Pre 84 Trucks 1st gen pickups

Is my starter going out? Recommendations please

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Old Jan 18, 2018 | 01:05 PM
  #21  
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Those three capped vacuum ports are for the "High Altitude Compensation" system.

Toyota made a kit that dealers could install that would allow the carburetor to keep the correct Air/Fuel ratio with the less dense air found at high altitudes (and without "rejetting").

Most trucks, including mine, do not have this system installed and Toyota simply capped off those three ports.

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Old Jan 18, 2018 | 02:26 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by old87yota
Those three capped vacuum ports are for the "High Altitude Compensation" system.

Toyota made a kit that dealers could install that would allow the carburetor to keep the correct Air/Fuel ratio with the less dense air found at high altitudes (and without "rejetting").

Most trucks, including mine, do not have this system installed and Toyota simply capped off those three ports.

thank you for your help. Makes sense this truck has never been in a high alt location.

so I brought the starter in to the starter alternator shop and it was a big place with a billion starters and alternators all around, with lots of stations behind the front counter. Within 30sec of me walking in he tested it on 2 diff machines and starter actually works well and is orig. But on the back there were these small recessed things, I think capacitors he said? That were going bad. So they are going through it and replacing those and checking the brushes etc. It will be ready tomorrow. He's also cleaning up my cable for me.
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Old Jan 19, 2018 | 01:22 PM
  #23  
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Picked up starter today. They put new contacts in and the plunger. Also they did a really nice job cleaning up my cable and using some seriously thick heat shrink on the ends. I installed it and she popped right off.
he said these old starters are better than a lot of the new stuff they get in. I'm happy to keep mine going.

Last edited by 95yoda; Jan 19, 2018 at 01:24 PM.
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Old Jan 20, 2018 | 07:51 AM
  #24  
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So the screech sound happened this am 2 times then the 3rd it started normal. So guess the starter is not the issue. Ughhh.
so now I'm wondering about the flywheel? I'm including the only pic I have of the teeth I took. It's not super sharp resolution but maybe they look worn where it's more silver?

Not sure what to check. All connections very tight.
I just noticed that washer displaced in the pic. I don't believe that I installed it. Not sure it would matter? In this circumstance

Last edited by 95yoda; Jan 20, 2018 at 08:04 AM.
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Old Jan 20, 2018 | 10:05 AM
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I've been searching forums and came across a possible bad ground to cause this Also? It's a quick first thing I can try.
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Old Jan 20, 2018 | 01:45 PM
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Flywheel looks fine. Unless the teeth are actually broken off and there's nothing there for the starter to engage, it's fine. Not a bad idea to turn the engine to make sure, but I really doubt any of the teeth are broken.

So it's still a "starter issue", but yeah...could be the connections. IF the shop did a good job and the starter is fine now, then it's a power/ground issue. I'm sure they know what they're doing and replaced what needed to be replaced. I'll just say that it's no surprise it worked fine on the bench. I mean it works fine for you most times too, right?
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Old Jan 20, 2018 | 02:35 PM
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That is true. The ground looks pretty gross so I will try that.
I started it 4 times throughout this afternoon and no issues. I'm running my phones video each time in case haha. So I have four clips of no issues so far ha! That looks suspect. I will take it off and wire brush it and reattach.
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Old Jan 20, 2018 | 03:12 PM
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Starter and solenoid are grounded, primarily, from the block ground since they use the housing. On the efi version this is the lower intake "stay" (support bracket). Pretty sure it's the same on the carb versions.
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Old Jan 20, 2018 | 05:57 PM
  #29  
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Okay where abouts is it located if you know off hand.
the ground in the pic was pretty bad. Bolted to a painted surface??
Well at least this ground is clean. Anyone know where the block ground is
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Old Jan 20, 2018 | 07:13 PM
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One on the alternator harness, for sure on the 20r, if you have the other one it is on a second cable to the battery negative post and will run down to below the intake. Some have a factory ground at the rear of the head to the firewall.
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Old Jan 20, 2018 | 08:41 PM
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The only wire coming off my neg post on the battery is the one going to the fender that I cleaned up.

I've been searching online and I've seen others have the same. I've read others doing more and larger grounds and it really wakes the starter up.
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Old Jan 23, 2018 | 11:11 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by 95yoda
So the screech sound happened this am 2 times then the 3rd it started normal. So guess the starter is not the issue.
"Toyota components are bullet-proof. Issues often arise from poor wiring, assembly and/or maintenance. Suspect those first." - someone on Yotatech

Originally Posted by 95yoda
The only wire coming off my neg post on the battery is the one going to the fender that I cleaned up.
I've been searching online and I've seen others have the same. I've read others doing more and larger grounds and it really wakes the starter up.
Cranking takes a lot of current. Indirect / incidental / unintentional grounding through engine mounting, and/or through unknown paths, etc will not be enough and unsafe because the ground path may be unpredictable and could run through other critical circuits. There should be a VERY direct path between starter body and battery positive, AND a direct ground from battery negative post to engine block (That's where starter gets its ground).
Either Toyota designed it wrong OR a previous owner removed that direct connection. ("Toyota had much better mechanical engineers than electrical engineers back then (see horn circuit, see cranking system, see headlight circuit...) -someone on Yotatech.)
On first-gens there is a VERY THICK cable between battery positive negative and the right-front corner of the block...
Yes, there is very clean, bare metal under that ring terminal and screw. Any voids have silicone dielectric grease.


Good job on catching that poor ground and making it "better".
"Toyota had much better mechanical engineers than electrical engineers back then (see horn circuit, see cranking system, see headlight circuit...)" - someone on Yotatech.
However, I still see primer on contact surface. Sanding down to bare shiny metal will make it the BEST ground.
Poor Stock ground path is from ring terminal, to coated screw, to thread of coated screw, to possibly oxidized thread on body to body metal.
Best ground path would be ring terminal (cleaned like that starter shop did) DIRECTLY to bare, shiny metal of the body.
AND WAIT! What's that red wire screwed into a part on upper right-hand corner of picture below? Looks like solid copper wire, too; No-no on automotive wiring where we get a lot of vibration.



Last edited by RAD4Runner; Jan 23, 2018 at 02:02 PM.
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Old Jan 23, 2018 | 12:36 PM
  #33  
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Thank you for this well thought out reply!
That cable the shop cleaned up IS the direct path from battery pos to starter. I will inspect that red wire and let you know what I see. Or take pics did you can see it better.
I will also look around for less obvious grounding I may have missed.
I've started maybe 8 times after cleaning ground and no noise yet including 1 cold start.
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Old Jan 23, 2018 | 02:06 PM
  #34  
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Yes, thick wire from battery positive to the positive screw/stud terminal of the starter solenoid (load supply) here...


Originally Posted by 95yoda
Thank you for this well thought out reply!.
OOPS! sorry (well though-out but MIStyped - LOL!
I meant:
Then... "a direct ground from battery negative post to engine block (That's where starter gets its ground)". I guess that's what you are missing.
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Old Jan 23, 2018 | 02:11 PM
  #35  
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I went out and took an expanded picture of that red wire. I'm not sure what it's for but maybe you can shed some light with this pic.
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Old Jan 23, 2018 | 02:14 PM
  #36  
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I also looked for other grounds. I have mounted to alternator bracket as well as one mounted from firewall to engine lift hook at the back of valve cover.

I do not have one from neg battery post to starter though. Shoukd I add It? And if so, where and how is best to mount to the starter?

thank you.

once I have a picture of how to do something I can get anything done. Well, most anything!
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Old Jan 23, 2018 | 04:13 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by 95yoda
... I have mounted to alternator bracket as well as one mounted from firewall to engine lift hook at the back of valve cover.

I do not have one from neg battery post to starter though. Shoud I add It? And if so, where and how is best to mount to the starter?
once I have a picture of how to do something I can get anything done. Well, most anything!
Ones on alt bracket and on between firewall and engine are too thin for cranking current. That's probably preventing your starter solenoid from actuating completely and making SOLID engagement with the flywheel, and causing that abnormal wear; like rounding a screw head when you don't engage the philips screwdriver completely with it so it slips. That washer was probably a mechanic's mechanical band-aid to correct an electrical problem.

Like I said above, you need a direct (THICK) ground cable to go from battery negative post to the block.
I suggest you:
1) Look at the side of the engine block closest to battery and starter, and find an available thread to fit 8-MM screw (diameter of screw, not size of head). That's approx same as the hole in the ring terminal that would go on the battery negative post.
2) Make sure that spot and the wire run will not get in the way of moving parts (like alt and compressor belts and pulleys).
3) Get battery cable same thickness as the one from battery positive to starter solenoid. It should have a ring terminal to fit the battery positive post on one end and the bolt on the block on the other (typically 5/16-inch or 8mm).
4) Connect from batt neg to that hole on the block. It should kinda look like this.
5) Then have this, OOOPS.... but since you're in Wisconsin... This would be better

It's hard to take a picture on the truck. Below is best example I could find, thanks to GPS4Life.


Last edited by RAD4Runner; Jan 23, 2018 at 04:17 PM.
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Old Jan 23, 2018 | 07:10 PM
  #38  
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I'll take that stout haha.
and thank you very much for the pics and arrows etc. Very helpful. I will get the needed items tomorrow.
thanks again for the help. Much appreciated.
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Old Jan 23, 2018 | 07:47 PM
  #39  
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Most welcome. Sorry, forgot about that red wire. It's hard to tell unless we see where that black wire it's connected to goes. However:
1) It looks just like a ground for something, and
2) I can tell from the wire nut it's bad wiring.

And what is that plate it's connected to? Is that plate connected to body ground? Then there's what seems like a battery cable ring terminal connected on the bottom of that plate. Where does that terminal go? Could that be the terminal for cable that is supposed to go between batt negative and the block?

Last edited by RAD4Runner; Jan 23, 2018 at 09:32 PM.
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Old Jan 24, 2018 | 04:57 AM
  #40  
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That plate is the plate common in all 1st gens I've seen. Some have more vacuums lines than others coming off it. Mine doesn't have many.
no other wire besides the 8ga or so neg ground to inner fender is connected the battery neg post.
that black wire leads to a big run of wires factory wrapped. I will see if i can trace it back.
I could disconnect the red wire and see if i notice a change?
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