized holes that look like they should have screens)...but will pursue that later. I saw where RAD found a leak in the top of his windshield between two metal crimps/connections that initially seemed to be the windshield trough, but was later determined to be metal to metal/ponding of water. I'll keep an eye out for that as well!

We also repaired my horn. Pulling the steering wheel on this truck (with a wheel puller) is SO easy (compared to others we have fought with)! There has been a lot of advice in this forum for repairing the horn, including putting a gasket behind the brass ring or utilizing a .22 shell. But lemme tell y'all what we found when we opened this thing up:

1. The spring on the button was loose...why? cuz the brass "cap" on the top of the button that retains the spring/rubs on the brass ring was worn completely out! It literally came off on my fingers like a little brass ring, with the spring! So we were left with just the shaft sticking out and nothing to retain the spring, in order to keep the spring from rubbing on the brass ring.

2. Hubby got brilliant and performed some surgery! He filed the shaft down (on just one side) to get a flat edge in order to keep drill bit in place. He used a 1/16" drill bit and drilled a hole approx. 1/8" from end of shaft. He then took a .22 shell, drilled a corresponding hole through both sides of .22 (in order to line up with hole on shaft), installed spring (retaining shaft from back with his finger to keep it from moving back into the steering column), placed .22 shell over spring, worked a piece of wire thru the holes, and then bent the wire around the .22 shell (much like a cotter pin). I am sure this isn't the best solution - obviously the best would be to get a new part and install it! (lol) But as they are not usually kept on the shelf of your local auto parts store, we kinda ran with what we have! So, horn works...for now! When it no longer works, our next step will likely be a new part!

Rain is holding off in East TN at the moment, so heading back outside to finish putting things back together! Thank you all again...for the input, the pics, for allowing me to pick ur brains, and for getting me back on the road!!

RAD4Runner

Awesome! Thanks for the update. We are happy to help.