Thanks for all the info TA.

He just installed it this week in preparation for the TX MILE. I'm flying out tomorrow to pit crew on his and another buddy's cars. So far he's only made the one pull with the meth on the car to test the system.

I agree I think he needs a bigger nozzle on there, but I'm new to the meth stuff. It would seem to me with the water/meth flashing in the cylinder that should be pulling heat out of the system and since the IAT is right above the cylinder it would show a cooler temp, but again I'm new to this. Also, the fluid evaporating off the intercooler I'd think would help its efficiency some not hurt it. You basically have water going across the fins with air blowing on it.

Do you know if he can just buy any o'l 1000cc nozzle and do a direct swap with the AEM one he has on there now? Here's the nozzle he has now, it has a filter, check valve, and all that built in. Are the "nozzles" just 1/8 NPT and screw right in?

http://www.aemelectronics.com/water-...nozzle-kit-788


OH, and I forgot to add, the car also has a 150 shot of nitrous LOL It's a beast and ran 186 at the TX Mile back in October. I have some photos and video on my website.

 

You are correct that in the cylinder the water will flash and absorb a lot of heat, This will drop the EGT's and make it far less knock prone. This however will not effect the IAT's since it happens after the cylinder is closed.

The fluid evaporating off the intercooler is not a problem I think he will have since it is going though the supercharger first, that will pretty well mix/atomize the fluid into the air to the point there is not much liquid left to attach to the IC. That issue will mainly come up on a turbo setup with the nozzle after the turbo but before the intercooler where there is raw fluid that can attach to the intercooler.

Why this is bad takes a little thinking, at first glance what you are saying is what most think to be correct till you really break it down. The fluid on the internal surface of the intercooler is cooling the wrong thing, it is cooling the outside air instead of the internal air charge. Thus further hurting the intercoolers efficiency and possibly heating the air in extreme conditions.

Now spraying water on the OUTSIDE of the intercooler (this would be like putting ice in an A2W setup like this) will serve to improve the intercooler performance and lower internal air temps by increasing the temperature differential between the internal air charge and the intercooler. This is a great and cheap mod that a lot of guys do on turbo cars. Free power.

Even if he doesn't see a drop in IAT's don't think the system is not working, you are still gaining the extra octane, knock suppression and cooler EGT's (important for something like the mile in particular).

The AEM nozzle uses a funky thread, no other nozzle will screw into the same place directly but they are close enough that you can usually make it work. Other nozzles use a 1/8th NPT thread. FYI, devils own is in OK and the nozzle would most likely get there next day to TX, at least it gets to me next day in DFW. If he is also running nitrous, then get a bigger nozzle for sure, EGT's and cyclinder pressure sore with nitrous.

A few points if he is setting up the meth system on the fly like this, it really should be retuned to take advantage of it. Just bolting it onto a motor without any tuning at all will generally only net you minor gains and in some cases loss of power. Most modern ECU's can adjust timing automatically though so that will take care of most of the adjustments.

What are your ECU's capable of? Do they adjust timing automatically like the 4runner? You will want to run some extra timing with the meth for sure (my 4runner ran an extra 10+ degrees of timing with the meth injection, my MR2 an extra 6-8 degrees on an incomplete and conservative tune). Also will want to lean it out some as well, at least back to where it was pre-meth if not a little leaner depending on what the baseline was.

With a retune he should see some nice gains and be safer to boot. The combo of high compression, boost and nitrous is a prime candidate for meth injection if tuned properly. Any idea how much timing he has to pull out from the stock tune for his setup?

Hopefully you would have some time to play with the tune and with nozzles as well. That will be the key to getting the most out of the setup.

If you want you can PM me and I can send you my phone number in case you have any questions at the TX mile.

I see you edited, that is the new AEM nozzle holder. The nozzle itself looks the same and the thread looks the same but they could have changed it to NPT thread. I have not messed with the new nozzles since I try to stay far away from the AEM kits now.

Either way the AEM thread was close enough to NPT that you could make it work in a pinch. I would get a second nozzle if possible though, biggest single nozzle you can really find is 14gph and he really needs more then that.

 

Ok I'll shoot you a PM and thanks again for all the info.

The Challenger has knock sensors and all that, but it's MAP based not MAF like the 4Runner so you have to tell it everything. Our base timing is pretty good, but variables affect it, ESPECIALLY IATs, which is why he got the kit. We'll start off around 17-18 degrees of timing then it drops to about 16 at 115 IAT, and 14 at 125 IAT. That's on the 93 octane street tune.

On the race tune (109 race fuel) it'll hold timing till about 150 IAT then start to drop from 17 or so down to 15 and stay pretty steady.

His IATs are hitting about 180 at the end of the mile, and that's with 85 degree ambient temps.

Our tuner is super conservative, but I know a thing or two about this stuff and may make some adjustments to his tune on the fly.

 

No problem. So the timing is fixed and it doesn't adjust it on the fly? That is good and bad. Good since you know what the timing is at any given time. Bad since it will need more tuning for the meth to work at it's best. He is using the stock ECU with some kind of tuner I assume?

So the IAT's play a large role in timing, sucks he is not seeing a drop in temps. See what happens with a larger nozzle, he may see some drops in IAT yet but it will never be as much as if he could inject it after the intercooler.

A tip for getting the most possible out of the setup would be to bring a garden sprayer along and spray down the IC heat exchanger a few mins before his run and let the fluid circulate to get it as cool as possible. Won't help a lot but every little bit helps, old drag racer/Dyno trick. Ice in the resivor also works great if that is possible.

With retuning I think he will make more overall power injecting it as is though before the SC since it does make it more efficient.

Is he running race gas already? What are the timing numbers like bone stock NA out of curiosity?

The race gas tune sounds like a good base for the meth injection tune once he has a properly sized nozzle. With the proper nozzle setup (since you won't have a lot of time, I would get a 14gph if possible and the largest AEM nozzle to start with and work down from there, better off with too much then too little).

The knock sensor on your cars are reliable and trustworthy? If so watch the knock readings and see what happens with the meth. My guess is you see a drastic drop in knock readings and are thus able to add a fair amount more timing and/or lean it out.

Water/Meth is amazingly good at preventing knock in my experience. In my MR2 the knock sensor would be all over the place on pump gas on a conservative tune but turn on the meth and it would go almost silent instantly. Even retuned with more timing and leaner mix the knock readings were still way less then on pump gas alone all the while making a lot more power at the same boost.

Here is a back to back on my MR2 at the same basic boost level with and without meth injection. 30whp gains and FAR safer for the motor = WIN. Never got to turn the boost up past 14psi to see what it could do with the 25psi+ I planned on running.



This dyno also shows the inconsistency of the AEM controller I was talking about, that rich spot was due to the controller.

 

The timing adjusts itself, but it's based on a specific variable table and the tuners can control it. Also, the knock sensors are UBER sensitive so ours are dialed back a tad. The VVT, blower, forged motor parts, and all that cause noise that sets them off. His knock sensors showed about the same noise with and without meth which didn't surprise me one bit on that car.

Yes he will be running MS109 race fuel along with the meth. We don't wanna rely on the meth alone, $65 a can is cheap insurance.

Our motors are professionally built by NASCAR engine builders. They're awesome setups, forged everything, and built specifically for boost and good for 1000HP so we don't worry too much about that. They even warranty them for 3yr/36K miles even if we race them, so again no worries.

We're just trying to get the IATs lower to keep that timing up. If it's not gonna do that, then I will go with an ice box for the intercooler over meth.

I'm gonna see if he can get the 14GPH nozzle before the mile and see how it does.

We have FULL data log capability.

 

Yeah, I am not sure what will happen with the IAT's read by the sensor. On my MR2 My IAT's were about the same as his car. ~160-180 without meth. With the meth turned on they would drop down to 10-20 degrees below ambient (~80 degrees in 100 degree weather).

But I was also injecting after the IC so different rules apply.

Too bad the knock sensors are not more useable, I had the same issues on some other cars as well.

If you can adjust the timing manually, I would manually add in a few degrees, and/or "zero out" the IAT map so that it doesn't start pulling timing until say 185f. With the combo of race gas and meth injection I would have no worries at all of knock due to the high IAT.

Best thing would be to put it on the dyno for the tuning but obviously too late for that. Meth/water loves timing that much I know for sure.

 

We can make some minor adjustments with the hand held tool that we use to load tunes in the car, but I don't get access to the IAT modifier map with it. I can add or take away fuel, and I think add or take away timing. He's gonna make a fun first thing Friday and we'll see how it does and if he's comfortable with me making adjustments I'll work on it.

I'll let you know how he does. I'm anxious to see what happens.

 

Ah so no laptop connection, that is too bad. How does it datalog them?

You will need to take out some fuel for sure if you get a bigger nozzle, with a properly sized nozzle your AFR's should richen up by about 1-1.5afr points. Each AFR point is approx 7% of your fuel flow FYI, so you would need to remove that much fuel to get back to the prior AFR. I would try adding in some timing as well and see how it likes it, my guess is it likes it a lot.

I am also curious how he does.

 

No, the tool will connect to a laptop, and is actually VERY slick, you just have to buy their $2500 tuning software package to get full tuning capability. The tool on it's own will just do "quick adjust" type stuff.

I have a video of the tool on my website showing how to set it up to read AFR and all that. It's about the size of a GPS has dual 1Ghz procs, a gig of onboard memory, and hooks to the OBDII system to read the cars PIDs and has an external analog input for the AFR.

It's actually very cool, the company that makes it is just snooty about their CMR software so mostly only shops have it.

The tool is a Diablosport Trinity.

 

I have used this type of tuning before but I usually go with the free/cheaper methods so I can do the tuning myself. I really wish we had this option on Toyotas.

Watched the video, looks like it is mainly for datalogging. It is a nice tool for that purpose, real slick. Too bad they limit the tuning you can do.

If you can adjust timing and fuel though that is the main things you would want to adjust anyways so you should be good. Remove fuel to bring the AFR back to where it should be and add a few degrees of timing to get the most out of it.

 

Yep that's pretty much what it is, a nice data logger and the "vehicle" to load the tunes in to the car. The tunes are written on a computer with the software, then the tune files copied to this tool to load to the car through the OBDII interface.

I'm now trying to convince my buddy to get bigger nozzles LOL. He's saying he wants to try the 550cc but I'm telling him it's not doing anything. His AFR isn't even changing.

 

If his AFR's are not changing at all then yep 100% the nozzle is far too small OR there is an issue and it is not spraying at all. I would check that it is spraying before doing too much more. Even with that small of a nozzle it should richen you up by ~.1 afr I would think.

You will know you are in the right area nozzle wise when the AFR's richen up closer to 1 afr point. Exact amount will vary car to car and setup to setup.

If he is truly not seeing any change in AFR's at all then first make sure it is working as it should and then get bigger nozzles.

A crude way to see if it is working is to feel or use an IR thermometer to check the temps just past where the nozzle is injecting. They will usually drop noticeably if everything is working as it should. Here is a video example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6bprXFxN4o

That was pure methanol almost so the effect will be a little more noticeable then with 50/50 but you should still feel a drop.

Since he is supercharged you can rev the motor to get it into boost in neutral to get it to inject, doesn't always work since you can only keep it in boost for a second but you can sometimes see the lines shake showing that it is on.

 

Oh and you can show him this calculator which is pretty much spot on what I was suggesting for nozzle size:

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/for...lator-351.html

Says he needs 19.61gph of fluid flow with his specs. Note that the nozzle size rating and the actual flow you get out of it do not always match up. With smaller nozzles you will generally get a little more then they say and less with larger nozzles.

 

My dumb question for the day. How often do/did you guys reset your ECM? Is there a need to do it after making a modification to the map on the URD AIC?

I pretty much have my AFRs right in the 11.5 to 12 range at anything greater than 3.5PSI. But everything sub 2.5PSI (2500 to 3k rpm) continues to lean out to the 13's.

 

I never reset mine unless I was doing something else that needed the battery disconnected.

 

Ok, back from the TX Mile. My buddy set the world record for a Challenger, heck modern Hemi period, in a standing mile event with a speed of 200.9MPH.

The guy with the water meth went 195.1, so he's 2nd fastest in the world.

The water meth was only enrichening his AFR by .5-.6 which is spot on to what you said TA, he needs about double the water/meth and is ordering a 14gph nozzle. We're gonna see if that'll help the IATs any at that point.

However, the nitrous is cooling them by about 30 degrees already so we're not sure if it'll help or not.

 

Nice, glad to hear he had some fun and drove home.

I had not really considered the nitrous cooling effect to be honest and that could explain why he is not seeing much of a drop in temps or my hypothesis could be right.

So he is being richened up by .5 afr? Then that would say he is spraying about half what he needs and that fits in real good with the calculations I ran earlier. Total flow they come out to is around ~1200cc and he is flowing around 550cc now so that is pretty close, nice to see calculations pan out from time to time lol.

I can tell you though that the real gains he would see will come with tuning, lean the AFR's back out to what they were before or even a little leaner and then add in the timing that it wants and he should see some nice gains in power.

Or as another example he could run the race gas tune on the street with 93oct I would bet without much trouble at all, In fact i bet it would even be conservative with the meth system properly setup.

 

Yep, that's the plan.

Well he made one pass with just the meth and the IATs were 30 degrees higher than with the nitrous and meth.

He's getting bigger nozzles.

 

Speedy, how are you displaying both the LC-1 wideband output AND the AIC-T information at the same time on your laptop? Are you using two serial to USB adapters at the same time? My old laptop with a serial port is too slow for this stuff, so I need to go either the serial-to-usb converter route or serial-to-PCMIA on my newer laptop. Any product recommendations are appreciated.

Ken

 

Yeah, I just used two belkin serial to usb adapters. That was a few years ago and the laptop I used was only a 1ghz cpu and 1GB of ram and did fine.