vang_22re

lets get it started. first off i got a 92 toyota pickup. just did a fresh rebuild but ran into some troubles. there was a huge amount of blue smoke after about 200 miles on the engine. theres smoke when reving the engine at about 3000 rpm. when driving on the highway its ok until i let off gas then you can see smoke coming out the tail pipe. i was disgusting the topic over at the "what did you do to your rig today" and some of the yotatech-ers told me to start a build thread that way ill get more input.

the head took a dump on me so i pulled another head from the wrecking yard. took it into the machine shop to get it check and surface, changed the valve stem seals and decided to do the bottom end since it was already half ways apart. i did the main bearing, rod bearing and piston rings.

i pulled the motor again today but it got dark and put it aside till tomorrow

so let me get your guy's .02 cents on this. what do you guys think the problem can also be?

RMP8080

Vang, any strange noises from the motor, mine the mains went, got another 22R, than change my mind and will put in a V6 4.3. My problem was the 22R sat in a barn for 12 years. 22R is a great motor but with 35" tires I will need the extra power. Oh, I worked on chevy's V6 and V8 before not any Toyota motor. Would like to get a diesel maybe some day
Best of luck with the build.....

Outsane

Not sure but good luck

vang_22re

no main bearing noises at all just smoke haha but v6 4.3 does sound like. good idea my cousin has one he just tooken out his runner to put a 3.0 3vz in but that would be a pain cause California has smog good luck with the swap amd let us know how it goes

vang_22re

thanks bud

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hey bud, ..... Good to see you starting a troubleshooting thread/build thread(One will turn into the other, anyhow,......they ALWAYS/most often/usually/do! hahaha.)... Yes, I'm aware that I began in your build with incredible oxymoron's! lol. Levity is key in these gremlin hunts, right? lol.

OK<> So, we've covered quite a bit, already.... Might wanna drag some of it over here from the "What did you do to your rig today" thread, eh? .....>>>>

Posted by VANG 22RE;

"Ok here's the scoop. I drove it hard like tinman said. On the freeway in fourth gear at 3500 rpm, I shift gears and ease off the gas pedal to the point I didn't have to step on it. There was major blue smoke coming out the pipe. I gas it and MORE smoke came out but suddenly went away. As I was pulling to my exit I gave it another 3500 rpm in fourth gear and let go of the gas and a pop (back fire) black smoke this time. So yeah I think im just gona pull the motor and do it again
O yea, I parked my car and gave it some throttle....a lot of blue smoke came out that was when I decided to just redo the motor"

Posted by TINMAN;

"That much blue smoke makes me think something in the valve seals/guides. If your going to tear it down again at this point, maybe just do it a step at a time, and investigate while your tearing it down.
A lot of people will not agree with me on this. And do it at your own risk. But I instal my pistons into the cylinders dry. I put just a little motor on the ring compressor. Then I'll wipe down the cylinder walls with a rag while I'm rotating the engine. No solvents on the rag, just wipe down each one with a clean rag......Good luck"

Posted by Chefyota4x4;

"I agree with TinMan....I did mine with a LIL oil in the walls, couple times, then wipe it down, then carefully/quickly install the pistons/rings. This metal soaks up a bit of that oil right away, and they don't need to be 'SOAKED' in oil to be inserted. My machinist uses a SUPER fine mist of oil on each piston-outer portion of the rings, and just a tiny bit, then wipes down the walls very thoroughly before inserting.... So that's what I did... Then continue to wipe it down as I crank it over by hand a few times.
However, Vang, .... as I said, originally, it sounds more like valve seals/guides to me. As oil slips past the seals/guides in the intake, whether the exhaust are nice and tight or not, the oil becomes a part of the combustion process and POOF, blue smoke out the exhaust valves and pipes. Sure, SOME oil can/will get past the rings, pushed up above the rings and then out the exhaust.... BUT THAT AMOUNT? Unless you used the wrong rings, I just don't see it. Even with my screwed up motor, I had almost NO smoke, even with initial fire up and with plenty of engine lube/Eski Cam Lube... The second motor, lil poof of white smoke from the lube, then nothing throughout the 20 minute break in. If the rings/holes are done properly, no egg-shape, etc., .....well, then you shouldn't have this issue.
Did you use chilled iron guides/replace them?(Not always necessary, but if you used an engine kit and then did the valves to fit the old guides, .... you might be ok. If you used the same valves, ground, in the same guides, that could cause some oil consumption right off the bat. Let us know exactly what you did. (BTW, you have a thread on this, right? could you post it here so I/others could just head over there?)
I would tear it down, too... And I'm sorry, man... I can relate, trust me! lol. Good thing you didn't chase your tail for months, like me, with crazy/hard to find gremlins like some of us get, hahaha. But it still sux! Don't wanna destroy your CAT/02, right off the bat, right?"

Posted by Vang 22re;

"No biuld thread. And you might be right about the wrong rings.
Is there a way to figure out if the rings were different size from standard?
Or would the piston even fit in the cylinder with the over size rings on it?
Dam oriellys and yea there also iron rings i needed rings that weekend and that was the closes place to me at the moment.
But ill also like you guys say do everything step by step and make sure every thing goes together nicely
Taking apart the engine is not going to happen till this weekend. Work gets in the way but ill let you guys in on the info as i rebuild the engine or mayb just start a rebuild thread"

Posted by Chefyota4x4;

"Yeah, start a rebuild... you'll get more hits, I would guess...Well, ...now remember, I wasn't talking about 'rings', mostly.... I was talking about "Chilled Iron Valve Guides"....... Far as rings, I went with Hastings-USA Rings, Bronze Valve Guides, Viton Valve Seals..... The rings were a good fit on mine, and if I mentioned ANYTHING regarding the rings on yours... It was meant, more so, to find out if the rings you used might have been too small(You know, like if you used stock piston size rings in a hole that's been bored out .20 over?). You don't NEED manganese bronze guides.... They're just for the oversizing I did and such,....they last pretty well, too. But not cheap and not able to absorb/hold oil like chilled iron(stock). And like I said, for a stock rebuild, chilled iron VALVE GUIDES are fine.(I'm guessing you didn't replace the guides.... that's a bit more of a job than compressing springs, which I'm sure you know....just guessing, as I said, lol).
I was suggesting, in case you misunderstood, that the Valve Guides and possibly seals are having issues.(Could just be one really bad guide or a few not quite up to par, whatever).... I did say, I think, that "it's POSSIBLE that some oil could get past the ring IF THE RINGS ARE WRONG or IF THE HOLE IS STILL EGG SHAPED(not properly bored out to a really nice 'o'-round).
You didn't answer, Vang, .....
1. Did you do new rings but not guides or seals?
2. OR, is it all new?
3. Read over what I asked again just to be sure we get all the answers to those questions(how much of the head was rebuilt/lapped valves?/guides?/seals?) K?"

Posted by TINMAN;

"Vang, Over sized rings most likely would not have fit in the bore. If they did, you would most likely have broken one or more on start up. Smaller rings might have fit, but I would think that you would have had a good chance of braking them putting them on the piston. Also with iron rings I would not suspect oil bypass just because the rings did not seat. Iron rings will seat to just about anything. If it comes down to a "ring" issue with iron rings, I would guess that they might not be clocked right, right side up, or a combination. I dont recal, did you have your block machined or did you hone it yourself. If it was honed, the cylenders could be oval instead of round. I think at this point I would start by pulling the head, and insure that the oil burn is not do to a valve guide, or seal.
The rebuild kits from EB are actually pretty good. Just spend the money on a Toyota head gasket. Although I have a $10.00 Felpro in my 94 22re and it is doing good. Knock on wood.
I agree start a build thread so we can all walk through this. Just send me a link becuase I might miss it."

Posted by Vang 22re;

"My bad chef.
Well first off my head was shot and i pulled a head off the wrecking yard. Had a blown head gasket cause the oil was milkey. I took the head in for resurface and checked for cracks (pass). So i just did the seals and didnt even think about the guides. And also did the rings, rod bearings and head gasket. And that was it.

Tinman
I didnt take the block in for machine just hone and put in the piston. I dont think itll have an egg shape cylinder cause before i did the rebiuld the car was running great just oil comsumption but not like this. So im just gona put out the whold engine this weekend"

Posted by Chefyota4x4;

"Vang, .... the problem with putting new rings in egged out holes is, that, well, ...... the rings are not egged to match, ya know? Oil can either be pouring by the 'gaps' or, in some cases, as I think was mentioned, it doesn't take long to tweak a ring out of place and voila, .... oil is gushing past into the combustion chamber and right out the exhaust after combining with fuel( I would think you'd hear some 'CLACKITY CLACK' draaaama going on if the latter were the case). If you were throwing stock rings back in after a quick hone, ... I would think if they were too egged out, you'd not have any drama getting the pistons back up in the holes without a bit of coaxing(The egg shape/oval-ness is going to be simply larger in one direction, not narrower, ya know?"

************************************************** *************

OK<> so, now we're caught up with all the discussion that went down... No need to waste it, eh? >>>>>>>>>>>> Onward with the pics and video and info from you, VANG, as you go, otay? >>>>>

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I might have done a leak down or at least compression test before yoinking it.... could have helped you pin-point, exactly, just where the problem/s is/are occurring.

Most times, when you're dealing with blue smoke, it can be simply put down to a few things;

1) oil galleys clogged
2)valve seals on head
3) Valve guides on head
4) rings

Couple things;

A. I wouldn't rule out rings just yet, but you're in there, so that'll come out, eventually, eh?

B. If you're going to bore the motor out, you'll need new pistons and rings(Wrist pins, etc.)

C. If you're doing new guides, and you've not done any performance mods on the head(OS valves, port and polishing, etc.).... then I'd stick with the Chilled Iron Guides(That's what toyota used, and they lasted HOW LONG?)..... Call Putney's(22reperformance.com)..... Jim is a GREAT guy and so is his partner, ... they'll give you the low down on whether or not to/why to use/what to use/ in regards to the guides & seals. I used Viton Seals... they're not much more and Jim will send you some if you need, quick like(If you can't wait, ask him where he'd get them.... Monday, of course, is when you can ask him, lol). Guides, same thing... He uses a brand he trusts, and the actual toyota ones are no better(as I remember him saying), and they are FAR MORE expensive. 10-12$ X 8 can add a bit to the cost, compared to 3-4$ x 8, right? (BTW; Chilled iron, as I said, it's just BETTER at retaining oil. The metallurgy of Manganese Bronze is MUCH tighter and with far less porosity/less porous, which allows the iron to hold oil better on the walls of the guides. Make sense?)

D. If you're doing all new bearings and rings.... I would go to a machinist you trust and ask him, or simply call Tod at engnbldr.com and ask him, "Hey Tod, .... any deals right now on a simple ring/bearing/guide/seal kit w/pistons? NOW:.... You COULD just piece it together as I did(Hastings-USA/Dual Stage Rings -- Viton Oil Seals -- TRW Manganese Bronze Guides -- Eskindarian Dual Stage Racing Springs -- OEM and relapped Rockers and rocker rods/Mildly drilled out for more oiling -- Sankei/Japan Main & Rod Bearings.... ETC.), .... but it aint TOO cheap. I managed to piece it all together pretty cheap like... But I took my time and hunted for deals and BEGGED A LOT! lol. My Machinist helped keep the cost down a lot, too, with him giving me his price on the Bearings/Rings/Guides.... Like I said, think it out for a day or two this time, then bite the bullet, ONE LAST TIME(if you get my meaning.... NEVER AGAIN! lol.. OK, maybe a 1/4 Million miles or so, but you get the point, haha).

E. I can't say enough about Tod and Ted's(Engnbldr.com) 261 CAM! It's a VERY noticeable change... along with the header/exhaust/lil porting I have. Even without it, before the second rebuild, I'm really glad I slipped onto them due to the first machinist putting me through the gremlin hunt from HELL! lol. 118$ or so? WELL WORTH IT! (Just remember, if you do grab one, to follow the instructions TO THE TEE! .007 and .009 and no more than 12# on the tensioner, and .... well, you should know all that by now, lol).

F. When installing everything into a newly bored chunk'o'iron.... You'll possibly hit a couple spots where you're trying to turn over the crank and it's just snug..... DON'T PANIC! Just break it down again at that portion and clean really well, then try again. BUT REMEMBER, ... before you start any of this, .... MARK YOUR CAPS AND BOLTS AND BAG THEM, WELL!!!!! Couple guys on here you can ask, like "86 toyota", who's a student that was building a 22re. He mixed up the caps, like some of us had guessed, and could NOT turn the crank over with even 3 main bearing caps on at 1/2 torque..... SCARY, RIGHT? lol.

G. Use plenty of GOOD engine lube and if you get a CAM, DON'T FORGET THE CAM LUBE/break in RULES! lol. AND, have the rockers lapped off by a good machinist if you grab said new cam, k? You don't wanna break in a new cam to hamburgered rocker pads, right?

H. REAMMMMMMMMMMMMM OUT THOSE OIL GALLEYS AND WATER JACKETS REALLY WELL, this time, when you get it apart. DO NOT go through all this trouble(if you choose to go all the way, bargain or not) and then wind up with a shot bearing in 5000 miles because you had a WAD'O'WHATEVER all jammed in one of the oil galleys. Personally, I would do it before and after machining..... BEFORE; Because you don't want some of that abrasive crap breaking free once it's all shiney and ready for pistons/rings..... After; to get any shavings that might have made their way into any of said galleys/ports, eh? As you force air and water through the ports/galleys, before and after hot tanking, you'll notice where it comes out the other end, and then set up the block accordingly. First, timing cover down/shooting high pressure air through the ports from the oil pan side. Then through the top of the block, forcing all the rust and crap out the water ports(you'll see HUGE chunks flying out of the timing cover ports, etc., ...GET IT ALL OUT as best as you can. Then HOT TANK AGAIN, nothing wrong with that, lol.

I. MY BEST recommendation I can make is to make friends with the craziest/most respected machinist around you....and then ask him, "Can I help/do most of the work?".... My new guy respected that so much that he is still, to this day, a good buddy who asks me to come do lunch, etc. More important at the time, ... IT SAVED ME HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS! I ended up with a full rebuild(minus cam), flywheel redone, Control Arm Bushings swapped out/in, much more, along with some specialty work(head/ and such) with all the parts for under 700$! Granted, I did most of the work and almost all of the assembly.... but he was RIGHT THERE! If you don't have time for any of this, just TAKE YOUR TIME, and ask questions, like, "Can we use your hot tank a couple times/and air/ to really get the block flushed out? IT'S A MESS!"

J. GET THE CRANK TURNED, WHILE YOU'RE AT IT!!!! Oh, sorry, was I yelling? lol..... Seriously, don't go through a proper build and then spin out your bearings in 20K, right? If it can't be turned anymore, ....well, AREN'T YOU GLAD you had it checked out? hahaha. 60$ at the yards by me for a crank that they'll let me bring back if it can't be done to 10-10 or 20-20 max!.... most good yards are like that. I just went with the whole short block....didn't have a choice due to the first machinist cracking the face of my block.... but BOY am I glad I did, ya know? Started fresh and it's running 'FRESHHHHH!' lol.

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Sorry for going on like that, Vang.... But I KNOW how many questions and worries can go through ones head when going through these things/figuring out WHICH parts/what brands, etc., etc., right? Plus, it saves me from doing 15 posts, right? hahaha.

Best wishes, man, ...

Mark

vang_22re

Hahaha thanks a lot chef. Saved me a hole lot of time. I'm at my parents place rite now. That is where the surgery is happenin cause I'll get in trouble doing it in my apartment parking lot haha I'll take some pictures today and well go from there

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Look, repairing your rig is one thing,.......... but SURGERY ON YOUR PARENTS????? DON'T DO IT, MAN!!!!! lol. jk..... Again, best wishes, and sounds like you've already got it out, so you're half way there, .....SALUTE! haha.

Yeah, aside from pics.... Maybe, lay out a good Process of Elimination/Plan, like so......
PLANS:

1. Disassembling block from head(dropping head at shop)
2. Disassembling block and numbering EVERYTHING(Dropping block at shop)
3. ......and so on.......

FINDINGS:

1. #2 Main bearings is already showing wear
2. #1, #3 and #4 Exhaust Valves EXTREMELY over the limit on 'play' within the guides
3. .......and so on, hahaha.

vang_22re

I did do a compression test before taking out the motor just forgot to post it haha
1. 140
2. 155
3. 145
4. 145

But i didnt do a leak/wet test.

TinMan

Quite the read already. Those compression numbers aren't to bad. About normal actually. And if u do find that you have an issue in the head(valve guides, seals etc). Pulling the engine to do the work is not a bad idea. Makes getting to everything so much easier.

vang_22re

Also forgot to mention... There was a lot of pressure when I open the oil cap with the engine on

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

What do you mean by 'lots of pressure'? There should be some, and normally the oil cap is never removed while it's running... Have you ever filled one of these with oil and forgot to put the cap on and then ran it? MESSYYYYY! lol.

The PCV should relieve some of that pressure back into the plenum.... Did you replace the PCV when you did all this??????? It might even cause some blue smoke, because if it's unable to release the pressure in the top end, it's gotta go somewhere.

TinMan

Yep a bad PCV could very well cause it to burn oil. Pull it and shake it, it should rattle. Then blow in it both ways, you should be able to blow threw it one way, and not the other.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, .... The PCV is actuated by Vacuum, assisted by a decent amount of pressure that develops on the 'valve cover' side of things..... Blow from the bottom of the PCV toward the top, it should flow(NOT like a straw..... it has SOME resistance, simply due to the valve that's in there does not allow totally free flowing air). Then, blow toward the motor from the top(obviously it's out in your hands at this point), it should NOT allow air back the other direction.

If those tests reveal it's stuck open/closed, ... this can easily cause issues, one of them being oil burning, the other being "running chunky/like crap/even stalling in some cases".

And remember, if this pressure cannot be ventilated..... It's gotta go somewhere, eh?

Personally, I've had 2 situations with REALLY poor running/oil blow by that were caused by my PCV being bad. The first rig, I replaced it with a POC aftermarket one.... it failed in 2 months..... The next time, I put in Toyota OEM. They're cheap enough.

Also remember, .......... the recommendation for replacing the PCV is every 15K or so(IIRC?)..... Now, that's subjective, cuz I've had a stock one in there in another rig for 100K+~!.... and never had an issue with it, lol. Still, again, ...... IT'S A CHEAP INVESTMENT to avoid drama/possibly even damage.(YES, in some motors, Ie. Some BUICK'S, 'failure to catch a failing or failed PCV can lead to MAJOR engine damage/even total seizure'.... )

I only mention all this because, well, .... how many really think about the PCV? RIGHT? lol.

vang_22re

Ok i check everything out today. Went out and bought a bore gauge. Measure the bore and it 92.50 which means its .50mm over size.

The ones i got were standard size. I guess the previuos owner rebuilt the motor but never told me about it but then again he was an old guy who just drove a car from A to B.

Got another story. I pulled the clutch apart ang guess what???? (what?) the clutch disc was put on backwards there was a isgn "t/m side" which was facing the flywheel. Im suprise it was able to perform.. Weird..

vang_22re

Its gona rain this weekend!!! Woooooh!!!!

That means snow in the moutin!!! WoooooHH!!!

Engine is not near finish....BOOOOOO!!!

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Very strange on the T/M side being backward and not having HUGE tail/tell! It should have been SCREAMING with 'GRINGFGRRRRRRRSHHHHHHHH' and other ugly sounds, not so poorly described as I just did! lol

.50 over?Ahhhhh, well, that would explain quite a bit. Take a dial indicator and make SURE them holes are ROUND, ya know? Measure four times in each spot as you come up from the bottom, 12/3/6 and 9 oclock, and compare. There are limits with that, and you'll find out soon enough. You've gone to all this trouble, make sure you wouldn't just be better off with a new short block, ya know, Vang? (YES< you could very well just bore this out, again.... but next up is .60 over..... Might not be optimal when you're now ordering rings all over again, right?) What I'm saying is; If you DO need another bore, which I hope you don't, ....then you're gonna probably want new pistons again, .60 ..... and why do that? For that cost you could probably find another block for cheap that will only need a 20over(.50MM)..... Usually around 80-100$..... Get to keep the crank in it, all the other innards,.....then just slap your pistons for the .50mm over motor into the next block, get the right rings and call it a day..... just sayin. Anywayyyyyy, I HOPE AND PRAY you don't need more than just a re-ring, so just know that I'm only thinking outloud.... not trying to be negative, PROMISE! lol

vang_22re

Weird thing is that i drove the car like that for 2 1/2 years haha and it perform well too...pushing some 33's when i still had 4.10s. Clutch is still pretty decent so that is not going to be change

RMP8080

Maybe they labeled the clutch wrong.....