TRD Injector Kit ($1299)!
Oct 15, 2003 | 09:43 PM
#161
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 9,048
Likes: 2
From: Seattleish, WA
I've been trying to get this posted all day, but haven't been able to get onto the board. argh. Anyway!!!
I gots to take a ride with Rob; our fearless 7th injector trail-blazer. In six words or less..
Holy S**t!!!
{quick backgrounder - Rob runs 35" tires, stock gearing, TRD headers and is S/C'd}
I last rode with Rob around the beginning of August. At that time, we were on paved roads for a couple of hours and I got used to how his rig "felt" in terms of power to pass slower vehicles and generally just tooling around.
I came away from that ride thinking "oh, this is kinda' sad... ". Of course, the "problem" I was feeling was the larger tires with the stock gearing.
I can _easily_ say, that with the 7th injector in place, (and still running 35's with stock gearing) the truck feels like it _should_. i.e., the added power is making up for the low gearing in the backend.
Once Rob moves up to 4.56 gears, that truck is gonna haul. No question about it.
Now, the downside that I see to this is the cost - BUT - what the cost is buying you is a pure plug & play (_NOT_ plug & PRAY) solution. The install was straight-forward, and only required wrenches and screwdrivers. NO cutting, NO hacking, NO twiddling, NO meters to measure airflow, O2 sensors, fuel flow, etc.
This is EXACTLY what Rob was looking for, and YOU may be looking for something that you _CAN_ twiddle with.
It's possible (and even probable) that the normal solution of fuel pump, larger injectors, and a fuel management unit can be tweaked into the "bolt-on" performance that happens with the 7th injector mod, but you have to look at the time involvement to be fair about it.
For me, I _like_ the ability to tweak, and if I was S/C'd, I would _not_ go with the 7th injector solution because it's YetAnotherBlackBox. But I can certainly see how paying for someone else's time, sweat and sleepless nights would be a good thing to reduce my grey hair count.
Bottom line - the performance gains are real for this mod. In addition, there is an _incredibly_ smooth idle waiting for you, and the silence of no pinging.
I gots to take a ride with Rob; our fearless 7th injector trail-blazer. In six words or less..
Holy S**t!!!
{quick backgrounder - Rob runs 35" tires, stock gearing, TRD headers and is S/C'd}
I last rode with Rob around the beginning of August. At that time, we were on paved roads for a couple of hours and I got used to how his rig "felt" in terms of power to pass slower vehicles and generally just tooling around.
I came away from that ride thinking "oh, this is kinda' sad... ". Of course, the "problem" I was feeling was the larger tires with the stock gearing.
I can _easily_ say, that with the 7th injector in place, (and still running 35's with stock gearing) the truck feels like it _should_. i.e., the added power is making up for the low gearing in the backend.
Once Rob moves up to 4.56 gears, that truck is gonna haul. No question about it.
Now, the downside that I see to this is the cost - BUT - what the cost is buying you is a pure plug & play (_NOT_ plug & PRAY) solution. The install was straight-forward, and only required wrenches and screwdrivers. NO cutting, NO hacking, NO twiddling, NO meters to measure airflow, O2 sensors, fuel flow, etc.
This is EXACTLY what Rob was looking for, and YOU may be looking for something that you _CAN_ twiddle with.
It's possible (and even probable) that the normal solution of fuel pump, larger injectors, and a fuel management unit can be tweaked into the "bolt-on" performance that happens with the 7th injector mod, but you have to look at the time involvement to be fair about it.
For me, I _like_ the ability to tweak, and if I was S/C'd, I would _not_ go with the 7th injector solution because it's YetAnotherBlackBox. But I can certainly see how paying for someone else's time, sweat and sleepless nights would be a good thing to reduce my grey hair count.
Bottom line - the performance gains are real for this mod. In addition, there is an _incredibly_ smooth idle waiting for you, and the silence of no pinging.
Oct 16, 2003 | 01:49 AM
#162
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,697
Likes: 0
From: Deep Gap, NC
For only 15 HP and 15 ft-lbs of torque that comes out to $86.60/HP gained, which in my opinion, no matter how you look at it, is not worth the money at all.
The only thing I see this mod does is make the truck more durable, and it shouldn't be purchased for more performance.
Chris
The only thing I see this mod does is make the truck more durable, and it shouldn't be purchased for more performance.
Chris
Oct 16, 2003 | 05:18 AM
#164
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,539
Likes: 0
From: Southern MD USA
You have to understand how all this HP claims stuff works.
There is a BIG difference between changes in PEAK power and changes in NON-PEAK power.
If you look at the old dyno runs on my site you will see that I was able to increase the power by 33 HP with just the $200 BAP. This was not a 33 HP increase in PEAK power, but in NON-PEAK. In the upper RPMs where it was leaning out really bad, the BAP with the old TRD FMU stopped the fuel pressure loss and reduced the high RPM lean out and that differential was 33 HP while the PEAK power only changed by about 18 HP.
Now if you go to the TRD website and find 3.4 supercharger page and then click on the 7th injector link you will see a chart that shows their claims in power increases. You will see that the 21% claim they are using is in the NON-PEAK power increase by preventing or reducing the high RPM lean out. It IS NOT a 21% increase in PEAK power.
Now, thier claims of PEAK power increase are really interesting. Remember they are using CRANKSHAFT HP that none of use can check ourselves and that is why they use it and it will report much higher numbers then we will ever see on a chassis dyno.
This is the part I find so interesting. In all the adds of the past they claimed 265-270 HP with the supercharger, right?? Now they are claiming that the supercharger alone is 223 HP. Where did those 43 HP disapear to??? Anyway, with thier 7th injector kit, they are now claiming 262 HP. If any of you can figure out why there are all these radical changes in their HP claims please fill me in.
In the end, it is my opinion that final HP numbers are not as important as drivability and long term durability. If their $1300 7th injector kit really does not increase peak power and clearly cures the high RPM leanout problem so your engine will last, then it is still worth it. All people that have gotten the thing report that is drives better which is a big plus in my book, and preventing the high RPM leanout is a very big plus even if the true HP numbers are disapointing.
I strongly urge you all that have superchargers to either do it TRD's way or my way, but it is something that needs to be done.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
There is a BIG difference between changes in PEAK power and changes in NON-PEAK power.
If you look at the old dyno runs on my site you will see that I was able to increase the power by 33 HP with just the $200 BAP. This was not a 33 HP increase in PEAK power, but in NON-PEAK. In the upper RPMs where it was leaning out really bad, the BAP with the old TRD FMU stopped the fuel pressure loss and reduced the high RPM lean out and that differential was 33 HP while the PEAK power only changed by about 18 HP.
Now if you go to the TRD website and find 3.4 supercharger page and then click on the 7th injector link you will see a chart that shows their claims in power increases. You will see that the 21% claim they are using is in the NON-PEAK power increase by preventing or reducing the high RPM lean out. It IS NOT a 21% increase in PEAK power.
Now, thier claims of PEAK power increase are really interesting. Remember they are using CRANKSHAFT HP that none of use can check ourselves and that is why they use it and it will report much higher numbers then we will ever see on a chassis dyno.
This is the part I find so interesting. In all the adds of the past they claimed 265-270 HP with the supercharger, right?? Now they are claiming that the supercharger alone is 223 HP. Where did those 43 HP disapear to??? Anyway, with thier 7th injector kit, they are now claiming 262 HP. If any of you can figure out why there are all these radical changes in their HP claims please fill me in.
In the end, it is my opinion that final HP numbers are not as important as drivability and long term durability. If their $1300 7th injector kit really does not increase peak power and clearly cures the high RPM leanout problem so your engine will last, then it is still worth it. All people that have gotten the thing report that is drives better which is a big plus in my book, and preventing the high RPM leanout is a very big plus even if the true HP numbers are disapointing.
I strongly urge you all that have superchargers to either do it TRD's way or my way, but it is something that needs to be done.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
Oct 16, 2003 | 05:51 AM
#165
Contributing Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 8,807
Likes: 3
From: Montreal, QC Canada
Originally posted by Gadget
This is the part I find so interesting. In all the adds of the past they claimed 265-270 HP with the supercharger, right?? Now they are claiming that the supercharger alone is 223 HP. Where did those 43 HP disapear to??? Anyway, with thier 7th injector kit, they are now claiming 262 HP. If any of you can figure out why there are all these radical changes in their HP claims please fill me in.
This is the part I find so interesting. In all the adds of the past they claimed 265-270 HP with the supercharger, right?? Now they are claiming that the supercharger alone is 223 HP. Where did those 43 HP disapear to??? Anyway, with thier 7th injector kit, they are now claiming 262 HP. If any of you can figure out why there are all these radical changes in their HP claims please fill me in.
It is certainly classic for marketing to have fun with the numbers or to use crankshaft numbers which very few could ever check, but I am surprised if they outright lied on the capabilities of their product and then tried to save face by producing different numbers later. That is really a big no,no and certainly falls under the class "false advertising".
I must say I am impressed with what I hear about the kit as more people try it out and one of the aspects I think is creating such an impressive gain in useable performance is the intercooling effect. One of the reasons I liked centrifugal type charges was their ability to intercool easily. It seems that while a roots blower may not be as efficient, the cooling effect the injector provides certainly helps. Simply getting rid of the lean condition is a given no matter what setup you are going to use and both should work equally well.
Oct 16, 2003 | 06:18 AM
#166
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,539
Likes: 0
From: Southern MD USA
Try not to get to sucked in by this "intercooling effect" smoke screen. People in the know, know that gasoline is the worst stuff to use for doing this. It is a very poor heat absorber. Water is much better and alcohol is even better.
The fact is that the power is coming from preventing the high RPM lean out that TRD has claimed for years did not exist. Now they are marketing a kit to prevent the high RPM leanout but are trying to switch the focus away from that simple fact and have put up this smoke screan by touting the "intercooling effect".
Also, it is not a good idea to run a liquid through the supercharger, but to sell you that this is a good idea, they sell you on this "intercooling effect".
Now, if this "intercooling effect" was so substantial, then were is the numbers to support it? You can get the same performance increase just by using the proper size fuel injectors with no "intercooling effect" for a lot less money.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
The fact is that the power is coming from preventing the high RPM lean out that TRD has claimed for years did not exist. Now they are marketing a kit to prevent the high RPM leanout but are trying to switch the focus away from that simple fact and have put up this smoke screan by touting the "intercooling effect".
Also, it is not a good idea to run a liquid through the supercharger, but to sell you that this is a good idea, they sell you on this "intercooling effect".
Now, if this "intercooling effect" was so substantial, then were is the numbers to support it? You can get the same performance increase just by using the proper size fuel injectors with no "intercooling effect" for a lot less money.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
Oct 16, 2003 | 07:30 AM
#168
Contributing Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 8,807
Likes: 3
From: Montreal, QC Canada
Surely the gasloine running through the S/C is drawing some heat away from the air and the S/C itself. I do certainly agree that gasoline if you compare it to alcohol is a very poor heat conductor as you can see below. I have said from the beginning that I did think this setup was a bandaid for a design problem due to a highend leanout but it also seems that some benefit may come from running some portion of the fuel through the S/C.
Heat of Vaporization in BTU/lb fuel
-----------------------------------
Gasoline 117
Ethanol 396 238% More heat
Methanol 502 329% More heat
Nitro methane 268 129% More heat
http://www.homestead.com/21stcentury..._Facts.wps.doc
Gasoline may actually be better to run through the S/C (than water or alcohol) because it does not draw as much heat and is thus far less likely to damage the S/C components. Runnign anything through the S/C is generally a bad idea because of the thermal stresses created via the uneven cooling (or large localized temp differences) and thus with gasoline they are at least minimized.
I do also agree with you that they should produce numbers, but hey, they don't care as long as people buy the kit and pay the $1200, right?
Heat of Vaporization in BTU/lb fuel
-----------------------------------
Gasoline 117
Ethanol 396 238% More heat
Methanol 502 329% More heat
Nitro methane 268 129% More heat
http://www.homestead.com/21stcentury..._Facts.wps.doc
Gasoline may actually be better to run through the S/C (than water or alcohol) because it does not draw as much heat and is thus far less likely to damage the S/C components. Runnign anything through the S/C is generally a bad idea because of the thermal stresses created via the uneven cooling (or large localized temp differences) and thus with gasoline they are at least minimized.
I do also agree with you that they should produce numbers, but hey, they don't care as long as people buy the kit and pay the $1200, right?
Oct 16, 2003 | 08:45 AM
#169
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 0
From: Phoenix, AZ
Oct 16, 2003 | 09:29 AM
#170
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
From: Wake Forest, NC
In the event you didn't see it over in the TTORA board, before and after Dyno runs, about 15hp. Now, there is one thing to consider, the runs were NOT on the same Dyno. At least it's one data point! http://forums.delphiforums.com/tacom...es?msg=97274.1
Oct 16, 2003 | 12:47 PM
#171
Contributing Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,089
Likes: 0
From: Duvall, WA
True, true...
Different dyno, different day so there may be some slop in the numbers.
We are also only talking about one vehicle here... not exactly statistically significant. It will be fun to see the results as a few more folks do dyno runs, with some being done a bit more scientifically.
Different dyno, different day so there may be some slop in the numbers.
We are also only talking about one vehicle here... not exactly statistically significant. It will be fun to see the results as a few more folks do dyno runs, with some being done a bit more scientifically.
Oct 16, 2003 | 03:00 PM
#172
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,539
Likes: 0
From: Southern MD USA
Originally posted by mgspann
Any news on your kit Gadget?? What "might" it include "if" and when it is all ready to go?
BTW-thanks for all your insight into the supercharger thing.
Any news on your kit Gadget?? What "might" it include "if" and when it is all ready to go?
BTW-thanks for all your insight into the supercharger thing.
6 new injectors
6 injector adapter plugs
6 spark plugs
190 LPH pump
a well proven fuel and ignition controller
programming software
thermostat
a pile of odds and ends
All in one box at a price much lower then you can ever source yourself.
This kit will cure the HG/LR-Ping, and the high RPM lean out problem. You will also have the ability to make adjustments to the controller if you need to for adding additional mods.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
Oct 16, 2003 | 03:39 PM
#173
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,697
Likes: 0
From: Deep Gap, NC
Originally posted by MTL_4runner
Surely the gasloine running through the S/C is drawing some heat away from the air and the S/C itself. I do certainly agree that gasoline if you compare it to alcohol is a very poor heat conductor as you can see below. I have said from the beginning that I did think this setup was a bandaid for a design problem due to a highend leanout but it also seems that some benefit may come from running some portion of the fuel through the S/C.
Heat of Vaporization in BTU/lb fuel
-----------------------------------
Gasoline 117
Ethanol 396 238% More heat
Methanol 502 329% More heat
Nitro methane 268 129% More heat
http://www.homestead.com/21stcentury..._Facts.wps.doc
Surely the gasloine running through the S/C is drawing some heat away from the air and the S/C itself. I do certainly agree that gasoline if you compare it to alcohol is a very poor heat conductor as you can see below. I have said from the beginning that I did think this setup was a bandaid for a design problem due to a highend leanout but it also seems that some benefit may come from running some portion of the fuel through the S/C.
Heat of Vaporization in BTU/lb fuel
-----------------------------------
Gasoline 117
Ethanol 396 238% More heat
Methanol 502 329% More heat
Nitro methane 268 129% More heat
http://www.homestead.com/21stcentury..._Facts.wps.doc
Chris
Oct 16, 2003 | 04:29 PM
#175
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,539
Likes: 0
From: Southern MD USA
I was hoping to start taking orders today, but it look like next week now. My partner is the one that is going to set the final price and he is away with his girl this weekend.
We are still waiting on the shipment of injectors to arrive. They are being custom machined to our specifications. I have been running them for a few weeks now and have been wonderful.
Once we get the first batch of kits out then we will start selling the individual componants if anyone wants them. I know lots of people already have bits and pieces of the fuel mods and my just need the last couple of items to finish it up so we want to help out those folks with discounted stuff.
What I do need if there is anyone that wants to help us out. I need someone in the DC area that has a 99+ Taco or 4Runner what is not Cali spec and has a standard O2 sensor. I need your truck to make the start up program for that truck. What you get out of it is free install and a custom tune. I hope you have a Gen II supercharger because they are so much easier to take off and reinstall. I also hope you have a standard height truck. Lifted trucks are a pain to work on. Anyone interested?
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
We are still waiting on the shipment of injectors to arrive. They are being custom machined to our specifications. I have been running them for a few weeks now and have been wonderful.
Once we get the first batch of kits out then we will start selling the individual componants if anyone wants them. I know lots of people already have bits and pieces of the fuel mods and my just need the last couple of items to finish it up so we want to help out those folks with discounted stuff.
What I do need if there is anyone that wants to help us out. I need someone in the DC area that has a 99+ Taco or 4Runner what is not Cali spec and has a standard O2 sensor. I need your truck to make the start up program for that truck. What you get out of it is free install and a custom tune. I hope you have a Gen II supercharger because they are so much easier to take off and reinstall. I also hope you have a standard height truck. Lifted trucks are a pain to work on. Anyone interested?
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
Oct 16, 2003 | 07:09 PM
#176
Contributing Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,549
Likes: 0
From: Albuquerque, NM
Gadget, I am very interested in your kit. Even at over 5k feet I still get pinging.
I am quite comfortable installing the kit. However, I haven't done any "computer" type tuning before. How much instruction will your kit include as far as tuning?
And, I wish I were in DC I would go for your offer in a heart beat.
I am quite comfortable installing the kit. However, I haven't done any "computer" type tuning before. How much instruction will your kit include as far as tuning?
And, I wish I were in DC I would go for your offer in a heart beat.
Oct 16, 2003 | 07:40 PM
#178
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Gadget, thanks I'll be waiting on pins and needles!
I would love to be your project truck unfortunately I'm about 600 miles away.
I have all your requirements except I have a first gen S/C'r.
How long would you need the truck for anyways?
I would love to be your project truck unfortunately I'm about 600 miles away.
I have all your requirements except I have a first gen S/C'r.
How long would you need the truck for anyways?
Oct 16, 2003 | 07:48 PM
#179
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,539
Likes: 0
From: Southern MD USA
It does not need to be a 2nd gen, but they are much easier to remove and reinstall.
One very long day should do it.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
One very long day should do it.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
Oct 16, 2003 | 07:53 PM
#180
Contributing Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,549
Likes: 0
From: Albuquerque, NM
Gadget, Any response on the instructions for tuning. I know all trucks will be different especially at different elevations. I just would like to know how much of a "plug-n-play"system this is?
