You might be right, i know my 2000 was federal and only had 1 cat and a narrowband sensor. They changed a lot of the electronics in 2001 so that would make sense.

 

It's fun going back and looking through this thread. It's kind of like a time capsule.

Well, finally broke down and replaced my O2 sensor that was throwing the random CEL. I checked it with an ohm meter and the heater circuit was bad.

Maybe it's my imagination, but I swear the truck runs much better with the new Denso O2 sensor. I got P/N 234-9002 from Amazon for $96 shipped.

I didn't realize until swapping it that it was a wide band sensor. I programmed my ScangaugeII to read AFR and it exactly matches my LC-1 Wideband. Fun stuff.

I've had this 4Runner about 10 years. The only things I've had to replace are fluids, battery, power antennae, and now the O2 sensor.

Not bad.

 

Good to hear it is still running good, got to love toyota quality.

Now just toss a meth injection kit on there and you will really fall in love, your Challenger could use some meth as well, could use the 4runner as a test bed to see how you like it.

My truck was fun with the 7th but it really woke up with the meth injection. For the price hard to beat the performance gains.

 

I actually called a performance shop to order a meth kit for the Challenger. He sells all the big ones, it was Janetty Racing. I was gonna use it in the Challenger at the track to avoid having to buy $8/gallon race fuel.

After talking to the guy he didn't recommend them. Kinda surprised me since he was basically throwing away a sale. He said he'd never seen one kit not fail at some point, and since I'd be using it at the track I didn't wanna risk blowing my built motor.

$8/gal fuel it is for me it seems.

New PB in the Challenger BTW



Video on my website.

 

I know those guys, Don't take their word as law. They are old school and very closed off to new ideas in my experience. They do the old ideas with the best of them though, his son holds the record for the fastest MR2 right now.

Lets just say that while I have a LOT of respect for them and would defer to them all day long when it comes to chassis setup. We have had many heated debates over how to make the best power on the other hand.

The old school meth kits were pledged with reliability issues, parts were not 100% meth compatible, ect. Lots of little issues that have been getting better for the last decade and really made big strides in the last 3 years.

Of all the modern kits I have used, I have not had a single problem that I didn't create. I fully trust them when installed properly. That is where 90% of the issues come from, improper install.

The other 9% are issues that are easily detectable by just testing the system while checking the oil and making sure everything is working as it should. Something you should do anyways to any modded car.

A good failsafe will go a log ways to making sure that you don't have any problems. If you do have a problem it will take action to save your motor (how depends on the exact cars setup but lots of options).

I can go on for hours on the subject of meth injection and will if there is anything you want to know but don't want to clutter your thread if you already know it.

In the end I am 100% a believer in meth injection from my personal experience and run it on all my cars and see myself using it on all the cars I will get.

I would highly recommend you getting a kit for your 4runner if you are unsure and using that as a test bed to get a feel for it. Then you can decide after seeing how it works on the 4runner if you want to do the same for the Challenger. I am sure you will.

Any questions feel free to ask.

Good pass, It looks like you are still having some traction issues off the line but with a big heavy car like that a 1.7x 60ft is still not bad at all. Are you still on radials or have you moved on to slicks yet?

 

Just watched some of your youtube vids. Nice work!

I have a question. I recently hooked up my Scangauge II and I'm curious what kind of timing you were seeing, before the meth injection.

Mine's a bit lower than I would have expected, but still made 240RWHP on the dyno. I know timing = power, so I'm wondering if I add a degree or two.....

 

Thanks, I really wish I had got some videos after the transmission mods, it was a whole new animal after that, 100% happy with the valve body/High stall converter.

I do have all of that and a lot more logged, I tested all sorts of things with the meth injection, anything you want to know just ask.

Before the meth injection with only the 7th injector my timing would sit in the low teens at WOT. Little lower in the summer and higher in the winter.

After the meth injection timing was at stock levels in the low 20's. Once I got the tune dialed in it got better as well.

Something to keep in mind is that the actual timing will be the same regardless of what you set in the URD box. The ECU advances timing to the knock threshold and then backs it off over and over again. So adding/removing timing there doesn't effect much in my experience. It is mainly for the sub 3k rpm range before the knock sensor is active.

After adding meth injection it should bump your timing up a lot automatically, I would zero the timing map out anyways though.

Now that I pulled the supercharger off to get my turbo setup underway and am running NA again I was testing timing and timing NA was around 22 degrees on plain 87oct and around 24 degrees with meth injection showing that it is not near as knock limited in NA form and also that it was running the same timing with a 2.0 pulley and meth injection as stock NA.

I ran all sorts of test such as water vs methanol as well. The end conclusion is that meth/water injection is amazing! Which is why it has been a pet project of mine for a few years now. Anything else you want to know just ask.

Oh and I improved the meth injection install a few weeks ago to make it a lot cleaner since those videos. Mounted the pump by the washer fluid tank behind the bumper, fits perfect and it is in a better position as well.

 

Well, from what I'm understanding, the spark advance (ignition advance), we're seeing in the logs is not actual timing. You then subtract the timing you're pulling in the URD AIC-T. I was seeing 15 on my Scangauge II today at around 3500 RPMs, but then I looked at my tune when I got home and noticed that at 3500 RPMs and 10psi (what I see on mine) my AIC-T tune is set to 5 in that cell, so that means actual timing is like 10-11 which seems REALLY low compared to what I've seen on my Challenger.

The 3.4L motor is like 9.6:1 compression, so it does well under boost and should be able to handle a bit of timing.

 

Yep, exactly right. And you are spot on, your timing would be around 10-11 degrees. Which is about right really, I have headers which makes me a little less knock prone all else being equal.

The only way to add timing to the 4runner is to add octane, the ECU will override any timing changes you make above 3k.

If you were to add a ~10gph nozzle of methanol to the 4runner I am guessing your actual timing would end up around ~20 degrees and trust me, you WILL notice the difference.

The Challenger motor is not a direct comparison being a push-rod 2 valve motor vs a modern DOHC 4 valve motor. The DOHC motors run less timing to start with due to a more efficient combustion chamber design. That said you are leaving a fair amount of power on the table due to lack of octane.

 

OK cool. Thanks for the info.

 

No problem, if you decide to try a meth kit I recommend the coolingmist kit for our trucks. I love mine. Aquamist and devilsown are also good brands.

 

Something has to be telling the truck to pull the timing though right? I was at about 19 degrees stock. So what's telling it to only run 15 according to the Scangauge?

Seems like I'm losing 4 degrees somewhere.

 

The knock sensor is what is telling it to not run anymore timing.

In a nut shell the stock ECU over 3000rpm determines timing not by a "map" but by when it hears knock via the knock sensors.

It has a preset threshold of what it considers knock. The ECU will constantly raise timing until it triggers that threshold, it will then back timing off untill it is below the threshold again. It then repeats this over and over hundreds of times a second.

Adjusting the timing on the FTC box will have virtually no effect on actual timing above 3000rpm since the ECU doesn't care what the number is, it only cares about that knock threshold.

The only way to get it to run more timing is to make the motor less knock prone so it can run more timing before hitting the knock threshold. With a supercharger this is basically adding octane.

Race gas will have a similar effect but meth injection will work better.

 

Ok cool, that's interesting. I was thinking with 93 octane it wouldn't be pulling 5 degrees but maybe so at 10psi.

I'm working a bit on my timing map now to remove a bit of the retard I have programmed in to the AIC-T. I'm gonna see if I can get it to run one more degree.

 

Yeah, it doesn't really have a timing "number" it is "aiming" for. It just runs what the knock sensor says it can. Your are actually running ~10 degrees, the ECU doesn't know or care what the number is, only when the knock threshold is tripped. Just so happens that the old adage of 1 degree retard per psi of boost is more or less holding true in your case, not 100% by any means but it is a good rule of thumb.

The 93oct is letting it run as much timing as it is now. Got to remember it is a non-intercooled supercharger spitting 10psi of ~250-300degree air into the motor. That makes things VERY knock prone.

I tested adding/removing timing on the FTC myself, from my testing no matter what I put into the FTC, after doing the math the actual timing ended up the same +/-~1 degree. The butt dyno agreed that no difference could be felt.

Talked to Gadget about it as well and he confirmed that the stock ECU will run whatever timing it wants no matter what you do to it above 3k. this goes for adding or removing timing. He also said that the knock sensors are a bit sensitive but no way to override it easily.

The timing retard on the FTC is mainly for the sub 3k rpm area where the ECU doesn't pay attention to the knock sensor.

 

Gotcha, and thanks for the info. Makes sense if the knock sensors are picky.

No wonder meth injection makes such a big difference. Adding 5 degrees if timing is good for quite a few horses, plus the added benefit of the cooler charge.

I picked up a 370Z three weeks ago. I'm planning to take it to the track soon to see what it'll do. 3300 lbs and 332 horses should make for a decent time. Bonus - my drag radials and race wheels for the Challenger will fit !

 

Yep, it will make a very noticeable difference for sure. In my case it added almost 10 degrees of timing, lowered the intake temps a lot (just looking at the outside temps of the SC they were dropping a LOT), it also makes the supercharger more efficient so more gains there.

I would say that I gained ~15-20hp with the meth injection which is hard to beat on a dollar to HP basis. Gas mileage improved as well, enough to basically pay for the methanol used.

Oddly my gas mileage dropped a lot now that I am back to NA.

The 370z is nice, what the 350z should have been from the start. Personally I would have got a 5.0 mustang over it, out handles and out powers it by quite a bit and costs less to boot. My biggest issue with them is the lack of power adder options for them and the cost of the few their are but still a very nice car and lots of fun. You should be well into the 13's stock with it.

 

It was actually between the Z and a 5.0 Mustang. Honestly, I wasn't impressed with the 5.0 like I thought I'd be. I also drove a GT500 and it was awesome, but not really a daily driver which is what I bought the Z to be.

The Z is very quick and handles like a go kart. My goals are somewhere in the 12s for it. I don't plan to do too much to it, I've got too many modified cars already LOL

 

Interesting, everyone that I have heard that drove both said the mustang came out ahead. They do have a completely different driving feel though that is for sure. The 370 is a bit sharper where the mustang is faster. I prefer the mustang style personally for most things but then I am a speed before pretty much anything else kinda guy lol.

Either way it is a fun car and I am sure you will get a lot of enjoyment out of it.

12's would be pretty impressive for stock but possible with radials and a great run I think. The 5.0 runs mid-low 12's stock on radials , sorry just had to toss that in there.

 

Great thread!!