3rz oil pressure problems
11-02-2013, 06:06 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
3rz oil pressure problems
The motor starts and runs fine, the problem is my mechanical gauge on the pillar reads 0 at idle and only about 20 at 3500.
the idiot light never comes on but i have never trusted it which is why i have a mechanical gauge in the cab. when i pulled the valve cover and spark plugs out to turn in over and see if the top end was getting oil there was some oil being brought up but it had no pressure behind it and the volume of oil supplied to the E1 exhaust cam bearing was not even sufficient to lubricate that one journal let alone the other four that are relying on oil out of that passage. The pump, the by-pass valve, springs and retainer are all new toyota parts installed when i rebuild the motor. its been 0 miles since the rebuild. and after initial problems with dying pressure on start up i drained the 5W30 and the motor now has 20w50 in it which still does not give suffcient pressure when it should be blowing every seal in that motor out on ignition.
How can i diagnose where the hell my oil is either leaking or where the clog is? Any ideas?
Guys i need serious help with this one its got me seriously thinking about just scrapping out this truck. First lets start with some background the truck was shut down about a year and a half ago it needed new rings badly but other than that the motor was flawless at 205xxx. I knew it was coming up and bought a 2RZ to swap in while i was rebuilding the 3RZ checked the bearings new oil pump and timing chain and new seals top to bottom. when i swapped that in and got it running it had oil pressure that was at the bottom end of the operating range but still in specs. within 10 miles of driving the pressure bled off and no matter what i tried there was no pressure. in less then 40 miles it scrapped out the head. i figured the bearings in the bottom end may have been too loose and i just read them wrong when i checked them so i focused on rebuilding the 3RZ i put in all new toyota bearings for both the rods and mains after i figures out how to decipher the bearing spec numbers. with new bottom end bearings, and new rings i figured go ahead and replace the oil pump, bypass valve, timing chain, delete the balance shafts and put in all new seals. following LCengineerings instructions i drilled and tapped the oil passage and since i have the bearing installer i took the balance shaft bearings out turned them 180degrees and re installed them to block off the oil passages. after that the bottom end was put together the head was decked to flatten in back out and the motor was put back together and installed. Now again i am having the same nightmare on oil pressure as i did with the first motor only i know there are no bearing issues the clearances are .001" on every bearing in the bottom end. i cant figure where i am losing the oil pressure that should be making its way to the head.
The truck has been down for a year and a half now and i am seriously losing my mind over this ˟˟˟˟.
the idiot light never comes on but i have never trusted it which is why i have a mechanical gauge in the cab. when i pulled the valve cover and spark plugs out to turn in over and see if the top end was getting oil there was some oil being brought up but it had no pressure behind it and the volume of oil supplied to the E1 exhaust cam bearing was not even sufficient to lubricate that one journal let alone the other four that are relying on oil out of that passage. The pump, the by-pass valve, springs and retainer are all new toyota parts installed when i rebuild the motor. its been 0 miles since the rebuild. and after initial problems with dying pressure on start up i drained the 5W30 and the motor now has 20w50 in it which still does not give suffcient pressure when it should be blowing every seal in that motor out on ignition.How can i diagnose where the hell my oil is either leaking or where the clog is? Any ideas?
Guys i need serious help with this one its got me seriously thinking about just scrapping out this truck. First lets start with some background the truck was shut down about a year and a half ago it needed new rings badly but other than that the motor was flawless at 205xxx. I knew it was coming up and bought a 2RZ to swap in while i was rebuilding the 3RZ checked the bearings new oil pump and timing chain and new seals top to bottom. when i swapped that in and got it running it had oil pressure that was at the bottom end of the operating range but still in specs. within 10 miles of driving the pressure bled off and no matter what i tried there was no pressure. in less then 40 miles it scrapped out the head. i figured the bearings in the bottom end may have been too loose and i just read them wrong when i checked them so i focused on rebuilding the 3RZ i put in all new toyota bearings for both the rods and mains after i figures out how to decipher the bearing spec numbers. with new bottom end bearings, and new rings i figured go ahead and replace the oil pump, bypass valve, timing chain, delete the balance shafts and put in all new seals. following LCengineerings instructions i drilled and tapped the oil passage and since i have the bearing installer i took the balance shaft bearings out turned them 180degrees and re installed them to block off the oil passages. after that the bottom end was put together the head was decked to flatten in back out and the motor was put back together and installed. Now again i am having the same nightmare on oil pressure as i did with the first motor only i know there are no bearing issues the clearances are .001" on every bearing in the bottom end. i cant figure where i am losing the oil pressure that should be making its way to the head.
The truck has been down for a year and a half now and i am seriously losing my mind over this ˟˟˟˟.
11-02-2013, 07:52 PM
#3
Registered User
I dont think the balance shaft idea was a good one. Theres a reason it's there. First I actually heard of it. Whats the reason for doing it?
Pretty brave doing that and messing with the oiling system.
Pretty brave doing that and messing with the oiling system.
11-03-2013, 08:30 AM
#4
I'm not the OP, but when I rebuilt my 3rz I researched into this, since the rear balance shaft bearing is usually the 1st thing starved of oil if run low or not changed regularly. The idea is to remove the balance shaft and chain to free up some power (it's a pretty minimal gain), but in order to do that you must remove the balance shaft bearings and reinstall them so that the bearing covers/seals the hole where the oil is fed to the bearing. There are other (LCE) balance shaft delete kits, but they just the same thing.
OP, I'm wondering if you probably don't have a balance shaft bearing not quite sealing the feed passage. Or an oil pump housing out of spec. Since I'm assuming everything else is up to OE specs...
OP, I'm wondering if you probably don't have a balance shaft bearing not quite sealing the feed passage. Or an oil pump housing out of spec. Since I'm assuming everything else is up to OE specs...
11-03-2013, 08:57 AM
#5
Registered User
Thread Starter
Well i am not ruling out that there could be an issue with the bypass valve or pump clearances however they are both new factory parts and were soaked in clean oil prior to installation as recommended in the factory installation sheets. I may have gotten a few bad parts i guess.
11-03-2013, 09:06 AM
#6
Registered User
Thread Starter
Yes the bottom end bearings are on the tight end of specs, i am wondering about the bearings being loose or not set in right.
For those wondering why i deleted the balance shafts since i had the block stripped for cleaning and it was actually easier for me to remove them than reinstall them. they are perfectly fine if i really needed to i could install all four balance shaft bearings and put them back in although i would be leery of the timing chain and guides used for their separate timing system being tired and risking goin out on me after 200k.
For those wondering why i deleted the balance shafts since i had the block stripped for cleaning and it was actually easier for me to remove them than reinstall them. they are perfectly fine if i really needed to i could install all four balance shaft bearings and put them back in although i would be leery of the timing chain and guides used for their separate timing system being tired and risking goin out on me after 200k.
11-03-2013, 09:14 AM
#7
Registered User
Ok. I see now. Not something I would do. Sounds kinda like a race only kinda thing.
The diagnosis is really tricky now though because of this situation.
I hope you find an easy fix and it involves minimal $ and time.
My 01 Tacoma has the 3rz. 165k. Runs like a top. Only thing I have ever heard of it sometimes the valves need adjustment, and its a shim type adjustment. Mine is really quiet. Great little motor. Fromwhat I understand, they took the good from a 22re and just made it better.
I guess if LC makes a delete kit for the 3rz shafts...it cant be too bad to do for the motor...but then I keep thinking...some engineer did that for a reason. Reason I guess would be harmonic vibration dampening?
The diagnosis is really tricky now though because of this situation.
I hope you find an easy fix and it involves minimal $ and time.
My 01 Tacoma has the 3rz. 165k. Runs like a top. Only thing I have ever heard of it sometimes the valves need adjustment, and its a shim type adjustment. Mine is really quiet. Great little motor. Fromwhat I understand, they took the good from a 22re and just made it better.
I guess if LC makes a delete kit for the 3rz shafts...it cant be too bad to do for the motor...but then I keep thinking...some engineer did that for a reason. Reason I guess would be harmonic vibration dampening?
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11-03-2013, 05:20 PM
#8
The biggest reason I have found for the balance shaft was to smooth the way it feels at idle. Being that the 3rz is essentially a stroked 2rz, it became a little "lopey" at idle. Which caused the engine rock a bit. And being stroked, it could possibly vibrate at any rpm. Which it technically still does, just the balance shaft counters it... And wussy customers expecting a cushy ride don't want a lumpy idle...
The delete kit is fine to use if done properly. And either spend a little to have everything balanced internally, or expect a little vibration ocassionally.
The delete kit is fine to use if done properly. And either spend a little to have everything balanced internally, or expect a little vibration ocassionally.
12-04-2013, 03:04 PM
#9
Registered User
Thread Starter
Ok, finally got the time to work thru and figure this oil pressure problem out. First thing i did was try to diagnose if i had a clog, a bad pump, or an open passage some somewhere in the system.
Before starting on the project i tried to figure out how the oil is routed through the motor, from the pickup oil goes thru the pump down the passenger side of the block to the oil filter, once thru the oil filter the oil travels thru inside the threaded fitting into a manifold like passage just above the passenger side balance shaft this passage feeds the oil pressure sensor, main bearings and also feeds into the passages that feed both balance shafts and the timing chain oiling system. from there it lubes the front balance shaft bearing while also pressurizing a passage in the balance shafts themselves to lubricate the rear bearings. somewhere inside one of the webs on the passenger side of the block near the #1 cylinder there is a small passage about 1/8th inch in diameter that feeds the entire cylinder head thru an oval shaped opening on the bottom of the cylinder head and from there it goes to the front two cam journals and the rest of the cam bearings are fed thru a passage that goes down the length of the cams.
Once i figured this oil routing out i decided to take the oil pump out of the circuit by using an electric grey water pump from harbor freight and a few an fittings from the local parker store to adapt the pump to the oil filter mounting threads. my initial test was to see if the system would build pressure given another pump. to do this i simply pulled the drain plug out of the oil pan put the pump pickup in the catch can and turned on the pump. When the pump was turned on i had no pressure on the manual gauge hooked in where the oil pressure sensor should have been from the factory. Although i had no pressure on my gauge i noticed that the oil was flowing out of the drain plug as fast as the pump could put it back into the motor. -No pressure -High flow..... must have an open passage somewhere
.
Given that the only internal parts that were not as assembled by the factory were the front balance shaft bearings they are the likely source of my leak.
At this point i knew what had to be done and how to do it. once i got the time i took the timing cover off. For those of you wondering you do not have to remove the head or front diff to pull the timing cover. i will not say it is the easiest thing to deal with but this entire project was done without removing the motor from the frame and removing as little as possible from the truck.
*Helpful Hint - if you are going to remove the timing cover from the motor in the truck and want to avoid as much water contamination as possible there is a 14mm plug threaded into the block near the oil pressure sensor and just behind the a/c compressor pull this plug it will drain the block of as much coolant as possible while in the vehicle. that way when you take the timing cover off it does not flood the oil pan with water from the block.
Once i had the timing cover off i took an pick and felt inside the balance shaft bearings with a pick to see if when i turned them i left a passage open. And sure enough when i rotated ~180 degrees on the passenger side balance shaft bearing i missed the fact that there is a second oil passage to that journal. Only in that journal though the driver side balance shaft only has one oil supply passage.... odd.
Some of you may be saying well why not just buy the $100 kit from LC engineering and not worry about it. i was reluctant to buy that kit because i do not need a bearing installer that i can turn down at home or replace with a socket in a pinch, nor do i need the tap, drill bit and plug when i have the drill tap and can get a plug for $0.35 at a local hardware store. The bearing blanks and oil squirter are nice however hammering in the old bearings in an orientation where the holes do not line up and bending a 2RZ oil squirter will achieve the same goal for under $5 and thats even with a Stealer Ship price of $3.95 for the oil squirter. Now i would not recommend this route for anyone not comfortable bending the small 1/8" tube that is the factory 2RZ oil squirter. All in all the balance shaft delete was done for under $20 and would have worked had i pulled my head out of my rear when i was installing the bearings when i first put it together.
before tearing back into the motor i reluctantly purchased the LCE delete kit, unfortunately they will not sell just a squirter or bearing blanks for anyone wondering. Once apart i found the leaky oil passage in the passenger balance shaft and proceeded to knock the old bearings out and tap the new bearing blanks into place. once installed i debated installing the fancy oil squirter and finally decided that since i had over paid for what i needed any way i may as well put it to use. Once everything was installed i hooked up the harbor freight oil pump back up and put pressure to the system.... and no leaks the pump barely registered a pressure on the gauge however there was no where near the same oil volume going thru the block so i knew the problem was fixed. Now the truck has 80-100 psi at idle cold on 5w30 and once she warms up she holds 15-20 psi at idle which is the same pressure she has had for years on my mechanical gauge.
* for anyone wanting to source their own balance shaft bearing blanks to do a delete the outside diameter of the blanks measures 1.661"
Before starting on the project i tried to figure out how the oil is routed through the motor, from the pickup oil goes thru the pump down the passenger side of the block to the oil filter, once thru the oil filter the oil travels thru inside the threaded fitting into a manifold like passage just above the passenger side balance shaft this passage feeds the oil pressure sensor, main bearings and also feeds into the passages that feed both balance shafts and the timing chain oiling system. from there it lubes the front balance shaft bearing while also pressurizing a passage in the balance shafts themselves to lubricate the rear bearings. somewhere inside one of the webs on the passenger side of the block near the #1 cylinder there is a small passage about 1/8th inch in diameter that feeds the entire cylinder head thru an oval shaped opening on the bottom of the cylinder head and from there it goes to the front two cam journals and the rest of the cam bearings are fed thru a passage that goes down the length of the cams.
Once i figured this oil routing out i decided to take the oil pump out of the circuit by using an electric grey water pump from harbor freight and a few an fittings from the local parker store to adapt the pump to the oil filter mounting threads. my initial test was to see if the system would build pressure given another pump. to do this i simply pulled the drain plug out of the oil pan put the pump pickup in the catch can and turned on the pump. When the pump was turned on i had no pressure on the manual gauge hooked in where the oil pressure sensor should have been from the factory. Although i had no pressure on my gauge i noticed that the oil was flowing out of the drain plug as fast as the pump could put it back into the motor. -No pressure -High flow..... must have an open passage somewhere
. Given that the only internal parts that were not as assembled by the factory were the front balance shaft bearings they are the likely source of my leak.
At this point i knew what had to be done and how to do it. once i got the time i took the timing cover off. For those of you wondering you do not have to remove the head or front diff to pull the timing cover. i will not say it is the easiest thing to deal with but this entire project was done without removing the motor from the frame and removing as little as possible from the truck.
*Helpful Hint - if you are going to remove the timing cover from the motor in the truck and want to avoid as much water contamination as possible there is a 14mm plug threaded into the block near the oil pressure sensor and just behind the a/c compressor pull this plug it will drain the block of as much coolant as possible while in the vehicle. that way when you take the timing cover off it does not flood the oil pan with water from the block.
Once i had the timing cover off i took an pick and felt inside the balance shaft bearings with a pick to see if when i turned them i left a passage open. And sure enough when i rotated ~180 degrees on the passenger side balance shaft bearing i missed the fact that there is a second oil passage to that journal. Only in that journal though the driver side balance shaft only has one oil supply passage.... odd.
Some of you may be saying well why not just buy the $100 kit from LC engineering and not worry about it. i was reluctant to buy that kit because i do not need a bearing installer that i can turn down at home or replace with a socket in a pinch, nor do i need the tap, drill bit and plug when i have the drill tap and can get a plug for $0.35 at a local hardware store. The bearing blanks and oil squirter are nice however hammering in the old bearings in an orientation where the holes do not line up and bending a 2RZ oil squirter will achieve the same goal for under $5 and thats even with a Stealer Ship price of $3.95 for the oil squirter. Now i would not recommend this route for anyone not comfortable bending the small 1/8" tube that is the factory 2RZ oil squirter. All in all the balance shaft delete was done for under $20 and would have worked had i pulled my head out of my rear when i was installing the bearings when i first put it together.
before tearing back into the motor i reluctantly purchased the LCE delete kit, unfortunately they will not sell just a squirter or bearing blanks for anyone wondering. Once apart i found the leaky oil passage in the passenger balance shaft and proceeded to knock the old bearings out and tap the new bearing blanks into place. once installed i debated installing the fancy oil squirter and finally decided that since i had over paid for what i needed any way i may as well put it to use. Once everything was installed i hooked up the harbor freight oil pump back up and put pressure to the system.... and no leaks the pump barely registered a pressure on the gauge however there was no where near the same oil volume going thru the block so i knew the problem was fixed. Now the truck has 80-100 psi at idle cold on 5w30 and once she warms up she holds 15-20 psi at idle which is the same pressure she has had for years on my mechanical gauge.
* for anyone wanting to source their own balance shaft bearing blanks to do a delete the outside diameter of the blanks measures 1.661"
12-04-2013, 03:43 PM
#10
Registered User
Glad you got it figured out. Interested to hear how it holds up without the shaft.
So now its all done and fixed...are you happy you accomplished the shaft delete...or do you wish you would have left it alone and been down the road sooner?
So now its all done and fixed...are you happy you accomplished the shaft delete...or do you wish you would have left it alone and been down the road sooner?
12-04-2013, 04:46 PM
#11
Registered User
Thread Starter
I am glad the motor i running again after the break in period and i get a chance to go out and kick up some dust then i will have to let you know if it was worth it.
12-04-2013, 04:55 PM
#12
Registered User
Sweet. Not alot of 3rz stuff happens here. Cant help but look forward to more.
Is there a build thread on this motor anywhere? like with pictures and stuff?
Is there a build thread on this motor anywhere? like with pictures and stuff?
12-21-2013, 07:53 PM
#13
Registered User
Thread Starter
No there is no thread or pictures of building the motor i honestly didn't think of stopping to document any of it i just wanted the truck running again. The motor now has a little over 100 miles on it and has great oil pressure, no leaks, and no over heating problems. There are a few small things that concern me though, initial start up when the truck is cold there is a tick coming from the rear of the cylinder head, sounds like the cams are dry on start up. I am concerned that even just starting the motor before finding this oil pressure problem may have toasted out another head and set of cams. Also seeing as how every thing has gone out at once i now have a catalyst efficiency below threshold code in my computer telling me that the cat has gone out. not too long ago i put two O2 sensors in it to fix the heater circuit failure code then this.... ah oh well i guess the truck just waited to get all new parts at once. Also i dont know if its the fact that i am not done breaking in the motor or whats going on but i have mass amounts of positive crank case pressure, to the point where if i open my oil cap a mist of oil slowly sprays on to the back passenger side of the motor compartment.... cant figure that one out for the life of me. I know the rings were installed properly i followed the instructions to a t and double checked every ring gap along with their alignment.
01-25-2014, 06:13 PM
#14
Registered User
Thread Starter
UPDATE:
Ah where to start.....currently this motor is pulled back out of the truck. Even though the truck only ran for a matter of a minute or so with low oil pressure it has claimed all bearing surfaced in the motor. The cylinder heard picked up pressure and did well for the first 100 miles of break in after the first 100 miles i decided to set the piston rings and start loading the engine and as soon as the engine was put under load it started ticking. Very bad sign, so i shut it down and looked into what is goin on now, it still had oil pressure in the normal range however when i opened up the cam journals they were tore up the oil was looking like metallic paint and then when i decided to pull the rods and mains to see if they incurred any damage i found bearings that looked like they had been hit with a wire brush. The crank now has to be turned and not only do the bottom end bearings have to be replaced but also the head has to be replaced. So i guess i dont get my truck back for a while longer yet.
I want to put it out there that during all these oil pressure problems i never once had the idiot light come on, not once. I have checked to see if the factory pressure sensor had malfunctioned and it is still functioning perfectly. So if the idiot light does ever come on the motor must be about locked up or completely out of oil. So my advice to anyone with or looking into getting one of these trucks put a pressure gauge on it DO Not rely on the dummy light by the time that comes on its long past too late.
Ah where to start.....currently this motor is pulled back out of the truck. Even though the truck only ran for a matter of a minute or so with low oil pressure it has claimed all bearing surfaced in the motor. The cylinder heard picked up pressure and did well for the first 100 miles of break in after the first 100 miles i decided to set the piston rings and start loading the engine and as soon as the engine was put under load it started ticking. Very bad sign, so i shut it down and looked into what is goin on now, it still had oil pressure in the normal range however when i opened up the cam journals they were tore up the oil was looking like metallic paint and then when i decided to pull the rods and mains to see if they incurred any damage i found bearings that looked like they had been hit with a wire brush. The crank now has to be turned and not only do the bottom end bearings have to be replaced but also the head has to be replaced. So i guess i dont get my truck back for a while longer yet.
I want to put it out there that during all these oil pressure problems i never once had the idiot light come on, not once. I have checked to see if the factory pressure sensor had malfunctioned and it is still functioning perfectly. So if the idiot light does ever come on the motor must be about locked up or completely out of oil. So my advice to anyone with or looking into getting one of these trucks put a pressure gauge on it DO Not rely on the dummy light by the time that comes on its long past too late.
01-27-2014, 02:55 AM
#15
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Wow....you seem to have found the lemon 3rz out of all ever made. I read through your thread and I would most definitely like to be around for this. Best of luck this time around. I have 245k on my engine and just did the valves (probably the first time) bit everything looked great except #4. There was a little roasted oil on the valve cover but there isn't any misfiring going on.
How did the engine feel as far as without the balance shafts? I was just curious as there have been some heated arguments over it on other forums.
Beamed from my dumb phone using Yotatech
How did the engine feel as far as without the balance shafts? I was just curious as there have been some heated arguments over it on other forums.
Beamed from my dumb phone using Yotatech
01-28-2014, 05:11 PM
#16
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Thread Starter
Honestly i noticed no difference at idle i didn't get spinning much past 3000 but the motor didn't seem any different to me without them. It wasn't a lemon until 205xxx when the rings finally went out. maybe this can be credited to bad luck or maybe i dont know what i am doing, i feel i have a pretty good grasp on this but then again i am using a chilton's manual so maybe my information source is sketchy.
01-29-2014, 05:28 AM
#17
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It could be summed up to bad luck. If you're in need of advice though I would give either paradise racing or LC Engineering a call. Both those companies know and love the 3rz because they race them. I know for a fact lc engineering will help as I have gotten advice from them in the past when I had a quick question. You're going to get a sales pitch but you can't blame them for that lol.
Beamed from my dumb phone using Yotatech
Beamed from my dumb phone using Yotatech
01-29-2014, 04:23 PM
#18
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Thread Starter
Yea most of the guys out at LC are very good about knowing whats goin on in these motors i get alot of parts from them but they do have a few people that simply work in the office and give the impression that they have know clue if its outside their computer screen. Paradise racing i have not had as much luck with between a time difference and some sort of miscommunication on the one order i made with them i have been less pleased with Paradise.
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