I'm thinking, I know I should move the shackle something like 3/4" forward (front shackle) for clearance on the V6 (2nd gen), what about moving it forward 1-1.5" with gusseting, or actually mounting it on the FRONT of that frame portion? It would move the axle forward even more, making for better approach angles and support more of the weight of the motor.

Good/bad? Ideas? Thanks

 

Pretty sure moving your shackle will only change your shackle angle but dont hold me to that. I have heard of people moving the front mount to get that clearance off the firewall your obviously looking for.

 

Your post is a tad confusing.

On my 2nd Gen SAS swap, I bought the entire kit from Marlin. The front hanger was welded inline with the factory frame crossmember. The rear shackle pivot was basically centered between the body mount (drilled with jig provided)

Just sitting there, my front wheel sits slightly forward in the wheel well. When fully compressed, the wheel drops back into the fender opening perfectly. I have no clearance issues with tires or steering. I am running 35's.

If you move the front hanger to far forward you may start sacrificing strength without the correct frame support. Also, you'll be making your shackle angle more vertical, and less desirable.

With the body mount where it is, you are kind of stuck with the rear shackle pivot location. You'd have to move in front or behind the body mount or modify said mount completely. I'd guess pivot would have to be moved 1 1/2" in either direction to get around the body mount.

When you state "you know" you have to move the front support forward 3/4" or so... how do you know this? Not saying you are wrong, but like I said, my rig is flush with the crossmember and works very well.

 

I think I remember it was for oil pan clearance as well as better weight support for the 3vz.

As for moving it forward, I was thinking, on the same frame member where you welded yours to the bottom, welding mine to the FRONT of that portion......but keeping the rear shackle location in the middle of the mount location. Obviously this would stretch out the leaf spring a little bit. Would that be bad? I'd be able to run a bigger drop spring this way I think because some of the slack in it would be pulled out as the spring is compressed to reach the front shackle.

Did I explain that okay? I might be able to photoshop a picture or somethign to explain better, it's kinda hard to visualize without a picture haha.

 

I am pretty sure I understand your idea, but I also think you are over thinking the project a little.

If you did move the front hanger in front of the frame, you'd loose a lot of the support the frame has to offer. You would have to fabricate some serious gussets to keep the hanger from flexing or failing. With my hanger fully welded to the original frame, my frame still started to crack just behind the hanger. I had to gusset the backside of the hanger to the frame to keep things together.

That front hanger takes a ton of torque and stress. You want to mount it as solidly as possible.

Now, if you move the front forward, yet leave the rear shackle point where it is suggested (between 2nd body mount) then your shackle will be at a forward angle. Like this / instead of this \. This is in reference to looking at the vehicle from the drivers side. I am no expert, but it's my understanding that the closer a shackle is to vertical, the worse the performance will be. Facing forward... worse still. I think it has something to do with the forces the shackle has to overcome before moving. Like this \, the shackle folds back easily (which is the way you want it to go) and results in a softer ride and easier flex. From what I can tell, shackle angle is a bit of a balancing act with a few views as to how to find the perfect angle.

I do know you really don't want the shackle to end up like this / though. If your shackle faced forward, you might even have a chance of inverting it and causing damage to the shackle and spring. Although the cupping effect of the body mount would probably prevent this. Try to visualize the suspension in action. Do you see anyway for a shackle like this / to end up like this \ under articulation? It may, but has to fight a lot to get there. It's going to want to come forward first, which is bad.

If you wanted your idea to work, I think you'd have to look into a spring that is longer from eye to eye. This would correct the span and put the shackle at the angle \ it needs to be. If you have done some swaps before, or have extensive fab experience, longer springs wouldn't be that hard to figure out.

If not, or if this is your first SAS, there are lot's of factors you would need to consider. One that comes to mind how the spring pad placement in relation to the the angle of the axle can and will effect your caster. Could lead to "Death Wobble" or other negative handling traits. You'd also have to experiment with different spring packs to get the sag and flex you are happy with. Even though leaf suspensions are considered "simple" there is still a lot to mess up, especially in the front end. Would be a shame to do a swap with negative handling results when the kits are pretty much foolproof.

As someone with very limited fab experience who has done a SAS, I'd suggest just sticking with the directions and materials that are provided in any of the kits you may choose (Marlin, AllPro, TG, etc). It's a lot of work, but worth it once you get back out on the trails.

By the way, I had no issues with my steering clearing the stock 3.0 oil pan. If you did, there are other oil pans you could use that would be easier to swap in than starting to mess with the spring position.

What kit have you decided to go with? Maybe it would be best to pick the suppliers brain a bit with your concerns. I am sure they have seen many problems arise and figured out how to work around them.

 

you do kinda get the picture of what I'm thinking, but let me explain how I'd mount it.

Think about how your shackle is welded from the top of the shackle to the bottom of the frame.

now take that shackle, physically move it to the front of the frame portion, but mount it from the back of the shackle to the front of the frame, not actually rotating the shackle at all.....see what I mean? like the rear of your shackle as you can see now, would be welded to the front part of that section of frame, so that the shackle would still be angled like \

but I guess you're right, I'm overthinking it. thanks

and I was planning on picking up the TG gear kit essentially....but very slowly haha.

 

So, you'd be pushing the front hanger forward as well as up... correct?

I still think your support and strength would be far less than welding the hanger under the frame. There would be nothing above the hanger except any gussets you design. Also, you'd also have to notch the frame, as the hanger looks like a capitol letter "I" from above... if that makes any sense.

Down the line you'll have to consider how this adjustment would effect mounting a bumper and winch as well. You'd be back into the full custom fab arena... but not knowing anything about your abilities, that may not be an issue at all.

The way I see it, the higher front hanger would change the angle of the front springs at the perches and in turn effect the axles caster. You'd also be bringing up the steering components closer to the oil pan, which is a concern of yours. I still think your shackle would be pulled / instead of \ with the additional length (moving from under frame to front)

I am sure you have seen on various chat boards the infinite amount of possibilities when it comes to a swap and spring setup. It's good to think outside of the box... but this particular box has all ready been well thought out so such a redesign would give limited improvement, if any, in my opinion.

When all is said and done however, I think getting the complete TG kit and mounting it as specified will be your best bet to avoid failure and have a well performing rig when you are done.

 

ahh yes i forgot about the caster issues.

I already have a Warn bumper and winch, and the bumper will need to be modified either way I go, so I think i'll just stick with the recommendations based on v6 and stuff in the TG instructions.

 

One trick I saw after my hanger was installed was to grind down the frame so it will be level with the original front most crossmember that you will be attaching your hanger to. Makes for a more solid point of contact. You see what I mean when you get your parts if my explanation is fuzzy.

I'd also suggest reinforcing the original frame behind the hanger first thing to prevent cracks in the future.

I had to modify a TJM to work with my SAS. Not that bad, so hopefully your Warn will be of similar difficulty.