Punchy

I have had no problems running a narrow band (stock) with my linear needle gauge for years now.
On a normal running engine the ECU is in a constant state of flux of high and low across stioch during idle and cruise, It does this to keep synce and look for problems.
During hard throttle and WOT the ECU goes into Open Loop and dumps more fuel.


In my opinion I cannot see the use of a wideband on a OBD-1 EFI when you cannot program the ECU.
Wide or narrow has the same affect on OBD-1, Its always trying to find stioch and if its in a constant state of to low or too high depending on its running condition it throws a code.


I could understand if this was in the 96 and newer toy section but still not needed.

theerroneouspenguin

I've wandered the same thing. If the ecu can't be re-programmed, whats the point?

OP says he just wants to monitor his ratio, and a wideband would give him a more accurate reading. IDK.

I've only seen widebands in tuner cars that wre either heavily modded or running boost.


The OP says he was going to do some more mods with the afm and whatnots, so in theory, it could be tunable. as far as fuel/air goes..to a certain point.

and yes..once at WOT, it closed loop and fuel just gets pretty much dumped.

bbrideau

Now i am curious about the innovate Wideband. I look at the AEM ones in the parts store every time i am in there as I am rebuilding my 22re and it is going to be as modified as my budget will allow so knowing AFR would be ideal. Wonder if the ECU in the 22re/3vz will play nicely with the wide band system. If OP doesn't do it I think i will venture into the water for the 22re world.

bone collector

Anybody found a wideband that uses the 2 bolts as mounting hardware instead of the screw in style? Trying to find out if I would need to weld in a new o2 bung.

theerroneouspenguin

ive always seen the bung welded on. it takes the place of one of your o2 sensors.

bone collector

Yes the bung is welded in. The stock Toyota o2 sensor uses 2 bolts to attach to the exhaust. Most o2 sensors screw in to the pipe. I was wondering if anyone has found a wideband that uses the 2 bolts instead of the screw in style.

theerroneouspenguin

probably not. you need a good tight seal for a good reading so i doubt any use bolts..maybe a screw type but i doubt it.

bone collector

Do you even work on cars and trucks? Or are you just a web wheeler that knows it all? O2 sensors are a serviceable part that have to be removed in some way. Most have threads at the base of the sensor to attach it to the bung that is welded to the exhaust pipe. Toyota uses an o2 sensor that has a plate with 2holes that bolts pass thru it and then 2 nuts clamp the plate down tight so it doesn't leak. I was wondering if anyone had found a Toyota style wideband o2 sensor. I had only been able to find the screw in types. If that is the case I will make a block off plate for my bung, and get a screw in bung welded in.

theerroneouspenguin

my uncle is asc master mechanic for gm and ive worked on hondas my whole life.

i undertsnad o2 sensors are a servicable part but ive always seen wide bands welded in. no threads. just a weld.

bone collector

The link you posted with the gauge that has digital and a analog read out. The sensor has threads on it......

theerroneouspenguin

i know..but ive never seen them screwed in. always welded on.

Punchy

How about this.

bone collector

Where did you find that?

RSR

Agree that innovate is the way to go w/ sensors.

Here's everything you need to know about widebands: http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=188457

The easiest route for install is to have an exhaust shop install a second 02 bung and install your wideband there...

Our trucks -- the ECM only controls the A/F ratio when in closed loop. That's basically from off idle to 70-80% of the way WOT.

From 70-80%+, the changes you make with your wideband do make a difference. In particular, the adjustments at the AFM -- most visible through Supra AFM swap -- or adjustments made to compensate for high-flow gray Flamethrower injectors, etc.
To control the Air Fuel Ratio when in closed loop, you need a controllable fuel pressure regulator installed in place of factory and a fuel pressure controller. A guy called Nashman00 on here did it with an Apexi Neo controller and a Honda fuel pressure regular.

I don't know that the second step is necessary, however. Our 3.0s can't breathe well in stock form. The AFM is a huge contributor to that, hence the swap. When swapping, you need the wideband to properly set new AFM -- to ensure it's not running too lean or too rich. This is when it's in open loop and basically consulting tables for fuel and air ratios -- by changing inputs from what the computer expects, you can make your vehicle run leaner (more efficient) or richer (more power -- but probably a little leaner than stock form where can't breathe; think it drops to 10:1 with stock at high RPMs when it really needs to be at 12:1 for max power and minimal fuel waste)

The ECM itself does the stoich adjustment the rest of the time using the wideband -- but you want to ensure your setup is in the ballpark of where the AFM needs it to be so you computer doesn't put you rig into a protection mode... The Open Loop is when your adjustments matter most, and unless you're going to be doing custom mapping on your ECM and other mods, the advantage of trying to mod your closed loop setup is pretty minimal for most drivers...

bone collector

OK, I think I am starting to understand now. I need my regular o2 for the truck to work with the ecm. And a second wideband o2 to control the gauge. Since I'm not looking for programming capabilities in the wideband,only a gauge which one should I get????

RSR

My research says the innovate ones are best. And they come w/ a couple different face plates, so you can customize the look to rig...

I haven't purchased or installed yet -- still in the reliability and safety and economy gain phase of my build before I start the fun mods -- but I've done my research on most of what I plan to buy...

I'm likely going to install this and likely a tranny fluid temp gauge in the pocket under the radio. Debating over adding a coolant actual temp gauge and/or oil temp gauges as well... Makes the most sense for me for secondary gauges like these over a dash or pillar setup... Actually, I would prefer to do the pillar, but I like my handle there, so... But YMMV.

On my dash, I'd like to do an altimeter, inclinometer, compass, and outside temp display of some sort.

And to reiterate, on our trucks, we can adjust air/fuel ratio manually with the AFM and idle air bypass screw on the AFM for when the trucks are in open loop. The top end adjustment though really needs the Supra AFM to be worthwhile since our stock AFM flapper is so undersized/a choke point. Additionally, if adding the gray bosch flamethrowers w/ the +8% extra flow, you want to add the wideband to eliminate as much as possible the extra fuel flow you'll have in open loop that does nothing for power and would only just expedite the destruction of your cat... Only if you have the supra AFM, do the gray bosch make sense over the orange (and even then I'm not sure what if any measurable advantage you'd get).

RSR

Probably this one -- an 02 sensor flange: http://www.mandrelbendingsolutions.c...-Flange/Detail

Another good option: http://www.yotashop.com/o2-sensor-mounting-flange/

Lastly ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toyota-Style...-/170998012892

bone collector

I have the Supra AFM with a 2 1/2 in ISR and EGR delete. Im also running 8 mm plug wires and just picked up a set of headers. Im getting ready to tear into the motor over Christmas break and replace a bad valve seal and do a mild port n polish job on the heads while im at it. All of these mods combined is why I believe I need the Wideband o2 to properly tune my rig.

bone collector

oh and my timing is set to 17 degrees. I definitely not stock anymore

cpljenkins01

So I now understand more about adjusting these 3vze I was not aware of the purpose of adjusting the air adle screw until now. I was running at 10% (stock) timing and was just adjusting the afm back and forth to get the best milage and not getting low end rattle. Well I could not get the low end rattle to stop without dumping loads of fuel in it until I started messing with the air adle screw. I did not think that would affect the low end rattle but it does. Still. It dialed in perfect but it helped a lot. Can anyone send me a pic of what it does when I turn the air adle screw either direction? Also I read before where some took it out and drilled it out for performance reasons? Is this true? If so can you show me how?