Headbolt Dilema
#41
..... Read the post again. If the HEAD is shaved, then the distance between the head and the bolt-head surface is greater (your bolt is just as long as before, but the head is now shorter)
#42
Contributing Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,787
Likes: 36
From: TENN Native Languishing in Virginia
Maybe I'm an idiot, but how does the distance between the head-bolt surface and the head change? The head bolt rests directly on the head. If anything, you will get MORE threads into the block & a GREATER capability to excert force. I thought that was his whole point; that you LOSE torque capability when you resurface....????
#44
Well this post is over a month old. I've used copper spray on the block side of every motor I've built. The head wasnt just resurfaced, I had it shaved down a hair more to boost compression a little bit so a thicker gasket would just eliminate my gains. Everything torqued down fine. From what I've seen 22r motors have a few more threads down in the block then the bolt goes on a stock head. The $30 Felpro gaskets are ok but for $10 more I got the toyota gasket and it is much better product then the felpro, The truck has been running amazing for weeks now, holds 45 lbs of oil pressure at idle and with the other mods I did it pulls alot harder now. New cam is broken in properly now and have had no problems with anything
#45
You are missing the fact that if you cut the head, you retard the cam on a 22R! You will need to get an adjustable cam gear and advance the cam to compensate for the retard or you will loose power. I believe you can extrapolate from the following: Cut 0.100 from the head and you will retard the cam by 10 degrees. Since the cam gear has 36 teeth, you can simply advance the cam gear to the chain by one tooth to fix a 10 deg retard with respect to the cam. Any other numbers will require and adjustable gear = $100.
Regarding TTY bolts, I have yet to understand why Toyota put a sticker on the valve cover of 3.0L motors to torque initially and then torque twice more by cranking the wrench 90 degrees twice. WTF? You can put the used bolts in the oven at 450 degrees to normalize them and then torque the heads to 55 ft/lbs except for the short one which is 35 ft/lbs on a 3.0L. If the head bolts have really been yielded, then they have been work hardened and prone to brittle breaking. Been doing normalizing for years with NO problems but you got to chase the threads to clean them up and tap the block threads. Use anti-seize on all threads.
Regarding TTY bolts, I have yet to understand why Toyota put a sticker on the valve cover of 3.0L motors to torque initially and then torque twice more by cranking the wrench 90 degrees twice. WTF? You can put the used bolts in the oven at 450 degrees to normalize them and then torque the heads to 55 ft/lbs except for the short one which is 35 ft/lbs on a 3.0L. If the head bolts have really been yielded, then they have been work hardened and prone to brittle breaking. Been doing normalizing for years with NO problems but you got to chase the threads to clean them up and tap the block threads. Use anti-seize on all threads.
Last edited by SEAIRESCUE; Jun 7, 2007 at 06:17 PM.
#46
The head wasnt even shaved a full .10th? What are symptom of needing to adjust it. I set timing and adjusted valves and have noticed alot more power. Why would the cam need to adjusted if all your doing is just raising compression a very little bit?
#47
Physics 101 - Elasticity
Bolts are made to be elastic... built to stretch measured in MPa.
This is the main reason ARP recommends to use strectch gauges to
install bolts in stead or torque wrenches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolted_joint
The short answer is do to the lifecycle of the engine heating and cooling. The cycling of the tempurature will cause fatigue and the bolts will loose their elasticity. Beleive it or not when the bolts are removed they are supposed to
return to their natural length. The stretcing of the bolt is what causes the clamping (preload) on the materials joined.
So an example is a headbolt which is say 10 inches long before installed.
The bolt is torqued and stretchs to say 10.25.
Over time the bolt fatigues and looses its elasticity and will not return to 10 inches if and when removed.
So reuisng the bolt that is now 10.25 and shaving a head .010 or .020 will result in a bolt that is supposed to be 10 inches is now 10.26(.010) or
10.27(.020) so the bolt is truelly longer which is why some people cut a row or two off the threads of the bolt.
Lastly, The main reason 7MGTE lovers go back an re-torque the old head bolts a little extra to get some more life out of them..:
This is the main reason ARP recommends to use strectch gauges to
install bolts in stead or torque wrenches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolted_joint
The short answer is do to the lifecycle of the engine heating and cooling. The cycling of the tempurature will cause fatigue and the bolts will loose their elasticity. Beleive it or not when the bolts are removed they are supposed to
return to their natural length. The stretcing of the bolt is what causes the clamping (preload) on the materials joined.
So an example is a headbolt which is say 10 inches long before installed.
The bolt is torqued and stretchs to say 10.25.
Over time the bolt fatigues and looses its elasticity and will not return to 10 inches if and when removed.
So reuisng the bolt that is now 10.25 and shaving a head .010 or .020 will result in a bolt that is supposed to be 10 inches is now 10.26(.010) or
10.27(.020) so the bolt is truelly longer which is why some people cut a row or two off the threads of the bolt.
Lastly, The main reason 7MGTE lovers go back an re-torque the old head bolts a little extra to get some more life out of them..:
Last edited by ToyotaGuru; Jun 8, 2007 at 08:07 AM.
#48
Very good point, this motor only has 45k on it, so the bolts arent that old. I have seen friends rebuild 200+k 22rs and have problems. Mine torqued down fine and I was extra careful putting everything back together, This top end rebuild took 2 months just cause of me be extra careful on everything (Everything I can afford that is)
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