RSR

Note: I am double posting -- I posted this in engine swaps general too, but it fits better here.

Okay, I've done searching here and throughout the interwebs, and am hoping to get some more insight from these boards.

I have an automatic 93 sr5 xtra cab pickup with the 3vze engine (electric injection V6, 3.0 L [2958 cc], 150 hp & 180 lbf-ft torque), and am wondering if any toyota diesel engines might be direct fit or near direct fit with proper engine compartments, etc. I'm looking for and would prefer non-ECM engines... Especially since there now appears to be an issue with importing/availability of complete half cuts w/ wiring and ECMs into the states (Diesel Toys just quit doing them, Import Performance doesn't have any, etc).

Looking at the second gen 90 series Land Cruiser Prado (1990-1996), it came with the following engines (and looks like it shared a lot parts/setups with Hilux Surf, Tacoma, & T100):
(***Also just learned that all 2nd Gen Prado models came standard equipped with a "Field Monitor showing altimeter, thermometer and pressure" everywhere except South Africa. New search on with international parts yards/scrappers...***)

4 cylinder gas
-3RZ-FE, 2.7 L (2693 cc) ECM, 150 hp & 177 lbf-ft torque

6 cylinder gas
-5VZ-FE V6, 3.4 L (3378 cc) ECM, 190 hp & 220 lbf-ft torque

4 cylinder diesel
-3L, 2.8 L (2776 cc) mechanical, 91 hp & 139 lbf-ft torque
-5L, 3.0 L (2986 cc) mechanical, 97 hp & 142 lbf-ft torque
-1KZ-TE (turbo), 3.0 L (2982 cc) ECM, 130 hp & 211 lb-ft torque
--1KZ-TE (turbo w/ intercooler) ECM, 3.0 L (2982 cc) ECM injection, 145 hp & 253 lb-ft torque
--removing electric to 1KZ-T mechanical (turbo) specs would be 125 hp & 211 lb-ft torque
-1KD-FTV (turbo w/ intercooler) ECM, 3.0 L (2982 cc) D-4D, 170 hp & 260 lbf-ft torque

Recognizing that the 5vz and 3vz are mostly direct swaps, I'm thinking that at least one of these diesels should be a direct fit on 3vze/5vz engine mounts/engine bay configuration -- do any of the diesel options direct fit or fit with minimal modification?

I'd prefer either the 5L engine then 3 engines as I can add turbo and intercoolers to both for allegedly at least ~57% to 67% add'l power and torque (and Aussies and others have added - http://www.4wdsystems.com.au/index.php?id=39).

So for the 3L turbo'ed and intercooled, that'd bring it to ~143-152 hp and ~218-232 lbf-ft torque.
And for the 5L, that'd bring it to ~152-162 hp and ~223-237 lbf-ft torque.

Actual dynoed Hilux (this company's full kit including mandrel exhaust) values for 3L with just turbo are 122 hp and 185 lbf-ft torque. http://www.axtturbo.com.au/3l_28l_engine.html
Actual dynoed Hilux (this company's full kit including mandrel exhaust) values for 5L with just turbo are 147 hp and 237 lbf-ft torque. http://www.axtturbo.com.au/5l_30l_engine.html
And adding an intercooler should increase performance by an add'l 15-20% -- all from mechanical processes!
(Adding that 15-20% to dynoed Hiluxes, using +17.5% for #s that follow, raises the 3L to 143 hp & 217 lbf-ft torque, and raises the 5L to 173 hp & 278 lbf-ft torque.)

For comparison, the Mercedes OM617 (3.0L 2998 cc) a lot of folks are using produces 79hp and 125 lbf-ft of torque in standard configuration but turbo does better at 123hp and 181 lbf-ft torque.

If the 5L w/ turbo and intercooler will fit in our trucks, it appears to be the best mechanical option and actually the best of any of the electrical options too -- much better performance than the base 5vze at 190 hp & 220 lbf-ft torque & slightly better performance than the supercharged 5vze option at 260 hp & 265 lbf-ft torque (adding a 7th injector kit, etc, or further mods would probably make the 5vze even w/ the 5L but turboing/supercharging unleaded engines seems to be how fast do you want ruin your engine). Also better performance than any of the fancy new toyota diesels on power specs (but prob not mileage and definitely not emissions).

And the Mercedes seems to barely edge out the 3L as its #s don't include an intercooler, and is probably an easier swap due to parts, availability, etc.

Also, I see varying info: are the 3L and 5L engines interference or non-interference engines?

The Mercedes is not -- please confirm.

Next steps after above questions are answered is comparing approximate mpgs and prices for swaps for the finalists to start saving the scrilla and putting the shopping lists together to make this actually happen, haha.

Thanks!

twowheelwarehouse

iTrader: (1)

Great questions. I want a diesel so bad I can taste it but there are just so many unknowns that as shown, are hard to get answers for.

Please keep us posted on your decision making process.

RSR

Thank you. On principle, I really want a diesel, and bad federal gov't policy is the only reason we don't have them... On simplicity (no electronics on the 5L and 3L bases) and durability (diesel fuel lubricates cylinders in addition to burning and runs cooler), I really want a diesel. On the economy of the fuel itself, low cost biodiesel, a gallon of diesel having 20% more energy than a gallon of gasoline (even before reducing gasoline's energy futher as more and more ethanol gets added), and that diesel is a much more stable fuel than gasoline are also attractive. And that's before we even get into engine mechanics, power curves, the ability to boost performance mechanically, etc.

From a cost standpoint, and considering I have neither the time nor skills to execute this own my own, I'll need to pay someone. The cost for a Toyota diesel swap is likely around $19.5k (Diesel Toys 1KZ-TE price before they started focusing on the newer D4D engines...) -- you might be able to swing it for $15k, but half cuts are getting harder and harder to find/import. To pay someone for the 3.4, 5vzfe swap is $3500 if you have a manual transmission, and no more than twice that if you have an auto. That the supercharged 5vzfe, and the turboed and intercooled diesel have basically the same power specs makes performance pretty much a wash. And any difference in fuel economy doesn't matter as $15k can buy a lot of a gas.

The more I think about it -- and I still want to do some more research on executing a 3L or 5L swap -- I'm now largely debating between the Mercedes diesel swap and the 5vzfe swap. The former will give me pretty much the same performance specs as the 3vze I'm running now (with a little more low end), or I can upgrade power and stay gasoline at the same cost of the diesel swap. The primary decision factors for me are power/performance, fuel/power plant, user-friendliness of the engine, and cost. On the first 5vzfe wins, the second I'm not sure, the third Mercedes wins (no ECM is a winner for me), and the last is a tie.

I'm thinking about buying an old Mercedes diesel and driving it a bit to see how I like the performance before moving forward. That'll help me to make up my mind on point 2. But that's a year or two off.

I also want to do some more research on how the engine compartment is configured -- running two electric fans and no AC as many have done with the OM617 swap is a loser for me in TX as it'll cool less efficiently and then the no AC is a no go.

JayKray

TDswap's kit allows you to keep the toyota AC compressor in it's original location with the OM617.
I haven't heard about too many cooling issues with the electric fans either.

RSR

I thought there was an issue w/ clearance with the front mounted fans, where you had to lose the A/C condensor... But I did see recently where TDswaps facebook page, he managed to squeeze a 617 in and keep the stock mechanical fan...

JayKray

I was able to fit it all in there, but I had to trim the inside of my grill significantly. I need to vacuum and charge my system, so I can't tell you if the cooling is sufficient from the two cheapo electric fans that I have.

t100 noob

i would love to do this swap cant afford and not enough technical know - how

6840

Just curious what you decided to do? I've spent some time in a completely stock '91 Surf with 2LT-E and automatic. It has at least as much "seat of the pants" power as the 3VZE. My wife drives a non-turbo '97 Mercedes E300D, it gives similar performance in the sedan, but there is no easy comparison because the vehicles are so different.

RSR

I think from performance, price, and parts availability, a 3.4 swap makes the most sense for me, unfortunately, than the Toyota diesel... For 1/3 of the price of the Toyota diesel swap (if supercharged, might not super it in which case it's ~1/4 the cost), the same power (if supered), and saving only 2-3 mpg most likely (~15%) w/ the diesel, I really can't justify it. That ~$15k is a lot of money -- better used in my book anyways for savings, other toys, some nice vacations, and a lot of gas...

Long term, as my mechanical skills grow and I get more comfortable on diesels and if I have plenty of spare change to throw around, I might try to implement this ideal scenario, but not completely committed to it. The basic idea of a mechanical only diesel engine is still pretty appealing.

I'm still open to the 80s MB turbo diesel swap, but want to buy and drive one first and familiarize myself w/ that engine... If it leaves me w/ the same performance as the 3vze, that too is hard to completely justify. But I might just do it...

For a Toyota Diesel Swap, I'm still holding out hope however. My wife has been looking at the 80 and 100 series landcruisers for her next rig, and if swapping the V6/V8 to a turbo diesel, I can increase MPGs by at least 1/3rd, which would easily pay for itself in that vehicles lifetime of ownership...

ajy4490

I think you are significantly undervaluing the OM617 here, for multiple reasons, some of which have already been mentioned.

1. The OM617.952 is easily available at 121hp / 180ftlb tq. While not crazy numbers, its decent power to easily push the vehicle around in stock configuration. If you're already looking at the work and investment of turboing and intercooling a 5L, some minor mods and adjustments on an OM617 and you'd be roughly in the same ballpark for power (intercoller especially).

2. The OM617 is easily available, all over the world. No need to spend gobs of money for asian or Australian half cuts or random parts. Furthermore if you keep the vehicle for a long time
(why else would you want a diesel) then parts availability form an OM617 is just as easy. I think this is incredibly undervalued aspect here.

3. Adaptor plates, kits, and support are everywhere for the OM617 swap. 4x4Labs, mercedes4x4.com (jeep), TDSwaps, etc all have various offerings. Furthermore, you've got a small group of people here at yotatech who've done the OM617 swap, know the details, and are readily offering there help.

4. Cost. For me this is also important, I don't have tons of cash to throw at such a project. You can get a full OM617 parts car for $1000 or less in most areas of the US. If its not totally rusted out, chances are you could make your money back parting it out.

For these reasons and others (fuel efficiency, biodiesel compatibility, personal familiarity w/ Mercs, etc) I'm going for a OM617 or OM602 when I'm finally ready to pull the trigger. I'd say if you're not going to do a OM617 engine, go with a 5VZ and don't look back. If you're really hoping to have a one-of-a-kind diesel build with a turboed 5L, make sure to take lots of pictures and post it right here

RSR

The 180ftlbs torque on the 617 is equivalent to the power specs of the 3vze. HP of the 617 is 30 less.

Absolutely, on parts availability and aftermarket support alone, I agree the 617 swap is superior to either the 3L or 5L conversion.

From the keeping your yota a yota perspective, it is not an option...

From a power perspective it is also not the best option -- the 617 seems to be similar on the dynos to the 3L. Which, w/ turbo and intercooler #s from my research above, has torque and hp roughly equivalent to the base 5vzfe 3.4. Could probably push more, but from what I've seen over on superturbodiesel, doing so requires significant $ and upgrades on that base block that may or may not be worth it to you. Makes it less of a swap in and more of a complete engine overhaul and a swap...

For me, I'm deciding if a I really want a diesel on my truck (most likely, the 617 swap), or if more power is preferable (the 3.4 swap). Right now, I'm leaning towards the latter as a bone stock and reliable w/ no forced induction 3.4L puts out more HP than any of the diesel options, turbo and intercooled included; the 3.4L puts out 80% of the torque of the turboed and intercooled 5L (most powerful diesel option), more torque the 1KZTE (our generation trucks' foreign turbo diesel option), and 87% of the turbo and intercooled 1KZTE... Only if putting on the latest and greatest Toyota D4D diesel is there significant performance gains (from my interpretation) over the stock 3.4L, and even then those gains are wiped with a supercharged or turboed 3.4L. I too was hoping for power making the choice obvious, but it just doesn't. And, after doing the math, the few mpgs gained won't make a Toyota diesel the financially prudent option that I hoped it would've...

I try to force myself into looking at my vehicles as tools, not investments, toys or status symbols, so that's significant in my decision process too.

I also place a big premium on reliability and parts availability and mechanic support for when I'm in over my head or buried at work. Both of the below options meet these criteria too.

That's why I'm at:
1) do I want a diesel? if so, looks like the 617 is the best choice
2) do I want power? if so, the 3.4L is the best option
*I really haven't progressed since my 7/23 musings about the same options above.

So I think I'm giving the MB's mechanical diesels the respect they deserve. But I'm also not going to post the dynos or even think I can achieve the dyno equivalents out of the 617s as some enthusiasts have shared, heck they only care about power and regularly bomb engines -- I want my diesel to run at least 300k, not give me 300 hp for a week...

YMMV of course.

(I'm far from an expert too -- just dipping my toes in the water and trying to orient myself.)

ajy4490

Right on, I think that's a great perspective you have. The 5VZ is really a great engine and hard to argue with for power and cost. You already having the 3VZ makes that swap incredibly easy and cost effective, no real major modifications or kits needed, save for some crazy wiring.

For me, a diesel makes more sense as cost especially as you consider cost, not only in the swap but also longterm. I am able to harvest a lot of WVO and thereby get free/cheap biodiesel, a bit with blending 75Bio/25Dino in winter time. My 5VZ R150 4Runner gets 17-18mpg highway if I'm lucky. That and lets face it, diesels just have this awesomeness factor like none other.

waltt

I kinda wish i would of gone the 5vz route myself. my om617 was stock b4 it blew up just over a month ago. the milage in my 94 runner was in the mid 20s, toque wasnt as much as my 3vz, but it came on erlyer, a good 22r would beat me in a drag race. my buddys Tacoma gets around 20mpg. and stomps my truck in the dirt. and probably would of cost half of what my om617 swap cost. just food for thought

RSR

Free or nearly free fuel definitely changes the cost equation. I don't have a setup currently to support it... Not sure how the alternative diesel options work with the new D4D, direct injection diesel options either. I do know that propane has been used quite a bit in Australia and elsewhere in turbo diesel applications (not sure about on a direct injection platform though).

WVO is a good option, and pretty easy, but distillation of diesel from waste motor oil intrigues me the most of options for alternative diesel fuels that I've seen. Definitely check that out if you haven't...

ajy4490

Most/all diesel engines are capable of at least some blend of biodiesel. Manufacturers likely say this is up to B20, but in reality most engines seem to handle up to B100 with the proper minor changes. I can't speak too much about new BlueTech or direct injection diesels or the D4D, but I'd bet that with proper filters and vitron hosing you'd be in good shape. For IDI Mercedes engines (OM60X, OM61X) upgrade the fuel hoses to vitron and run B100 so long as its above freezing outside.

For fuel supply, I have an agreement locally where for every 2g of WVO I give, I get 1g of clean biodiesel. The biodiesel processing is a big enough operation that the quality is great, but if I were to start making it out of my garage (debated doing that for a while now) I would certainly add in an extra filter with water separator before the main filter to make sure you don't damage your IP.

WVO/WMO are all good candidates if you're looking at Mercedes engines, many people run the OM61X engines on both for many thousands of miles. Its not nearly as refined as B100 but if you have a good source then go for it! If you're in a warm climate get some heaters and drop the stuff in your tank, in but in colder climates a 2nd tank in the trunk is generally necessary.

Waltt's point of power certainly is valid regarding power. The OM617 adds roughly 200lb compared to the 22RE with only ~ 20 extra HP, probably resulting in equal 0-60 times. That being said I think you're doing it wrong if you're trying to make a Toyota truck fast. For me, being able to safely drive in traffic is all I need in a truck, plus I guess having lots of helps with towing.