russcron

Hello Fellow Yodoids,

I hope one of you may have come across this failure mode. I'm stumped. My 1990 3VZE 4Runner has 330K miles (new bottom end and heads rebuilt at 200K) and it has been runnin' like a 4Runner should. The engine is stock except for a K&N intake system.

Last week it stalled 1/4 mi after a cold start. It was like the fuel was switched off or the ignition was killed. It was running perfectly up to the stall. It would not re-start. The battery is good and it spins really well but no ignition. So I drag it back to the house, let it sit overnight and it fires right up.

I had a little chat with it and showed it a little engine love here and there but I could not find any smoking guns. (I could not get an error code either but the check engine light did come on when it failed.)

So I figure maybe it can be attributed to cosmic dust and I fire it up and drive the same route as the day before and it stalls at exactly the same spot 1/4 mile from the house in exactly the same fashion.

I confess that I don't know if it has spark when it fails so that will likely be the next test.

Would a 19 year old fuel filter cause it to halt within 50 feet twice in a row?

Does anyone have any idea what's up here?

Thanks for the wealth of info here and for any help that yodas can offer.

-Russ

yoterr

possibly...maybe its halfway clogged, but when you start it the truck starts out with full pressure then down the road it cant suck enough gas?? but i would think this would result in more of a stumbling stall then just a cut off, maybe its a knock sensor? i know in other vehicles ive had that will kill it, wont fire, then hour later it mysteriously starts fine..

russcron

I hear 'ya. At first I though the alarm system was immobilizing the car. If the knock sensosr can turn the car off you may be on to it. I replaced it when I rebuilt the engine but still..

This is of course one of the nightmare scenarios; the sucker is a bear to get at. I hear you can jump it however...

Thanks for your reply!!

-Russ

TNRabbit

DEFINITELY replace the fuel filter; not sure if that's your problem but JEEZ; 19 YEARS?!? The only other thing I could think of that might cause your problem is a short in the wiring to your VAFM, Ignitor, or fuel pump. While it's running, wiggle through the wiring to those items...

j.dunning

I had a honda years ago that had the same symptoms. It would run for about a quarter mile then die. After it sat for a while it would start right up then die a quarter mile later. It turned out to be a bad distributor cap. The pin at the top of the cap had broken. You might not have the same problem but it's worth checking.

jon

DJ99

My first thought was something to do with coolant temperature. As soon as you get warmed up (at 1/4 mile out), some temp related change cuts out your vehicle. I'm not an expert, but maybe others could chime in with possibilities.

russcron

I'll look at all the things you guys suggested this weekend. Changing the fuel filer will be a bear as only the input flair nut will turn. The output rounded off. I may have to cut the fuel line about 8 inches from the output and stub in a short new piece to the filter. I'll never get the whole line out. Toyota put it in an imppossible location along the frame.

I'm leaning toward those ideas that something is commanding the engine to stop - like a bad temp or knock sensor. I'll soon know if I have spark and that should narrow things down.

Does anyone know if the engine management system stops the car by killing the ignition or the fuel system????

Russ

bugs1961

I doubt that a sensor will cause the engine to just quit. The ECM has backup modes to allow the engine to run with preset logic to have a "limp home" capability. And if a sensor has failed it will generate a code. It is normal for the check engine light to be on anytime the key is in the "on" position and the engine isn't running. It will go out right after the engine starts if no codes are set. If the computer is causing this you would have a code.

As mentioned above, you most likely have a fuel delivery or ignition problem. Heat causes increased resistance in electrical systems so if the fuel pump or the ignition coil have a problem they could fail after they get warm.

You can check if the fuel pump is working by shorting the FP and B+ terminals in the check connector with a short piece of wire and the key in the "on" position. You will hear the pump running and fuel flowing in the pipes in the engine compartment. Try this with the engine cold and again with it hot after it quits.

Check for spark after it dies by pulling the wire off a spark plug (#1 is easy to get to), and clamping an alligator clip to the inside terminal. Hold the alligator clip about a quarter inch from the block and look for a spark while someone else cranks the engine. Hold onto the rubber boot and be careful not to touch the metal or you'll wish you hadn't big time.

Good luck,
Bugs

bugs1961

I have replaced the exact fuel pipe for the same reason. It was a bear but can be done. I ordered a new one from Toyota in order to get the right pipe. The fuel pump puts out high pressure and normal rubber fuel hose can't handle it (which is why metal pipes are used from the pump to the fuel rail.) There is special fuel injection rubber hose available but you still have to connect it to the filter somehow. Special clamps are also used to seal the hose where it joins a metal nipple. Regular screw-type clamps are not strong or secure enough for a fuel injection hose.

A high pressure fuel leak under the truck and only a couple of feet away from the exhaust is a recipe for becoming a star on the local news as your truck goes up in flames. Take the time to replace the pipe and drive without constantly checking for fumes and flames. Your loved ones will thank you.

Bugs

russcron

- setting the Monongahela National Forest on fire would be so hard to live down. Good advice. Thanks!

-Russ

jasonbrink

I agree that the potential for fire seems more likely with a rubber fuel line, but according to the FSM, the fuel pressure is only 38-44 psi. Is that really all that high? It seems like a good quality rubber fuel line would be able to handle that with regular hose clamps just fine.

BUT- better safe than sorry I guess.

toyscraps

Air hoses on the equipment at work are held on with simple clamps, and are up to 130psi. Some don't even have clamps, just a barbed fitting.

that said, I would probably use the proper steel line too.

russcron

This time I was able to capture an EFI code when attempting to duplicate the failure. I could not make it stall by driving in circles around the house but I did get code 14 after trying. I can't tax the engine very hard at the house. (I really did not want to ask my wife to tow me in again so I stayed off the blacktop.)

My factory service manual says code 14 is from the igniter or coil but some on-line resources also state that it could be the distributor. My cap, rotor and electronic points are visibly AOK. I replaced the entire distributor when I re-built it about 100K ago.

So, off I go to the dealership for an igniter. If no joy, a coil and if still if not, a distributor.

Any thoughts you guys have about this are gratefully appreciated.

BTW: I'm gonna change that #$% fuel filter if it kills me.


-Russ

russcron

Many of you pointed to that signal from the igniter to the ECU..

I re-seated the multi-pin connector at the ignitor and I tried to find the other connectors en-route to the ECU and did the same.

Lo and behold: I drove it on a 20 mile round trip and there were no codes.

I'm a little weary of this kind of 'fix' but so far so good.

Thanks everyone for a fun discussion.

Russ

russcron

Fellow Toy Lovers:

This stalling problem has taken me all over the engine and even into the passenger compartment.

I am really thankful to the guys at the Alexandria (VA) Toyota Parts Department who were not in disagreement with the igniter diagnosis but suggested that, since the part is so expensive, I should talk to one of the dealership's Master Mechanics.

He unselfishly shared years of experience on this and we discussed 5 or 6 possibilities while he should have been enjoying lunch. High on his list was to look for corroded (green rot) wires and connectors under the carpet in the vicinity of the ECU (front passenger right foot) that lead back to the fuel pump. OK, it makes sense that an open ckt to the pump would make a fuel injected car come to an immediate halt. It could happen after a high resistance joint gets hot and refuses to pass electricity after some period of time.

So I remove the right front door carpet threshold, the ECU cover panel and pull the carpet back... eureka baby!! There's an in-line connector with green crud that probably glows in the dark. I started to open it up and the line-side (hot) wire disintegrated and fell out of the connector shell. Ah Ha, venerable Master Mechanic is Superman.

Well, almost. The bad wire turned out to be the 12 V line to the Toyota alarm system. I cut out the bad wire and spliced it back together.

The car has made ten 25 mile round trips without a surprise shut down since. I have two possible root cause ideas.

One, the alarm system was going loco under all that low voltage and DC noise and it decided to immobilize the car (if it can even do so).

Two, the ugly DC noise, voltage and current fluctuation in the immediate electrical vicinity of the ECU suitably pissed it off such that it failed to function and hence, by-by engine.

Or three, I don't have a clue.

I hope this helps anyone that has a similar problem. My lesson learned is that a shade tree mechanic can make an expensive mistake without the guidance of a pro when big money is at stake.

-Russ

mmcpeck

Whichever of your idea's of the cause is true, at least you fixed the problem and got it running.

Did you ever replace the fuel filter? I read another post on here that Toyota used "lifetime" filters on these trucks and that you didn't need to replace them.

Mine is 18 years old, but only has 100K on it in those 18 years. I can tell it's original by the rust it's encased in, and it doesn't look fun at all to attempt changing it.

Rippinthewaves

I had a similar problem. Drove my brand new 22re on her first one hour voyage. About 80 minutes in, purring, she just shut down. It was wet and cold. I didn't want to get out. It started up, got another 10miles and again. At this point I got myself towed to the shop, where I was going to work. It started up at the end of the day and drove home no studder not one ever since. My truck won't start anymore if its been raining hard. I pray for dry weather so i can get to school. Master Mech friend pointed me to circuit open relay...I'm throwing codes 5, 10,11...she's still running and spinning tires all over town....

russcron

That's interesting about the evil fuel filter. Lifetime sounds pretty good; I'll go with that. I'm at 320,000 miles and 20 years and I have good fuel pressure so I guess they hold up pretty well. I was unable to change mine. Too much corrosion on the output flair nut. I have a nice new paper weight however. I think there is a pre-filter in the gas tank so perhaps these do last forever.

That 22re thing sounds like a classic wet ignition thing. But then I first thought my problem was fuel or ignition and it was a corroded power line to the alarm.

mmcpeck

Anybody know for a fact about the "lifetime" filters?

TNRabbit

There is no way in hell a fuel filter will last for the lifetime of THESE vehicles. I've replaced mine twice in 240,000 miles (@ every 100k) and will continue to do so as long as she carries me down the road.