KevyWevy

i'd like one as well

phorensic

A MAF conversion is just what I'm looking for. I wouldn't mind paying +/- $125 for just the MAF and all the hookups and then fabbing another custom intake. $400 is a little much for a 1 or 2 bend powder coated aluminum tube, if you guys are saying just the MAF part is $100.

Will the MAF be able to sense up to 1 BAR of boost??

Down2TheC

I'll ask them about the boost. ICO pricing, don't forget there's a customizer chip in there doing the same thing as the a split second product that sells for > $200 without the custom harnesses for you vehicle. You have to figure it out and hook it up, then tune it. This one would come tuned for the 3.0 stock. So it's really three mods in one. More flow through intake, MAF replaces VAFM, and signal conversion to lean out mix. (Okay, the first two are towards the same goal but they build on eachother.) For what it's worth, Josh says they don't mark up 3rd party products they put in the kit. They pay $100, that's what they add to the kit price. But you have to give them some markup on the stuff they design, produce, and stock. (Pipes, chips, software, custom wiring harnesses)
Comparison: Ingen sells the G3 4R intake for $200 and that's just a pipe, filter and some hoses. No chip, no sensor. I guess it's up to you to take the bulb out of your Check Engine Light.
Correct me if I'm wrong... you obviously know more about this stuff than I do. I'm kinda new to the mod game. (Though I'm learning a lot from the cp-e guys and this forum lately.)

Toysrme

I know I don't post here much (I don't even own a Toyota truck), but this is a bad idea. I also know I have discussed some of this a few times before, tho my 3vz-fe has little in common with your 3vz-e's. I still think I have insite that is useful, so here goes!
*Does* what they are trying to sell work? It does on other cars. But the cars they are using them on have MAF's all ready! MAF's are not user adjustable, but your stock AFM's are!!!
You can build a custom CAI for $15 at Lowes, and gain the "ECU programming" capability simply by cutting the top of your AFM's off, and adjusting them.

Stopping to consider a CAI doesn't make that much power on any near stock (read that as not FI) Toyota v6's I've been around, and you can re-tune the AFM and ignition (Distributor) without spending a cent. Sorry guys... I'll take gaining 90% of what the possibly could for free, and the last 10% from the CAI from $15 @ Lowes.

Doing some reading, even tho yalls 3vz-e's got castrated with the small denso AFM. I still have doubts that it's hurting you at all. Not even with headers, a CAI, and a full exhaust. That same size AFM does a good job on the few modified 2vz-fe's (essentially the same powerband, just on a 2.5L DOHC v6) floating around in the ES 250 / Camry world.


I can tell you two ways how to "prove" once and for all if your engines are really restricted by the stock AFM because of it's size...
1) Put a multi meter on the VS line. With the key ON (engine not running) push the flap 100% open with your hand & record the voltage.

Now make several full throttle runs. If it's not over 90-95% of the maximum output, YOUR AFM IS NOT TOO SMALL!!! LoL! Cut the top off and adjust the fuel a bit.


2) This method is going to be even more entertaining!
If they can't make 25-30bhp off that thing, IMHO you guys are completely getting ripped off. Like I said, you can make around 10hp (peak, mostly at the mid-high rpm) simply by playing with the AFM's on everything I've come into contact: 3s-fe's 3s-ge's, 2vz-fe's, and 3vz-fe's. I doubt the 3vz-e is any different in that Toyota set them up extremely rich from the factory. It may not help yall as much, as the rest of the engines all can rev far higher where it makes more of a change. (7000rpm)

So that being said, MAFci simply leaning the stock fuel curve will pick up 10 peak, CAI 5 peak. Anything else gained is from the MAF being larger than the stock AFM. So in my mind, if they can't make 25-30hp, yall just got screwed into buying an AFM, CAI, and a bad piggyback.




Finally $500-700 for a conversion!?!?!?!? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
I bought a cheap wire feed welder, auto darkening helmet and the materials to cheaply get a turbo on my ES 300 (3vz-fe) for way less than $700. (I'm around $500 right now, and need about $15 worth of parts. Piping is all most done. I will have it running by the end of *this* week if I get the chances to work on it I need).

Don't take anything I said personally (Because I *admit* I am ranting & rambling, and don't own a 3vz-e) But I think you guys are going down the "slightly wrong path" for more power.




phorensic, great question, but you have asked it in an un-answerable form. AFM /MAF are Mass sensors. They can not read any amount of *boost*. They read the mass of the air entering the engine.

The correct question to ask would be "What is the maximum mass of airflow they can read accurately". Then you reference that against the mass of flow you believe the engine will be using with whatever turbo / supercharger you are trying to use.

Toysrme

All of that being said, I really like Bumpin' Yota's approach. He has swapped to a larger AFM, and we can see what kind of differance, both a larger AFM & AFM cog adjustment can make power wise combined with a great high-flow intake.

I would seriously suggest that if he can't make more than 15hp stock, to not buy a sub 20hp+ MAFci for $500. The performance wouldn't deserve the price in my book.




I assume the MAFci has been used on Denso AFM cars? I just want to make sure they know that Denso AFM's need to output the fuel pressure ON signal, along with VS, and IAT data.

axon

Looks like I'm the guinea pig for this one. I have an appt on Thursday with CP-E. Please if you have a questions you want addressed post them here so I can get them answered for you. I'll admit I dont know alot about this area of my Runner, but sounds good so far.

When talking to the shop they told me we were next in the "proto" phase, but it would be be a few weeks.

Toysrme: I will get answers to your questions.

phorensic

MAFs are user adjustable with the right electronics. It's the 21st century, laptops are all around us. I work at a computer shop and have been working on computers for 9 years now. I'm sure I could find a way to tune a MAF on my 3vze with a laptop.

I realize that they don't have a pressure gauge. They measure the voltage coming off a heated wire. More air=cooler wire...blah blah blah.... When people talk about cars that are boosted and they start getting into very high boost (1 BAR++) they often refer to their stock MAF as not being able to "sense" more than 1 BAR of boost. They get upgraded MAFs that allow them to run more than 1 BAR. You are correct in that what they really means is that they need to sense more than..ohhh... 752.765 CFM of air. It's just a quicker explanation to measure with boost because most people don't know how much air is flowing out of their turbo and down their intake. Hell I have no idea how much my 3vze flows, maybe 342.125 CFM? hehe j/k man

axon

no more questions or comments?

phorensic

What size cone filter can you fit on the end? I think we would all prefer 3".

livelarg

yeah, what can I do for now to get more power. Tell em to hurry up!

axon

ok, just got back from the shop about an hour ago. These guys know their stuff. After about an hour talking and a tour I went for a test ride in Down2TheC's Solaris that had the MAFci replacement and boy did it ride sweet, he will be in the area for a few day so I'm sure he will tell ya'll about it when he gets home.

They are using 3.5 inch AFE Cone Filter rated to over 600hp. The intake will be either 3 or 3.5 inch mandrel bent aluminum pipe that will be powdercoated stardust silver. They are early in the planning phase for this project so more will come in a couple of weeks when I hand over my baby. They feel to that should be able to gain 20-30 hp no problem and it will have no problem handleing 1 bar Boost ( not sure what that means, but you guys asked). The MAF will come as tunable or untunable (your choice) with a base map already programed. I also voiced a concern of mine with the cone filter and dirt,dust and sand from offroading, they have some ideas for this and will work it out.

Please add you questions and comments. If this works out, maybe we can get them to fab some more stuff for us.

Ax

rocket

iTrader: (1)

I know its probably too soon but did they give you an estimate of when they expect to have this completed? I would think a lot of trial and error would have to take place since this is the first mod of its kind on our 3.0s
I hope it works out cause i'l be one of the first guys to buy one.

I still say they should forget the powder coating. It just creates extra cost that i dont care for. If they insist on PC, then it should be an option.

phorensic

Wow, this is really working out!

About the extra filtering for off-road use. We, in the desert racing community, use pre-filters wrapped around gauze type cone filters (K&N type). There are two types, one is like a very fine fabric mesh (plastic type material), the other is a 1/2" thick foam material.

In my experience, the foam type has worked better and that's what we use on our Class 5 Open race buggy. This foam, when properly oiled, will filter out 500 miles of dust, silt, and sand from the various terrain on a desert course. You rock guys obviously won't have a problem with filtration if you put one on. We use the UNI foam pre-filters, and my buddy does on his prerunner also. I would expect to clean the pre-filter and the filter after a couple thousand street miles, once every dusty desert trip, or 2-3 rock crawling outings. I'm surprised how much more power I have after I clean my filter after sucking dust from other prerunners out in the desert!

rocket

iTrader: (1)

update?

jimbo74

i was reading some of this... and a maf that has a special chip that tricks the ecm to adjsuting the fuel curve? sounds like te $.05 resistor IAT mod that doesnt work on todays computer controlled cars because the computer knows its being screwed with and goes into limp mode......

axon

Jim,

Check out their website, it might be able to give you some more info on this topic. They get their chips from overseas and build their own programable board for them. The way I look at it is, if your actually getting more air, and the ECU adjusts the fuel are you tricking the computer? or is it doing what it is susposed to? As the amount of air changes the fuel also changes. I may be totally wrong with the last statement. Bottom line is if it dosent produce results, on paper at the wheels, it wont be marketed.

They gave me a lot of info on Thursday and a lot was over my head
But they sold me, so I will see when they are done and will let you all know. I have nothing to lose.

Down2TheC

... and you'd be wrong.
Tech answer: The VAFM has a range of voltages to send the ECM. The final output of this chip uses that range to control the mixture by giving the ECM inputs that produce a certain result. They "Tune" it for each RPM/airflow set so that they can get the most efficient mix and thus the most power. (I think every 100rpm)
Non-Tech Answer: As you said yourself... a $.05 resistor mod doesn't work. This chip does work because it's smart enough to take several inputs and decide on the proper output. My Solara is running one right now and I just did 1000 miles on Saturday with no complaints from the ECU. Guess it doesn't know it's being "screwed".
It's like the Split Second calibrator but tuned for the 3.0.
http://www.splitsec.com/mafkits/universalkits.htm

axon

I tried...

.... I'll go to the back of the class now. :cry:

Glad your back Mike.

Down2TheC

Hey man, you got it right. Just adding. You really aren't tricking the ECU in the initial conversion. You're translating for the sensor in order to tell the ECU the right flow rate. Once you tune it with the map, then you're "tricking" it into doing what you want. Everything you said was true. Back to the head of the class! axon 1, jimabena74 0. I'm sure Bumpin' will call us on any mistakes we make in the tech stuff. With the stuff he's into, I consider him our technical editor.

Down2TheC

To give you an idea, my Solara short ram was a first for the engine. It took 2 weeks to know if it would make power with the added flow, then 2 more weeks before they had a proto pipe built and the tuning complete. Might happen quicker since axon is local. They knew they had my car for 5 weeks so they didn't rush. Either way, within two weeks of drop off we should know if they are proceeding with the project. (i.e. there's unused ponies hiding in our engine.) They wouldn't produce if it was a low power boost. HP/$$$ ratio has to be realistic for the market. I'm sure axon will keep us aprised of the timeline as it's happening.

BTW... if anyone wants to hear a solara with a 3.5" intake - Hear the Pipe!