95RunnerSAS

I just got done replacing both heads on my '95 4runner because both #5 and #6 cylinders had no compression. I did a leak-down test and both cylinders had air escaping past the exhaust valve. I took them to the machine shop and they said they were both warped and they wanted $750 to recondition them.

The heads I installed were taken off a good running '90 motor(which also requires using the timing belt and tensioner from the early style when swapping onto a later model block). Anyway, I got it all put back together using a gasket set and new headbolts from engnbldr(great service btw!), and it fired up and ran great, but I haven't been able to drive it because the sas isn't complete.

I realized after it was all put together that I forgot to use washers with the new headbolts. My question is, is this going to cause a problem or will it be fine. I plan on swapping in a 3.4 within 2 years.

rdlsz24

Check out this thread: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116/embarrassing-3-0-head-installation-issues-99123/

He had a similiar problem.

Rob

95RunnerSAS

I read his thread, but I guess I was wondering what exactly will happen if I run it the way it is. Everything went smooth when I torqued the headbolts using the three step torque sequence, and the bolts didn't bottom out that I could tell.

95RunnerSAS

Nobody knows??

toyota_mdt_tech

Try it and you let us know.

95RunnerSAS

Thanks for the useless reply, and from a MASTER TOYOTA TECHNICIAN none the less. I wanted to know if it was going to blow the headgaskets or whatever before I start driving it, because if it is, I want to fix it and make it right because it will be my daily driver and only vehicle.

toyota_mdt_tech

:complain:No one knows, no one that I know has been that **** to re-install the headbolts without washers. Heck, if they came out with washers, wouldnt you want them back on? So I guess I dont have answer, and I have never seen nor heard of it being done, well, not until I signed up on the "yotatech" forum! Instead of being lazy and trying to look for a reason not to fix it right and barking at everyone else, why dont you just dig and and get it done, make it right. Problem solved.

hannamet

Easy guys, easy. Lets keep it technical. The head bolts should be replaced when taken out. They are stretch-to-yield. Don't re-use. The washers are to allow a consistent sliding surface for the bottom side of the hardened bolt flange so torquing is uniform for all bolts. OK to re-use the washers. The washers also protect the aluminum heads from damage by the much harder bolts. The bolts head should "slip" against the washer, not the head aluminum. If you did it without washers, you hopefully had some slickum, (residual oil), under the bolt heads to minimize damage and allow easy slip to attain correct torque. Hope that helps answer your question. Brad

95RunnerSAS

Brad, thanks for the reply. That's what I was looking for. I put some of the lube that came with the new headbolts under the bolt head and a liberal coating on the threads as well so hopefully they got the right torque. I think I'm gonna go ahead and run it and if it blows I guess that means I get a 3.4.

thook

Duuuuuude! Don't run it! Seriously! You could talk to Ted at engnbldr and he'll tell exactly why it's going to fail, but since you read the thread about my mistake I'm pretty sure the info is all there. All I can say, is if you redo it it will save you a lot of money real soon...unless the money and time are not an issue for you. BTW, Ted's bolts are reusable. But, you will probably find that when you go to pull the headbolts the bolt heads will have stressed and cracked....and some will pop right off. That's why it will fail. Not using washers/spacers will not give you a correct torque. Believe me. I spent hours drilling out two to get the head to pop off.

EDIT: Just so it's clear, Ted's headbolts are reusable, but under the circumstances having not used the washers I WOULD NOT try reusing them. Two bolts head snapped off, but there were three others getting ready to. I also replaced that head gasket. Oh, yeah...and be sure to chase the threads if you hadn't already. And one last thing, don't over oil the head bolts. Some will leak onto the gasket before you have a chance to tighten everything down. Bad news!

Bumpin' Yota

LMFAO!!!!

Ok 95RunnerSAS, welcome to the forum! Word of advice, dont take what people say so personally. This forum is much more laid back than Pirate and others and you are going to get a few jokesters in every thread. Nature of the beast on this forum. Toyota mdt tech is a good guy and is usually a TON of help on almost ALL of his posts. I got the impression that he posted that first post so that he'd be subcribed to the thread to gather information on this problem, to let you know that he wanted to know what you found out, and be humorous (comic relief) at the same time. (For one I love comic relief and have needed in the past while starting my top end rebuild.) I dont think anything he said was really directed at you nor intended to be specifically deroggatory to you. Just relax and if it bugs ya, PM him or talk to a mod about it. Now go drink a beer, enjoy the day outside, and relax, life's too short to get upset on an internet forum.

To your problem, personally I'd yank those bolts out and do it over again. Aluminum is going to expand and contract as the engine is heat cycled. Imagine the aluminum around the bolt heads - each time the aluminum cools its going to try slide back under the headbolt...the headbolt being 100's of times harder is going to start shaving aluminum each time this heat cycle occurs. Evenually you will loose all clamping force when the headbolts have dug into your heads a good bit. Or as the other guy said, the heads of the headbolts could be getting ready to pop off due to the excessive torsional force applied without the washers being present.... I would DEFINATELY redo it. Good luck with whatever decision you make on it though.

Toyota MDT tech - bad tech! No ramen noodles for you! *Throws balloon filled with 30w motor oil at mdt tech*

toyota_mdt_tech

Yeah, kinda what I was thinking too. You might want to explain to him how the "emoticons" work.

MonsterMaxx

95RunnerSAS, washers are there to protect the head from the torqing of the bolts.
I think it it were me and I'd F'd up and left the washers out, but had it all assembled I'd leave it alone.

The flange on the headbolt is nearly the same size as the washer. The torque spec (torque wrench part of the operation) is pretty low so you probably got good #s there. The rest of the operation won't care.

It's likely that you did a little damage to the head from all the force, but taking them out and adding washers now won't undo the damage.

My 2 cents is that you
-accept that you F'd up
-apologize to MDT
-and run it as is.

thook

Then you and he will both be lookin' to rebuild, I promise you. You'd be amazed at what a difference that little spacer will make when torquing down. And those bolts are under ALOT of torque once you've turned 'em 1/4 twice past the torque spec. If the initial torquing isn't right the rest of the operation won't be either. Think WRONG multiplied! Ted at engnbldr told me a story where he reused some Toy headbolts on a top end rebuild. Next day when he went back a couple of bolt heads had just popped right off. I realize that's with the TTY headbolts, but that just illustrates what will happen if the bolts are too stressed. Man, it's not that big of a deal to just go back and redo it compared to redoing it after it's all blown. But, hey, it's not my motor...do what you want.

Also, when I redid mine, I had no damage to the head save a little shaving of aluminum on the spacer bearing surface. But, the head did not warp one bit.

Jmc1264

That is how to answer a guys question