I begrudgingly ask for help, as I have absolutely busted through my wall of patience and I'm ready to set fire to my truck and roll it off a cliff. Before I describe my issue(s) and ask for your help, let me begin by saying this:
I have resisted reaching out, because:
1. I love the satisfaction of figuring things out for myself.
2. I am overwhelmed with a million things happening in my life, all at once, and barely have enough free time to catch my breath.
3. I live a miserable life that is plagued with "DAILY" chronic migraines and severely limits the amount of time I can spend in front of a computer, asking for help/guidance or just simply researching solutions. Which I have spent more hours than I'd like to admit.
Stress is one of my biggest triggers for migraines and I have been under an enormous amount of stress while trying to troubleshoot this issue and my head has been feeling like a grape being squeezed in a bench vise. Makes it kinda difficult to think clearly.

So here it is.....
I have a 91 pickup, extended cab, 3.0, V6, 4WD with a 3VZE.
Currently, it still will not start/crank.
About 6 months ago I began having starting issues. Turn the key and all I'd get was a click. It's happened a few times before, off/on, and I always thought it was just a loose starter cable and I'd crawl under there and fix it when I had a moment. Apparently it's more than that.
I had a list of repairs I needed to do, so I figured this would be a good time to knock them all out. I drove it into the garage and it hasn't left since December. I have gone down rabbit hole after another and can barely keep track of what I have done and what I haven't. All I've had to work off of is a Chilton's and what information I can find online. I finally broke down the other day and found a FSM on ebay ($175). I had also signed up with ALLDATAdiy.com and to be honest, I've been very unhappy with the information I'm finding.
I just really, really, REALLY would like to drastically cut down the amount of online research and forum reading, while sifting through information that mostly doesn't even pertain to my particular engine/year. It just feeds into my many rabbit holes. The FSM doesn't arrive until next week...

I can't even recall everything I've tried, but from what I can remember, this is it:
Replaced: Starter, Starter relay, Battery, EFI relay, COR relay
Fixed/repaired: Battery negative cable, multiple wires from fuse junction block 1 and ignition wire harness (thanks to the ˟˟˟˟ty wiring job that Cartoys did many years ago), clutch pedal safety switch
Troubleshot (this is where it gets foggy): New starter (mounted and bench-top), VAFM, Igniter, Pickup coils. I don't even wanna mention all the rabbit holes I've gone down trying to troubleshoot. It's been pretty difficult to stay on track/focused for many reasons.

I want to look more into the write-up from Rad4Runner about the starter relay wiring issue, but to be honest, I can't come to a conclusion cause I'm not certain if it pertains to "my" particular year/make/model or just 22RE's. I've had my truck for 19 years and this is the first time I've ever had issues like this. I want to pull my ignition switch and open it and clean/inspect it for all the years of fine brass shavings that have worn down from my keys, but that's another rabbit hole....

Last night, I retested my starter after re-installing it, again. I started with testing the start signal from the Ignition switch. The test I found said that I should be getting 10-12V; I received 8.4V. From this write-up, it says my two suspects are bad ignition switch or bad neutral safety switch. Well, from what I know, my particular year/make/model does not have a neutral safety switch, so I guess that would leave the ignition??
I'm sure I have some (more) bad wiring somewhere, but I haven't found it yet. I'm trying to stay focused on one area at a time, but it's not easy when I'm stressed, angry as hell, impatient, in pain, and lost as hell.
I used to love working on my truck, but now I despise how much of my time and energy it's taking from me. I need help, please. Until my FSM gets here, I feel as though I'm flying blind and that's contributing to the lost feeling. There is so much information I have read that has nothing to do with "my" particular year/make/model and most of the time, I don't even realize that until someone finally mentions ALL of their vehicles information. And my pos Chilton's and even the alldata website seem to have conflicting information and makes me question EVERYTHING!

Can anyone help me out? If you can provide me with straight, to the point, guidance for what to check, how to check it, that is for a 91 3VZE, I would absolutely appreciate it.

 

a good summary of what you’ve been through, and of the no-start condition.

you should ping RAD4R, as he will very likely be able to help you determine how to solve the no-start, with you providing voltage and resistance measurements using your multimeter.

 

I agree. I guess I was just hoping that he would see this post and chime in, rather than me calling him out for help.

 

he’ll see the thread. just give it a few days, after all, your truck has been sitting for a few months.

 

The PNP (Park-Neutral-Position) switch is for Automatics. Manuals have a Clutch Start Switch (They have the same function but they aren't equivalent. The Clutch Start switch interrupts the coil of the starter relay, the PNP the load side.) If your problem is no-crank, you need to start by directly switching the solenoid connection on the starter to 12v. That's what a "Remote Starter Switch" does, but they're hard to use on a 3VZE because the starter is, well, I'm not sure where it is. It's hard to get to. But it sounds like you've already accessed the solenoid wire, so a Remote Starter Switch may be all you need.

For me, I've found a much easier way, by using my Truck's existing wiring: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...switch-287859/

Reading your post, though, makes me think you are no longer having fun. You've replaced a lot of expensive parts that have nothing to do with no-crank. You're having trouble keeping track of the steps you have already taken, which makes any diagnosis difficult (and even less fun). There is no shame in taking your vehicle to someone who does this for a living. Once they get it "reset" and running again, you won't have so much to bite off, and working on your truck will be fun again. Think about it.

 

So we just tested the solenoid straight to 12V and we finally got a crank!
Is this leading us to the wiring to the starter relay?

 

Well, I like to figure out the chain necessary, then test items in the sequence of "what's easiest first." To crank, you need to turn the key, the key has to apply battery to the starter relay, the relay has to close, the relay contacts have to conduct current to the solenoid, .... What's easiest? Is the relay closing? With the solenoid wire disconnected, turn the key with your finger on the relay. If you don't feel anything, could be a bad relay coil, so pull it and check for voltage on the correct socket pin with key to STArt. If you get voltage, then check the relay with jumpers to 12v. You get the idea; test the components in the middle and work in the direction indicated.

Wiring to the starter relay from the ignition switch is in the list, but directly testing wire isn't that easy. (If you have the slightest strand of wire left, your high-impedance voltmeter will detect battery voltage, but even the 25ma the relay coil takes is too much for that strand of wire.) Try to "bracket" the wire by testing what's on either side, then work in on it.

 

We performed the initial test and we did feel the switch close. Could you please clarify what you mean when you say, " If you get voltage, then check the relay with jumpers to 12v." I guess I don't understand exactly what I should be jumpering to what? Should I also leave the solenoid cable disconnected for this?

 

If you feel the relay close, then the coil of the relay is probably good, and it is probably getting sufficient current from the ignition switch to close. Terrific!! You don't need to test the coil-side of the relay.

But if the relay is closing, why doesn't the solenoid pull in? Perhaps the contacts (load-side) of the relay are bad. Testing the relay isn't too hard; once the relay is removed you need to apply 12v to the coil terminals and check for continuity between the load terminals (There is usually a drawing on the top of the relay. If not, google!) But the relay could be good, and the wire from the relay to the solenoid is bad. It turns out that is easier to check than the relay (requires fewer jumper wires). See the page I cited for connecting battery to the relay socket where it goes to the solenoid (you have to figure out the right socket pin).

Divide and conquer.

 

Starter relay is good! Checked it using my car battery. 1 & 3 are my coils, 2 & 4 are the switch. I'm certain the issue is in the wiring; just not certain how to (confidently) trace that down when all I have at-hand is this Chilton's. It seems the more I use it, the less faith I have in it.

Which side of the relay do you suggest I zero in on; 1 & 3?
And how do think I should test this against my ignition switch?

 

If the relay closes (pretty much if you hear it click, that counts) when you turn the key, then your ignition switch is not the issue.

On the load side, one socket pin goes to the battery (though a 40amp or so fuse), so it's constant power. The other pin goes to the solenoid. Use your multimeter to measure voltage to ground to find the one with battery voltage, the other one goes to the solenoid. Use an appropriate jumper wire (see the posting linked above) to connect battery to the solenoid wire. If nothing happens, you've got an open in that wire. It may be B-W, but you don't really care. It goes straight from the solenoid to the relay socket, so it can't be hard to find.

What if putting battery to the solenoid wire causes it to crank? Then your wire is good, so why didn't it work with the relay? Your relay might show continuity with your bench test, but it's possible the contacts are so mucked up so that it has, oh, 1 ohm. Which certainly looks like continuity. If it takes, oh, 5amps to close the solenoid, that 1 ohm relay contact drops 5 volts, and the remaining 7 volts won't be enough. (When you hear people talking about "voltage drop" tests, they're looking for very low resistances in circuits that carry high current. Like the charging circuits.) Or, you could have a bad relay socket.

 

Good start troubleshooting ^^^. and telling us what truck you have. EVERYBODY should indicate same details on truck as you have to save everybody time.
Oftentimes WIRING, not those bulletproof Toyota components, are to blame.

Toyota electrical in those days are like Frankenstein's work - LOL!
You can help us by showing us what your starter relay looks like and where they are.
What wire colors go to the relay socket, and to which pins.
Then we can figure out which scenario applies to yours.
My bet is incorrect or excessively long wire path from battery to starter solenoid control coil wire.

 

The starter solenoid wire is black/white and has continuity with pin 2 of the starter relay.

 

So you ran 12 volts directly to the starter relay? Or the solenoid on the starter? The easiest way to check the load side wiring all at once would be to remove the starter relay and stick a jumper wire from pins 1 to 2 (I think you said they were the contacts) of the harness. This should engage the starter. (Be sure trans is not in gear before doing this.) Not sure how much electrical knowledge you have but I'm going to try to explain how a relay works. (Just dealt with a licensed electrician that didn't know.) A relay is basically 2 different circuits; A control side and a load side. They are used to use a low amp signal to control a high amp signal. All electrical circuits need a power source, (Battery positive) a load, (the coil on your relay) and a ground. (The negative on your battery). There can be switches to turn on and off the battery voltage. (Ignition switch) The voltage basically goes in a circle.

So your control side circuit goes like this.

Battery positive==>Ignition switch==>Clutch switch (or NSS if an auto)==>coil side of your starter relay==> ground.

Then you have another circuit (load side) that goes like this.

Battery positive==>starter relay contact (switch)==>Coil side of starter solenoid (on the starter itself)==>ground (This is through the body of the starter to the trans bell housing and is why you need a good engine to body ground.)

Then there's a third circuit that goes like this. (This is the load side of the starter solenoid. The control side of the starter RELAY is the load side of the starter SOLENOID) You basically have a small relay controlling a big relay here.

Battery positive===(this is the big wire)==> contact (Switch) on starter solenoid==this is inside the starter (unless it's an old FORD) and not visible==>starter motor==>ground.

You can use a jumper wire in place of any (Switch) to see if it is faulty. Just because the relay clicks doesn't mean the contacts aren't burnt or destroyed. (I've seen the contacts weld together and come off the arm that moves inside the relay)

I hope this helps and if it just confuses you please disregard.

Also watch what you eat for those migraines. My girlfriend used to get them so bad it looked like a stroke. After years she finally found a doctor that helped figure it out. She's basically allergic to preservatives. TBHQ, MSG etc. Most any fried fast food will set one off but so will boxed cereal like Froot Loops or Cocoa Krispies. She's cut most of that out of her diet and has very very few migraines now. Hope it helps!

 

Hey, thanks a lot rattlecanpaint. I really appreciate the solid breakdown and seeing it written out like that helps. I kinda don't even want to admit this, but I do have some electrical background, but I don't always have to use electrical thoery on an everyday basis. And you know what they say.. "if you don't use it, you lose it." Plus, the whole damn migraine situation and frustration certainly doesn't help matters. And when it comes to automotive electrical, this is new territory.
And thanks for the migraine tips!

So, to answer your first question, I applied 12V straight to the solenoid terminal and was able to get it to crank. Not long afterwards, I tried jumping the relay, but I think at that point, I had my contacts mixed up and my results weren't "pleasant." I burnt a circuit board trace inside the ClutchStartCancel switch. oops! Luckily, I was able to open it up and repair it with my soldering iron.
I haven't had a chance to do anything for the past two days, but take those last pics that Rad requested and upload them. I'm just getting home from work and as soon as I throw the ball for my dog a few times, I'll be ready to dive back in.

 

Re Migraine: I think all those chemicals in processed food that our body was not programmed to receive could cause it. I do not have migraine but I reserve processed food for rare occasions; That way those Spam, bacon, hotdog, vienna sausage and instant ramen would taste like heaven on our adventures - LOL!
Many members here are 50-somethings. Pls post higher resolution pics like I do.
Your circuit is probably like JPL's. Starter relay is wired correctly, but you're losing too much power on wiring because starter relay is in a bad location. Ideally,a relay should be physically between power source and load .
Please check schematic below if it matches, including wire colors to individual pins and share with us for future reference. Engineer/draftsman may have had too much sake at work - LOL! Relay has only PIns 1 thru 4 but schematic shows pin5 instead of pin4.
According to your relay pin-out pin 4 should be load supply. Please verify that YOUR Pin 4 always has 12V even if IGN is off.

 

I'm really trying to remain positive and see this through to the end, but.....
I'm officially willing to give up. Or at least I keep telling myself that. Troubleshooting this electrical problem has been consuming my life and making me miserable in doing so. It's also made me despise this truck and wish I could roll it out of my garage and never see it again. I would gladly sell it "right now" if I could, but....it's not starting and I have the interior almost completely gutted. I'm lucky if I can find one hour to step into the garage to do anything; and that hour is usually spent trying to remember where I left off from before. Life has been throwing me one curve ball after another and every day I am on a time limit with everything I'm doing. I'm mentally exhausted and overwhelmed with more than I can handle in a reasonable amount of time and troubleshooting this truck with limited information and time available to me, it's just sucking the life out of me when there is something about to happen to me in 5 days that I should be ecstatic and on cloud-9, but this damn truck....

So, I got tired and fed up with the Chilton so I searched and searched.....and searched for a FSM and could only find one. $175 later, it finally showed up and I went all through both volumes and taking notes. But I still felt "incomplete" with the full information I am needing. Apparently, there is ANOTHER volume that I need; the Electrical Wiring Diagram (EWD096U). I didn't know this until after I received these two books and then noticed that the electrical portions of it were still a little "vague." And now, I can't find this other volume anywhere. It sure as hell seems to me that fate has been trying to tell me something.....
And I just thought I had ran into "THE area" to concentrate on; the drivers side junction relay box. More specifically, the Integration Relay. I was ringing out fuses and wires and tracing this and that, while inspecting my ingition and starter relay, then noticed that a TON of stuff within the integration relay seemed to ring out against one another.
Now, I'm definitely a visual and hands-on learner, so I have to do things the hard way and soemtimes "draw myself a map" to understand it and know where to go with it. This is why having the correct material on-hand is so crucial to me. I was excited to finally receive these two manuals, only to end up let down...and feeling defeated. This evening was my only opportunity to dive back into it until I return from a week-long trip to Wichita, Kansas where I'll be getting to see my only daughter for the VERY FIRST TIME! And she's 25 years old. I'm excited and happier than I've ever been, but this truck and all it's problems combined with all the overwhelming "happenings" are truly stealing my thunder. I refuse to work on the other issues on my truck until I fix this starting issue. But I can't seem to make good head-way until I am clear where I'm going, and for that to happen, I need this damn wiring diagram volume.
So....does anyone happen to have one or know where I can find one for my vehicle? 1991 pickup V6 3VZE 4WD
And if I can't find one, then I might as well throw in the towel and stop wasting my time and effort when I have other important items to tend to...so that I can prepare to leave Washington state after 23 years and spend the rest of my life living next to my daughter. She's the only thing that matters to me now. I had 19 fun years with this pickup, but maybe it's time someone else takes it over.....

And RAD....I'm sorry I didn't get around to replying with the info you requested. I've been trying, but my life really has been a rollercoastrer ride lately and everytime I make plans to do something, I get knocked off my tracks. Plus, when it comes to uploading pics and editing them and detailing certian test results, it becomes a very time-consuming process for me and time is somehting I've been lacking. That, and computers and I do not cooperate very well.

 

Don't give up yet.
Borrow my starting and control pages from my 94 wire diagram book. EWD621 or something.

Was going to post in pdf, but thought if you're using a mobile, you may not be able to read.
Keep in mind, a 91 might (probably is) different than a 94. But should be quite siimilar for these circuits.

 

Ahh! I appreciate that very much. But I just located the wiring manual for my 91 and went ahead and ordered it. Between that and my post earlier, I'm officially out of time for the evening and the rest of my week will be spent preparing for my trip. The truck will have to wait until I return. It's not going anywhere! lol