1985 22RE-C failed smog and crazy timing readings
Jun 4, 2009 | 02:48 PM
#1
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From: San Diego
1985 22RE-C failed smog and crazy timing readings
So I took my rig to the smog shop (test only) thinking it would pass fine as it runs great and peppy. Well the tech said it smells rich. I agreed to let him do his thing even though I figured his nose knows. Well it failed in the NOx department.
I drove the piss out of it on the way to the shop going uphill on windy roads really winding it out and left it running for 5 minutes until I pulled into his shop. I'm sure the cat was hot.
Well the guy says my timing was reading 40` BTC which is of coarse way off the chart. His explanation of this is that the harmonic balancer's outer ring could have spun. I've never heard of this. Does this sound legit?
Then he checks with the probe and @ 15mph my NOx measured 1425 and the max is 1090.
HC was pretty high @ 112 with a max of 133. Passable.
Can somebody make something of this and help me get this done. I am driving on an expired temp tag in the window.
Times are tough right now and I couldn't even attempt to smog my rig a week ago. Now it looks like its going to take some $$. Anything I can do to help lower my bill is a must.
I drove the piss out of it on the way to the shop going uphill on windy roads really winding it out and left it running for 5 minutes until I pulled into his shop. I'm sure the cat was hot.
Well the guy says my timing was reading 40` BTC which is of coarse way off the chart. His explanation of this is that the harmonic balancer's outer ring could have spun. I've never heard of this. Does this sound legit?
Then he checks with the probe and @ 15mph my NOx measured 1425 and the max is 1090.
HC was pretty high @ 112 with a max of 133. Passable.
Can somebody make something of this and help me get this done. I am driving on an expired temp tag in the window.
Times are tough right now and I couldn't even attempt to smog my rig a week ago. Now it looks like its going to take some $$. Anything I can do to help lower my bill is a must.
Jun 4, 2009 | 02:57 PM
#2
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From: San Diego
Oh yeah, the guy said that the jumper did not put the motor in base timing. It stayed at 40`BTDC with or without the jumper. My timing light is 35 miles away and I don't want to drive the truck anymore than I have to because of the tags.
Jun 4, 2009 | 03:07 PM
#3
Likely the TPS is out of adjustment (as that will cause the timing jumper not to work properly):
- http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/TPS/index.shtml
Fix that, set timing to 5 BTDC or even less and re-test. I find retarding my timing a few degrees helps with NOx. And make sure the EGR is working, EGR reduces NOx. And re-test with premium gas if possible. And might be your cat is starting to wear out, cat reduces HC and NOx.
- http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/TPS/index.shtml
Fix that, set timing to 5 BTDC or even less and re-test. I find retarding my timing a few degrees helps with NOx. And make sure the EGR is working, EGR reduces NOx. And re-test with premium gas if possible. And might be your cat is starting to wear out, cat reduces HC and NOx.
Jun 4, 2009 | 03:39 PM
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From: San Diego
4Crawler thanks. I was hoping you come across my post. You always have lots of info. And this time is no different.
If the self diagnosis plug is not working to get the truck into base timing, will engine codes still show if I have one?
If the self diagnosis plug is not working to get the truck into base timing, will engine codes still show if I have one?
Jun 4, 2009 | 08:51 PM
#6
Well several factors, if the jumper is not being sensed at the ECU then no codes would be displayed since the ECU won't see the jumper. If codes do show or the light flashes normally, then the jumper itself is working. But you need jumper + TPS IDLe-E2 closed for the base timing to change. After all that is the only way the ECU knows the engine is at idle.
Jun 4, 2009 | 08:54 PM
#7
The Factory Service Manual has a full test procedure, but quick check apply vacuum at the EGR valve and engine should stumble or die. But mine will pass the test and fail the smog dyno test. You need to make sure ALL the EGR passages are totally clean, from the head and manifold back through the cooler to the valve and all the tubes hooked to the valve. Even then it is a crap shoot as the early 22REs were not designed to pass the NOx tests on the dyno.
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Jun 5, 2009 | 10:33 AM
#9
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From: San Diego
Okay I think that my TPS is bad. I haven't tried to adjust it yet I just checked the resitances according to 4Crawlers tech page and these are my readings
meter set at
Test 1= .554 2K
Test 2= open
Test 3= open
Test 4= 4.93 20K
Test 5= .560 2K
Before I replace this TPS can somebody confirm that it is junk? It is about a $200 part and I don't have enough $$ to throw it around uselessly. I may have other issues before it passes.
meter set at
Test 1= .554 2K
Test 2= open
Test 3= open
Test 4= 4.93 20K
Test 5= .560 2K
Before I replace this TPS can somebody confirm that it is junk? It is about a $200 part and I don't have enough $$ to throw it around uselessly. I may have other issues before it passes.
Jun 5, 2009 | 10:38 AM
#10
Aside from the last test, the rest appear to be reasonable. #2 will change w/ adjustment. Not sure what the affect of the Vcc-E2 resistance reading is for the ECU, you might also try re-testing that, or perhaps you meant you used the 20K scale for that instead of the 2K scale.
Jun 5, 2009 | 10:48 AM
#12
# Test #2 and #3 test the transition from idle to normal operation
* Note that the exact feeler gauge values are not terribly important, use the closest gauge you have to the value, or stack two thinner gauges to make one the right thickness. Its unlikely you'll be able to adjust the TPS by hand to 0.001" anyway (in fact if you can get within 0.01" or 0.1mm you are doing pretty good!).
* And note that there are a range of values for these tests on the V6 TPS. One might suspect that the "exact" throttle opening where the IDL-E2 setting changes from below 2300 ohms to infinite makes little difference. Rather it is the fact that it *does* change and does so at a small throttle opening (under 1mm or so). Whether that happens at 0.50mm, 0.70mm, or even 0.90mm probably makes little difference.
o Setting the TPS idle transition too close to 0 opening may result in a rough idling engine if the throttle were to stick open a tiny bit.
o Setting the transition too far out, would result in a sluggish throttle response, since the ECU would see a longer idle section on the TPS.
o Note: 0.80mm is about the thickness of a typical credit card, 0.50mm is about the thickness of a thinner plastic gift card, in case you lack a set of feeler gauges.
* So, if your TPS makes the idle transition (below 2300 to infinite) but you can only get it to do so at say 0.90mm instead of at 0.85mm, for example, does this mean the TPS is bad? Probably not, if everything else checks out, you may just be seeing the effect of the mfg. tolerances of the TPS and the throttle body stacking up and pushing the setting outside the "normal" range. Now, if the TPS never makes the idle transition (i.e. it reads infinite at all throttle openings), then likely it is bad.
* Note that the exact feeler gauge values are not terribly important, use the closest gauge you have to the value, or stack two thinner gauges to make one the right thickness. Its unlikely you'll be able to adjust the TPS by hand to 0.001" anyway (in fact if you can get within 0.01" or 0.1mm you are doing pretty good!).
* And note that there are a range of values for these tests on the V6 TPS. One might suspect that the "exact" throttle opening where the IDL-E2 setting changes from below 2300 ohms to infinite makes little difference. Rather it is the fact that it *does* change and does so at a small throttle opening (under 1mm or so). Whether that happens at 0.50mm, 0.70mm, or even 0.90mm probably makes little difference.
o Setting the TPS idle transition too close to 0 opening may result in a rough idling engine if the throttle were to stick open a tiny bit.
o Setting the transition too far out, would result in a sluggish throttle response, since the ECU would see a longer idle section on the TPS.
o Note: 0.80mm is about the thickness of a typical credit card, 0.50mm is about the thickness of a thinner plastic gift card, in case you lack a set of feeler gauges.
* So, if your TPS makes the idle transition (below 2300 to infinite) but you can only get it to do so at say 0.90mm instead of at 0.85mm, for example, does this mean the TPS is bad? Probably not, if everything else checks out, you may just be seeing the effect of the mfg. tolerances of the TPS and the throttle body stacking up and pushing the setting outside the "normal" range. Now, if the TPS never makes the idle transition (i.e. it reads infinite at all throttle openings), then likely it is bad.
Jun 5, 2009 | 11:24 AM
#13
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From: San Diego
So if I get this right to adjust the TPS you would have a feeler guage approx .57mm (or gift card) between the stop and plunger and adjust TPS until I get a resistance of less than 2.3K ohms between IDL and E2?
If I did this then the other readings should improve?
I'm going to mark the original location and try this. I assume that I can just put it back where it was and drive it if I have to. Which I will.
Testing between VTA and E2 the resistance did change corresponding with the amount of throttle opening but not with the IDL to E2
Test 5 readings are 5.1 with meter at 200k
5.15 @ 20K
open @ 2K
If I did this then the other readings should improve?
I'm going to mark the original location and try this. I assume that I can just put it back where it was and drive it if I have to. Which I will.
Testing between VTA and E2 the resistance did change corresponding with the amount of throttle opening but not with the IDL to E2
Test 5 readings are 5.1 with meter at 200k
5.15 @ 20K
open @ 2K
Jun 5, 2009 | 11:44 AM
#14
So if I get this right to adjust the TPS you would have a feeler guage approx .57mm (or gift card) between the stop and plunger and adjust TPS until I get a resistance of less than 2.3K ohms between IDL and E2?
If I did this then the other readings should improve?
I'm going to mark the original location and try this. I assume that I can just put it back where it was and drive it if I have to. Which I will.
Testing between VTA and E2 the resistance did change corresponding with the amount of throttle opening but not with the IDL to E2
Test 5 readings are 5.1 with meter at 200k
5.15 @ 20K
open @ 2K
If I did this then the other readings should improve?
I'm going to mark the original location and try this. I assume that I can just put it back where it was and drive it if I have to. Which I will.
Testing between VTA and E2 the resistance did change corresponding with the amount of throttle opening but not with the IDL to E2
Test 5 readings are 5.1 with meter at 200k
5.15 @ 20K
open @ 2K
With test #2, you are just adjusting where the IDLe contact opens. Should not affect the other readings all that much.
Looks like Test 5 is OK, 5.0 on 200K = 5100 ohms, 5.15 on 20K is 5150 ohms and open on 2K simply says that the resistance reading is > 2000 (2K) ohms and indeed 5100 or 5150 is > 2000 and within the 3900-9000 ohm test range.
Jun 5, 2009 | 12:04 PM
#15
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From: San Diego
4Crawler, I looked at my TPS part number and it isn't either of the numbers you show in your link.
Mine is p/n 89452-28010
Is this an old style?
I am assuming the below number is maybe new and improved. Updated or whatever.
The new replacement for my truck is the 89452-20060.
Mine is p/n 89452-28010
Is this an old style?
I am assuming the below number is maybe new and improved. Updated or whatever.
The new replacement for my truck is the 89452-20060.
Jun 5, 2009 | 12:34 PM
#16
4Crawler, I looked at my TPS part number and it isn't either of the numbers you show in your link.
Mine is p/n 89452-28010
Is this an old style?
I am assuming the below number is maybe new and improved. Updated or whatever.
The new replacement for my truck is the 89452-20060.
Mine is p/n 89452-28010
Is this an old style?
I am assuming the below number is maybe new and improved. Updated or whatever.
The new replacement for my truck is the 89452-20060.
Jun 5, 2009 | 12:53 PM
#17
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From: San Diego
Alright I've decided to get to the TPS via removal of the throttle body. It seems that people are cleaning theirs and getting good results. My idle does fluctuate more than it probably should. Anyways, I'm off to the parts store for some throttle body cleaner and I guess I'd better get a gasket or two. One for TPS and one for throttle body to intake.
I've got my hands on a brand new TPS the 20060 and will put it in if needed.
Will adjusting an out of adjustment TPS fix the base timing/jumper problem?
I've got my hands on a brand new TPS the 20060 and will put it in if needed.
Will adjusting an out of adjustment TPS fix the base timing/jumper problem?
Jun 5, 2009 | 12:55 PM
#18
Jun 5, 2009 | 07:38 PM
#19
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From: San Diego
Okay, I've got the allen screws, the TB gasket, a new TPS if needed, and some throttle body cleaner. I took off the TB and couldn't believe what it looked like behind there.
Theres moist and clingy black crap all over the bottom and sides. I scraped some off with my finger and now I want to get more off with the cleaner I bought.
My question is, will all the debris and goo running down into the lower part of the intake just get burned and pushed through or is the crap and aresol going to do any damage just sitting down there?
I know I should take it off to get the rear section clean good too but is it a must? I have plans sunday and need the truck.
Theres moist and clingy black crap all over the bottom and sides. I scraped some off with my finger and now I want to get more off with the cleaner I bought.
My question is, will all the debris and goo running down into the lower part of the intake just get burned and pushed through or is the crap and aresol going to do any damage just sitting down there?
I know I should take it off to get the rear section clean good too but is it a must? I have plans sunday and need the truck.
Jun 5, 2009 | 10:07 PM
#20
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From: GrangeVille, Idaho
To clean the upper intake manifold you will need to remove it, its just to hard to try and clean on the truck, its not hard to remove, its held in place by 6-8 bolts. For the harmonic balancer it is possible for it to spin out of time, this happened on my cousins 86 4Runner, his balancer spun 10 degrees out of time causing him to fail the smog test so he replaced the balancer and all was good and he passed.
