above we see a typical panard setup on a lifted 4runner. the panhard locates the axle side to side in a suspension, most know this. what most people dont know is that it also determines the height of the suspension's roll center.

what is the roll center? the roll center is the point about which the suspension pivots.

why is the RC height relevant? the height of the RC relative to the vehicle's center of gravity will determine how stable the suspension will be on a sidehill. the higher the RC, the more stable the suspension will be.

in reality, you should move the panhard as high as you can get it and still clear everything. most people use a panhard drop bracket when they should use a panhard lift bracket.



notice how high the panard is on the above 4runner. this 4runner has a much higher roll center relative to its center of gravity. this 4runner should handle much better on a sidehill.

 

Do you make this lift bracket for 3rd gens or do you know who does?

 

if i had a 3rd gen or a 3rd gen rear axle, i could make one, but i dont.

i dont know of anyone who does either.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't 44Runner have a lift bracket on the axle of his 4Runner a long time ago? I think I ran across a pic of it when I was searching to do my panhard drop bracket.

 

Really, that answers a good question for me. It would be easy to do a lift bracket on the 3rd gen, barring any clearance issues on the driver's side. Thanks Peter!

Chris

 

how about an extended panhard bar, how would that compare to a lift or drop bracket? just as good?

 

Extended would be fine if your suspension didn't move. It won't work, because when the suspension cycles it will move the axle further side to side.

Chris

 

Very interesting.

So why is it that the common perception is to drop the panhard bar and not raise it?

 

Where does Steve's S-Bend Panhard fall in the scheme of things?

 

Whether you want a longer or shorter panhard depends on what you want to do. As SCrunner found, a longer panhard on a 3rd gen pushes the driveshaft into the gas tank when the driver's side rear tire is compressed. On a 2nd gen, the opposite is true since the gas tank is on the passenger side. Of course, one of the goals of modifying the panhard is to relocate the axle to the center at ride height. Nevermind that you really have to lift the truck a lot (probably into the 4+ inch range) to significantly changed where the axle sits. Don't believe me? Draw a 3 foot radius circle, draw a horizontal line through the center. Now rotate that horizontal line down 3 inches and measure see how far the intersection of the line and the circle move laterally.

Probably the reason most people use a drop bracket is because that is what downey did first.

Bending does nothing (I sound like a broken record). The only thing that changes the travel arc is the straight line distance from eye to eye and the pivot point locations. It could be bent into square knot and it wouldn't change the motion of travel.

 

robinhood is right, the shape makes no difference, the way it acts is the same as if you draw a straight line through the mounting bolts.

assuming your panhard sits level (the mounting bolts), the height of the panhard is the RC.

if it sits at an angle the height of the RC is halfway between the upper and lower bolt.

 

so did all of us who have panhard lift brackets on our 4runners waste our money? are they really only "hurting" our suspension since it lowers it to a lesser angle? would it be better for us not to have a bracket at all and just have our axle out of sinc a little bit? because i dont know about you guys, but my panhard is a pain in the ass to get back on if i disconnect it.

 

i've still have my panhard drop bracket and have not been able to put it in :pat:


now i can get rid of it....awsome, i can make a lift bracket myself and my driver side comes off real easy

 

Nice to see some people are really starting to learn the difference, I never bothered to build a bracket, because I have plans to re-do the entire rear link system.

Increasing the rollcenter is a good thing.......

 

Interesting...

I have been running the SS bent bar. I think it is a nice bolt on fix for on-road application. However, if moving the axle end up and going back to a stock length bar will increase my off-road ability and on-road performance as well I am interested.

My question is this...

Why is the panhard rod not centered on the axle? The drivers side (axle side) is moved in a good 4 inches beyond where the passenger side (frame side) is placed.

 

Words of caution:

Let's not be hasty and start throwing things away. Trends come and go, one day it's tundra coils, the next day it's revos.

Keep in mind there is a difference between the 3rd gens and 2nd gens. With the 2nd gens a longer panhard or relocated pivot points will push the driveshaft away from the gas tank (although mine still hits). Another benefit some members found for the 3rd gens is the tires don't rub at full compression with a panhard drop.

In the end, does it matter if the driveshaft scrapes a little? So what if it does as long as everything still works? I know some of you are going to say, "but I want to do it RIGHT." I'm going to spend my money on things that matter...

 

I think that question goes beyond the scope of this forum. To answer it, you'd probably have to pick up a book on suspension design and run through equations.

Either that or the engineer said, "hmmm...let's throw a dart..."

 

I wonder if you could just flip your bar Jim and make the mount on the axle that much higher. That would really raise the roll center if that was done.

Chris

 

There are a few reasons why it isn't attached to the center, the Panhard rod is pivoted at both axle and body forcing the axle to move in an arc, thus introducing a sideways component into the vertical movement of the axle. The longer the bar the less effect it will have, also having the two pivot points as close to horizontal at ride height reduces this effect as well. Second is very simple, you can't mount the bar any further out on the axle, it will interfere with the frame on compression.

Also you'll notice that the axle mount will always be on the drivers side and frame mount on the passenger side, what this does, it counters the effect from the rotational torque of the engine. In the case where someone does a SAS link set-up the panhard bar is actually mounted wrong, which would increase the effect of the engines torque, but because of the way the steering is mounted, you have no choice, bumpsteer would be insane, unless you run full hydro system.

The only true way to keep the axle on a vertical plane is to install a Watts linkage, but this isn't too practical for offroad use




Except there isn't enough room for the mount to clear on compression

 

I haven't done a thing to mine yet and have never had any rubbing issues with my tires, as for the skid plate I simply hammer formed the portion that the driveshaft hits and installed a flush mount allen head screw where the zerk fitting was.

BTW if you choose to do a lift bracket, compress the suspension to make sure it doesn't collide with the frame crossmember......