Gear oil requirements for 87 4x4
Oct 28, 2012 | 03:47 PM
#61
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,787
Likes: 36
From: TENN Native Languishing in Virginia
I don't see any reason to use GL-4 rated oil for the transfer case. GL-4 is essentially only for syncro engagement. The transfer case isn't shifted while the geartrain is in motion. That said, the difference in corrosion resistance and detergents hardly seems like it's worth changing it out. Not like you'll really ever change the transmission oil again anyway.
Oct 29, 2012 | 06:08 PM
#62
"The transfer case isn't shifted while the geartrain is in motion."
x2 TNRabbit.....
You've never shifted a manual transfer case while the truck was moving? You're kidding I hope..... I drive with the hubs locked and in 2wd. When I need 4wd, shift into 4HI and magic happens....it goes into four wheel with the truck in motion and back again. My 96 Ford that I plowed with...shift into 4wd and back while driving.
"Not like you'll really ever change the transmission oil again anyway."
That's why there are "difficult" transmissions....because people don't change the tranny lube on a regular basis when they should and get all the residual metal shavings out of the system. Change the fluid in the tranny and TC every 30k miles.
ShotsnBeer, you should have no problem w the MT90 in the case. I ran that in my 88 for 75k miles and had no problems. But that was with regular changes. The only reason I would drop the MT90 I just put into my case is because I have just recently read about and thought about using GL5 in the transfer case. I happen to have some Mobil 1 75w90 GL5 sitting around also. I would drain the new MT90 into a clean container and save it for the next time.
x2 TNRabbit.....
You've never shifted a manual transfer case while the truck was moving? You're kidding I hope..... I drive with the hubs locked and in 2wd. When I need 4wd, shift into 4HI and magic happens....it goes into four wheel with the truck in motion and back again. My 96 Ford that I plowed with...shift into 4wd and back while driving.
"Not like you'll really ever change the transmission oil again anyway."
That's why there are "difficult" transmissions....because people don't change the tranny lube on a regular basis when they should and get all the residual metal shavings out of the system. Change the fluid in the tranny and TC every 30k miles.
ShotsnBeer, you should have no problem w the MT90 in the case. I ran that in my 88 for 75k miles and had no problems. But that was with regular changes. The only reason I would drop the MT90 I just put into my case is because I have just recently read about and thought about using GL5 in the transfer case. I happen to have some Mobil 1 75w90 GL5 sitting around also. I would drain the new MT90 into a clean container and save it for the next time.
Oct 29, 2012 | 06:36 PM
#63
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 179
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From: Twin Cities, MN
Ok wow...
The maintenance schedule calls for replacement of the oil only on schedule A which is the heavy duty use category. My truck is my daily driver and occasional delivery vehicle. I'd be throwing money down the drain for no reason replacing the oil every 2 years, hence the schedule B is inspecting. I drive more than average too so 30k miles would be less than 2 years. Sure you can do it, but there's absolutely no good reason to.
Into 4H I can see because you're not actually applying torque to the gears really, but into 4L when the oil properties will actually start to matter? Then you have to be stopped. I guess I wasn't that clear.
The maintenance schedule calls for replacement of the oil only on schedule A which is the heavy duty use category. My truck is my daily driver and occasional delivery vehicle. I'd be throwing money down the drain for no reason replacing the oil every 2 years, hence the schedule B is inspecting. I drive more than average too so 30k miles would be less than 2 years. Sure you can do it, but there's absolutely no good reason to.
Into 4H I can see because you're not actually applying torque to the gears really, but into 4L when the oil properties will actually start to matter? Then you have to be stopped. I guess I wasn't that clear.
Nov 3, 2012 | 07:03 PM
#64
Schedule A stated 15k miles. Schedule B said to inspect every 15K miles but I don't think that meant you didn't have to ever change it. I don't know where I got the 30k mile interval, maybe from my Ford manual? Oh well. I'm a fan of changing fluids. Please let me explain where my philosophy of regular fluid changes comes from. Bear with me on this one....
The windshield of my Ford says "OVERKILL" in chrome letters. It was put there by a friend of mine who "borrowed" my truck to do it because he knew how anal I was with maintenance. The stock auto tranny of my Ford had 91k miles on it and was still working but when we dumped the ATF to send it back for the core, the fluid had alot of clutch material in it which meant she was probably gonna be needing a rebuild soon. The point I am trying to make is that I made a stock E4OD (one of Ford's worse auto boxes) last 91k miles while doing commercial plowing. I was hearing horror stories of those trannys go out at 25k to 30k miles. I added a bigger pan, bigger cooler along with a second cooler, auxiliary spin on filter (w/a Filtermag) but the most important thing I did: CHANGE THE FLUID every year. I had a two way bypass valve set up in the return line back that I bought online. I would shut off the main line back and open it up right there to drain about 10 qts out. Refill, run and do it again. Refill and done. Some people would tell me I was crazy but the cost of two cases of Napa ATF was way cheaper than the cost of a new transmission.
On with the application to our Toyota trucks....mechanical systems such a transfer case, differential or manual transmission do not have any filtration built into them. When you change the fluid in them, you are not only putting in fresh, new fluid but you are also removing metal wear particles and probably moisture as well (from many, many heat/cool cycles). Kind of like changing brake fluid or hydraulic fluid in general to get rid of moisture, wear particles and spent fluid. Just because you use synthetic fluid doesn't mean you do not have to change the fluid anymore. Yes, they do allow a longer change interval but that is with something like the motor which has a filter. Even then, you should change the filter halfway through the interval if you are going to an extended change interval. The guys who run bypass filters on their vehicles with synthetic oil (like Amsoil or Redline) still have their oil analyzed by a lab to see what the motor is doing and also to see if they need to change that oil.
I have always erred on the side of safety. I have read here some guys go to 30k-40k miles on this stuff. I'm not telling anyone how often they have to change their fluids but for me, it makes sense. I'd rather spend a little money to save alot of money.
Talking about using four wheel, the most common use is high range. Most everyone knows you have to shift into low with the truck stationary. You didn't specify low range.
The windshield of my Ford says "OVERKILL" in chrome letters. It was put there by a friend of mine who "borrowed" my truck to do it because he knew how anal I was with maintenance. The stock auto tranny of my Ford had 91k miles on it and was still working but when we dumped the ATF to send it back for the core, the fluid had alot of clutch material in it which meant she was probably gonna be needing a rebuild soon. The point I am trying to make is that I made a stock E4OD (one of Ford's worse auto boxes) last 91k miles while doing commercial plowing. I was hearing horror stories of those trannys go out at 25k to 30k miles. I added a bigger pan, bigger cooler along with a second cooler, auxiliary spin on filter (w/a Filtermag) but the most important thing I did: CHANGE THE FLUID every year. I had a two way bypass valve set up in the return line back that I bought online. I would shut off the main line back and open it up right there to drain about 10 qts out. Refill, run and do it again. Refill and done. Some people would tell me I was crazy but the cost of two cases of Napa ATF was way cheaper than the cost of a new transmission.
On with the application to our Toyota trucks....mechanical systems such a transfer case, differential or manual transmission do not have any filtration built into them. When you change the fluid in them, you are not only putting in fresh, new fluid but you are also removing metal wear particles and probably moisture as well (from many, many heat/cool cycles). Kind of like changing brake fluid or hydraulic fluid in general to get rid of moisture, wear particles and spent fluid. Just because you use synthetic fluid doesn't mean you do not have to change the fluid anymore. Yes, they do allow a longer change interval but that is with something like the motor which has a filter. Even then, you should change the filter halfway through the interval if you are going to an extended change interval. The guys who run bypass filters on their vehicles with synthetic oil (like Amsoil or Redline) still have their oil analyzed by a lab to see what the motor is doing and also to see if they need to change that oil.
I have always erred on the side of safety. I have read here some guys go to 30k-40k miles on this stuff. I'm not telling anyone how often they have to change their fluids but for me, it makes sense. I'd rather spend a little money to save alot of money.
Talking about using four wheel, the most common use is high range. Most everyone knows you have to shift into low with the truck stationary. You didn't specify low range.
Last edited by daved5150; Nov 3, 2012 at 07:25 PM.
Dec 6, 2012 | 05:21 AM
#65
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 159
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From: Durango, Colorado
This has been a very imformative thread. Thanks everybody.
I'm getting ready to put my 5-speed back into my '84 PU and had the GL4/5 all ready to go. After reading this, I searched high and low for a gallon of GL4 that I could get before Saturday in central PA. Not one of the auto parts store had any, A&A, Autozone, Napa, nor Advanced Auto carried it. They'd all say "Yeah, we got it" until I'd clarify, no "Just GL4".
So I thought I'd call around to the transmission shops around here to see if they had any they'd be willing to part with. None had any, either.
Getting Redline shipped here by Saturday put the cost around $100.00 and I didn't want to do that.
One transmission shop, after discussion my situation with him briefly, suggested using 10W40 Motor Oil! He said as long as it's a light duty, low-HP application, the motor oil makes the synchros work a lot better and shift smoother. He said he's used it quite a bit, and has had great results.
Has anybody heard of doing this? I'm very leery of not just going with the GL4/5 and having it be acceptable, but I'm curious about using synthetic 10W40 instead if it'll make for a smoother shift without affecting wear too much.
Thoughts?
I'm getting ready to put my 5-speed back into my '84 PU and had the GL4/5 all ready to go. After reading this, I searched high and low for a gallon of GL4 that I could get before Saturday in central PA. Not one of the auto parts store had any, A&A, Autozone, Napa, nor Advanced Auto carried it. They'd all say "Yeah, we got it" until I'd clarify, no "Just GL4".
So I thought I'd call around to the transmission shops around here to see if they had any they'd be willing to part with. None had any, either.
Getting Redline shipped here by Saturday put the cost around $100.00 and I didn't want to do that.
One transmission shop, after discussion my situation with him briefly, suggested using 10W40 Motor Oil! He said as long as it's a light duty, low-HP application, the motor oil makes the synchros work a lot better and shift smoother. He said he's used it quite a bit, and has had great results.
Has anybody heard of doing this? I'm very leery of not just going with the GL4/5 and having it be acceptable, but I'm curious about using synthetic 10W40 instead if it'll make for a smoother shift without affecting wear too much.
Thoughts?
Dec 6, 2012 | 07:50 AM
#66
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
From: Twin Cities, MN
Don't use motor oil. Not in our transmissions. You could do it and I don't think you'd blow up your transmission. But your shifts will be bad and you MIGHT increase wear. GL4/5 would be better than motor oil.
I understand that you might NEED to get it done by Saturday. If so, use GL4/5 and trade it out in a year or two. If you can wait, order a couple quarts off Amazon with standard shipping. 15$ a quart (remember you only need 3) and free "super saver" shipping and you're good to go at just 45$. But you won't get it until next week.
I understand that you might NEED to get it done by Saturday. If so, use GL4/5 and trade it out in a year or two. If you can wait, order a couple quarts off Amazon with standard shipping. 15$ a quart (remember you only need 3) and free "super saver" shipping and you're good to go at just 45$. But you won't get it until next week.
Dec 6, 2012 | 08:25 AM
#67
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 159
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From: Durango, Colorado
Thanks Jerry. I need to get it done this weekend for my own piece of mind. I've had the thing apart since September and my garage packed with stuff. Have it all back under the truck will be nice.
I'm probably going to try Royal Purple's Max Gear 75w90 GL4/GL5 Oil in the Tranny and regular gear oil in the TC. At least this way, I'll be able to tell everybody how the Royal Purple works.
I'm probably going to try Royal Purple's Max Gear 75w90 GL4/GL5 Oil in the Tranny and regular gear oil in the TC. At least this way, I'll be able to tell everybody how the Royal Purple works.
Dec 6, 2012 | 09:00 AM
#68
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 474
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From: Red Bay, NW Forida
Would this be the same for an '85 manual 4x4? I know the SFA might make the required amount a little different.
Dec 6, 2012 | 09:33 AM
#69
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 179
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From: Twin Cities, MN
GL4 in the transfer case is acceptable, but unnecessary. Toss some considerably cheaper gl4/5 in and call it good. Everything that makes GL4 different from GL5 doesn't make any difference to the transfer case.
Sadly I don't have a 3rd gen FSM, just the 4th gen. BUT I assume it's not terribly different. For my truck, it's 3 quarts for the transmission and another 1.6 quarts for the transfer case.
Rear diff is 2.2 quarts, front is 1.7 quarts. But you'll want straight GL5 for this. You can use anything that says good for differentials including anything with limited slip differential (LSD) additives.
Sadly I don't have a 3rd gen FSM, just the 4th gen. BUT I assume it's not terribly different. For my truck, it's 3 quarts for the transmission and another 1.6 quarts for the transfer case.
Rear diff is 2.2 quarts, front is 1.7 quarts. But you'll want straight GL5 for this. You can use anything that says good for differentials including anything with limited slip differential (LSD) additives.
Dec 7, 2012 | 06:54 PM
#70
Well...well...well...it's good to see this thread still moving.
Rusto, I think that tranny tech must have some personal experience with using a 10w40 motor oil in a tranny to even recommend using it because a 10w40 motor oil is roughly equivalent to a 75w90 gear oil. But the main point here is that the additive package of the motor oil would not even come close to that of the gear oil. Ok, maybe some what similar, but different because of how different an engine is from a manual transmission. I found this:
"The SAE has a separate viscosity rating system for gear, axle, and manual transmission oils, SAE J306, which should not be confused with engine oil viscosity. The higher numbers of a gear oil (e.g., 75W-140) do not mean that it has higher viscosity than an engine oil. " here.
If you go here, you can see how the gear oil grades and motor oil grades compare.
I also found this:
"As a "gearhead" (registered P.E. in Mechanical Engineering) oils have been an interest of mine for 20+ years. I have have been certified with the Society of Tribologists and Lubricating Engineers. However, I still learn every day.
For lubrication the number one factor is viscosity. My most vivid experience is with the 5 speed transmission in my Nissan truck. Nissan specs 75W-90 GL-4 gear oil. One time I used 80W-90. The transmission felt like the synchros were going bad. I had to double clutch to downshift. I put 75W-90 back in and the transmission shifts like new again.
There are tolerance ranges on viscosity specs. Comparing gear oil viscosity to engine oil viscosity is roughly:
75W-90 gear oil would be roughly equivalent to a 10W-40 engine oil
80W-90 gear oil would be roughly equivalent to a 20W-40 engine oil
80W gear oil would be roughly equivalent to a straight 20 engine oil
The first number with the W designates viscosity at low temp, the second number designates viscosity at high temp. Oil viscosity decreases (thins) significantly at high temperatures. As such viscosity modifiers are added to increase viscosity at high temps. It is a balance of an oil that will flow at low temp (when highly viscous) to provide adequate lubrication and an oil that will provide enough viscosity for effective lubrication at high temp (when the oil thins or loses viscosity).
To give you a rough idea, a 10W-30 oil is about 2.5 times as viscous at 100F as it is a 212F. " here.
Let us know how the Royal Purple dual rated GL4/5 oil works for you.
Hey Jerry, the reason I went with the GL4 rated MT90 in my transfer case is that's what the tech at Red Line told me over the phone when I bought my first 4Runner in 2006. And I have used it ever since. I'll have to call and see what's up w that. I found this on their website:
D4 ATF
This product also used as Power Steering Fluid in this vehicle
For use in all automatic transmissions
For use in transfer case with V-6 and automatic transmission
Drive Type: 4WD
MT-90 75W90 GL-4 Gear Oil
For use in manual transmission
Drive Type: 4WD
75W90 GL-5 Gear Oil
For use in front and rear differentials where applicable
For use in transfer case with 4 cyl engine and automatic transmission
For use in transfer case of 4x4 models except with V-6 which use D4ATF
I am still using the Castrol Synchromesh in my tranny w great results. Only about 2500 miles or so on it as the 94 was in the garage getting some bodywork done before paint. I will keep you guys updated on this.
Anyone that's looking for the FSM's, do a search and you will find links to them.
Rusto, I think that tranny tech must have some personal experience with using a 10w40 motor oil in a tranny to even recommend using it because a 10w40 motor oil is roughly equivalent to a 75w90 gear oil. But the main point here is that the additive package of the motor oil would not even come close to that of the gear oil. Ok, maybe some what similar, but different because of how different an engine is from a manual transmission. I found this:
"The SAE has a separate viscosity rating system for gear, axle, and manual transmission oils, SAE J306, which should not be confused with engine oil viscosity. The higher numbers of a gear oil (e.g., 75W-140) do not mean that it has higher viscosity than an engine oil. " here.
If you go here, you can see how the gear oil grades and motor oil grades compare.
I also found this:
"As a "gearhead" (registered P.E. in Mechanical Engineering) oils have been an interest of mine for 20+ years. I have have been certified with the Society of Tribologists and Lubricating Engineers. However, I still learn every day.
For lubrication the number one factor is viscosity. My most vivid experience is with the 5 speed transmission in my Nissan truck. Nissan specs 75W-90 GL-4 gear oil. One time I used 80W-90. The transmission felt like the synchros were going bad. I had to double clutch to downshift. I put 75W-90 back in and the transmission shifts like new again.
There are tolerance ranges on viscosity specs. Comparing gear oil viscosity to engine oil viscosity is roughly:
75W-90 gear oil would be roughly equivalent to a 10W-40 engine oil
80W-90 gear oil would be roughly equivalent to a 20W-40 engine oil
80W gear oil would be roughly equivalent to a straight 20 engine oil
The first number with the W designates viscosity at low temp, the second number designates viscosity at high temp. Oil viscosity decreases (thins) significantly at high temperatures. As such viscosity modifiers are added to increase viscosity at high temps. It is a balance of an oil that will flow at low temp (when highly viscous) to provide adequate lubrication and an oil that will provide enough viscosity for effective lubrication at high temp (when the oil thins or loses viscosity).
To give you a rough idea, a 10W-30 oil is about 2.5 times as viscous at 100F as it is a 212F. " here.
Let us know how the Royal Purple dual rated GL4/5 oil works for you.
Hey Jerry, the reason I went with the GL4 rated MT90 in my transfer case is that's what the tech at Red Line told me over the phone when I bought my first 4Runner in 2006. And I have used it ever since. I'll have to call and see what's up w that. I found this on their website:
D4 ATF
This product also used as Power Steering Fluid in this vehicle
For use in all automatic transmissions
For use in transfer case with V-6 and automatic transmission
Drive Type: 4WD
MT-90 75W90 GL-4 Gear Oil
For use in manual transmission
Drive Type: 4WD
75W90 GL-5 Gear Oil
For use in front and rear differentials where applicable
For use in transfer case with 4 cyl engine and automatic transmission
For use in transfer case of 4x4 models except with V-6 which use D4ATF
I am still using the Castrol Synchromesh in my tranny w great results. Only about 2500 miles or so on it as the 94 was in the garage getting some bodywork done before paint. I will keep you guys updated on this.
Anyone that's looking for the FSM's, do a search and you will find links to them.
Dec 7, 2012 | 08:36 PM
#71
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
From: Twin Cities, MN
All good info. I keep forgetting that motor oil is just specced differently.
The actual transmission is different than the transfer case IMO. The transfer case rarely gets shifted and contains no yellow metals. My recommendation comes purely from cost. I'm sure gl4 does just fine in every respect in the transfer case, but since this guy is having a tough time finding GL4 and it's waaaaaaaaay more expensive than GL4/5, AND the FSM says you can use either, well I'll go with the GL5 just to save a few bucks.
The actual transmission is different than the transfer case IMO. The transfer case rarely gets shifted and contains no yellow metals. My recommendation comes purely from cost. I'm sure gl4 does just fine in every respect in the transfer case, but since this guy is having a tough time finding GL4 and it's waaaaaaaaay more expensive than GL4/5, AND the FSM says you can use either, well I'll go with the GL5 just to save a few bucks.
Dec 10, 2012 | 08:07 AM
#72
Registered User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
From: Durango, Colorado
Mission Accomplished over the weekend! I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that I didn't end up going with Royal Purple, so I won't be your guinea pig with RP.
The good news is that instead of relying on phone conversations with auto parts employees, I actually went to the stores to look for myself. Lo and behold, the A&A Auto parts store about 5 minutes from my house had just enough Redline MT90 GL4 gear oil for my transmission! I did use a generic gear oil for my transfer case to save money and because the store was out of MT90 after I got through with them, but the tranny is in and it shifts smoothly, strongly and quietly.
A transmission jack is a wonderful piece of machinery, by the way. I highly recommend renting one if anybody is dropping and re-installing a tranny.
With the new clutch, new fluids all around, new seals where I needed them, and greased drive shafts and ujoints, ol' Blue is running stronger than ever.
Thanks for all the input. My father-in-law was very impressed with all of my gear oil knowledge to say the least.
Next stop, front main seal.
The good news is that instead of relying on phone conversations with auto parts employees, I actually went to the stores to look for myself. Lo and behold, the A&A Auto parts store about 5 minutes from my house had just enough Redline MT90 GL4 gear oil for my transmission! I did use a generic gear oil for my transfer case to save money and because the store was out of MT90 after I got through with them, but the tranny is in and it shifts smoothly, strongly and quietly.
A transmission jack is a wonderful piece of machinery, by the way. I highly recommend renting one if anybody is dropping and re-installing a tranny.
With the new clutch, new fluids all around, new seals where I needed them, and greased drive shafts and ujoints, ol' Blue is running stronger than ever.
Thanks for all the input. My father-in-law was very impressed with all of my gear oil knowledge to say the least.
Next stop, front main seal.
Jan 1, 2013 | 08:00 PM
#74
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,027
Likes: 1
From: Oregon, USA
Jan 2, 2013 | 07:19 AM
#76
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Can u help identify? I don't know I'm pretty into Toyotas but have no clue on the 4x4 I only have had 2wd until my 80 & wife's 87 4Ruuner. It has 22re/5speed auto hubs. I think I read all after 83 were chain to reduce noise on hwy. I put about 8oz of gear oil in it but think it had transmission fluid ..... is it possible 4 some synthetic blen is red I didn't really sell it jus saw red on my finger ... and drove on it 4 about 400 miles? Any damage? Any suggestion?
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