mac9968

Well I got an igniter off Ebay, yep, wrong one. Said is was for a 95 and the one I got is not the same at all. I have since located another one at a salvage yard a few miles away. I will post my progress if this is the culprut, thanks team for all the dialog,
MAC

abecedarian

Can't just go by the year. The best thing is going by the part number on the igniter.

buckz6319

COOL!!!!!!! Avatar Abe!!!!!!!! ....I want one to use as a tail pipe damper on my 4runner clunker, the picture would have to be painted on the damper with High Heat resistant paint, where all my hot exhaust air comes out of

Thanks again for the info and I will check out the following described procedure again and also I'm going to take it to be put on a diagnostic machine soon and maybe it will show where my misfiring is coming from before I buy any more parts to throw at the 4tunner
I'll update with my results
Dwayne

buckz6319

Mac...good luck

Aubs

Nope, not the button....lame.

Let me get this right.? The ingitor or coil can be sending "spark", but still not be working correcly. This would explain alot.

Please. If im totaly misunderstanding, let me know.

Buck, Abe. thanks a ton already. but thanks again anyway.
Good luck Mac

abecedarian

Well, the igniter gets a signal from the distributor (NE, and maybe other signals for the V6- G1, G2). The NE signal tells the igniter when a plug should fire, or at the latest time it should fire, which would be the base timing.
The igniter can use the NE signal to start the engine, but also passes the NE signal to the ECU so the ECU knows when a plug should fire. The ECU also uses the NE signal to calculate RPM's then uses RPM's to calculate what the crankshaft position is and then adjust ignition advance / retard as necessary. That is a separate signal to the igniter that overrides the NE signal's trigger, but it requires the engine to reach a 'normal' condition before it can be used. On some engines, the G1 and G2 signals are used to fine tune the crankshaft position in order to give even more accurate timing advance based on real positions instead of just calculating RPMs over time to arrive at a crank position. If that condition is never met, the igniter can run the engine at the base timing from idle to whatever RPM, but the ECU will throw codes about not getting the NE, G1 or G2 signals (again, depending on the engine).

The igniter is also capable of detecting if a spark plug fires properly. It's hard to explain but when a plug fires, the gasses in the cylinder turn to plasma (in a sense) and affect the resistance in the coil as the fields collapse and rebound, and the igniter can detect this. There's the IGF signal.

No IGF and the ECU stops advancing timing and may cut the injectors if the loss of IGF is accompanied with a loss of NE signal.

Or at least that's how I understand it to work.

sb5walker

On the 3vze, unlike the 22re, the distributor's signals connect directly to the ecu. The only spark trigger the igniter receives is IGT from the ecu. That's different from the 22re setup, where the igniter does receive NE which it uses for the initial spark timing (when cranking, and right after engine start). As Abe said, the 22re igniter passes NE on to the ECU and it will switch over to use the IGT signal to time spark once the ecu starts sending it (which happens after the engine reaches a "certain rpm" - whatever that is). And if for some reason the igniter never receives IGT, it will continue to fire the spark based on NE, which means that there's no advance.

But on the 3vze, it's just IGT from the ecu that triggers the igniter to ground the primary coil winding to generate a spark pulse. Abe suggests that the igniter is sensitive enough to detect whether there was a good spark, and if there was, the igniter sends a pulse on IGF back to the ecu. IDK if that's true, or if IGF is sent any time the igniter successfully triggers a spark (grounds the primary winding of the coil, which receives power from the ignition switch), regardless of whether the secondary (high voltage) coil winding gets grounded out (hopefully at a spark plug).

In addition to sending spark pulses to the igniter, the ecu also starts out firing the injectors by pulsing ground on terminals #10 & #20. But it looks for confirmation of spark on IGF. If it doesn't receive IGF from the igniter, the ecu will stop firing the injectors after a few seconds.

As far as I know, the possible reasons for no IGF/code 14 include a bad IGF connection between igniter and ecu, a bad igniter, a bad ecu (unlikely), a bad ground, or possibly a bad spark (although I can't confirm that as a possibility). Over on toyota nation someone who had a code 14 tracked it down to a cut in a brown ground wire (apparently E2) in the engine compartment somewhere. E2 is called an engine ground, but it has no direct connection to the engine - it grounds through the ecu, probably to E01/E02 (which ground to the motor). E2 is used to ground many of the key engine control sensors, and apparently IGF as well.

Here's a simplified 93 3vze ignition circuit diagram:
http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b.../9systemci.pdf

Here's a 95 4Runner ignition circuit (3vze is right side of the diagram):
http://www.the-roo.com/4runner/Wiring_Diags/ign.pdf

buckz6319

thanks for the........Great posting..................

Aubs

Wow! Thats the best expaination yet.

Why can't Toyotas be like Stephen Kings "Christine", they could all just fix themselves?.

Aubs

Well, I ran through everything one more time today. From pullin the plugs to testting every peice of the wiring. Tested dizzy/coil and igniter, just to be sure. Nothing obvious jumped out.
I'm gonna start replacing parts now starting with the igniter, Found one for $125.

thanks to everybody on this kick a$$ forum (agian).

I'll let ou know how it turns out.

buckz6319

Aubs...thanks for the update....I'm looking forward find out what is causing all the problems....

I went out today and purchased a vacuum tester and started a test with it, suppose to tell you what is going own with your engine.I'm not really sure on how to read it yet but I did start a new thread with video of my test here have a look...any advice will be appreciated on what this test is showing me
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...-video-189173/

mac9968

Hello all, sorry for the late post, had to take care of a family member over the weekend so couldnt work on my runner(my sons runner). I did get the replacement Igniter, guess what, code 14 cleared. I am now normal with regaurd to no codes, however the trunk still will not run.
I have began to take the air chamber and throdel off the engine. When putting everything back together I remember a ground wire that was on the passenger side bundled with the 3 injectors connections, a water bypass ckt, this ground, or I assume a ground. I remember looking a that, and seeing a ground from the firewall, I placed them both together and terminated them both to the block. Does this ring a bell with anyone.

You all rock, and this is truely a great thread. THanks everyone.

mac9968

I just confirmed that I did tie a ground off the firewall, to the engine with the ground from the wireing harness from the passenger side. I am wondering if this didnt ultimately wreck my first ingniter? As I said I now have no code 14, but will not run. If someone has a 95 4 runner v6 broken down, can I get an eye on the passenger side injectors, water bypass, and ground, does it connect with frame ground(firewall.)

sb5walker

It is always safest, of course, to keep the grounds where they were originally connected, but I don't see a problem with tying a chassis ground to an engine ground. The main point is to make sure both chassis and engine have good grounds to the neg batt post, and that the E1 terminal on the ecu has a good ground to the chassis and E01/E02 have a good ground to the motor.

Igniters are most often killed by either low resistance in the primary coil winding or by hooking up battery or jumper cable backwards. And sometimes they just die of old age.

If it's not running, check fuel pressure, spark and injector firing. Easiest way to check fuel is to jump B+ & FP in the check connector and listen at the fuel tank while a helper turns ignition on (but doesn't start the motor). Or you can crack the line to the cold start injector but surround with a rag.

Easiest way to check injector firing is to place the metal rod of a mechanics stethoscope (they're cheap) against the side of an injector while someone cranks the motor. If they're firing the clicks will be loud and clear.

Checking spark - lots of fun ways to electrocute yourself!

mac9968

sb5 you rock, thanks, I honestly cant remember thier original position. So you think the cold start injector would cause the engine to fire, run a bit then die, as the other 6 injectors fail to fire? As code 14 is gone the engine does now act like it is lacking fuel.

mac9968

Update, (and yes today I called in sick, I got to get this thing running). Looking at fuel presure, the cold start injector appeared to be working, I dont have a good idea about how much fuel I should see, but there was fuel. I took apart the fuel rails, as I didnt like the way the injectors set in the manifold. On the drivers side they appeared to be tight, and not easly turned. I lifted off the driverside fuel rail, and found on Cylinder 6 the injector cracked, or at the bare minimum the green plastic over the brass at the the cylinder side of the injector broken.

If this injector is back(I am sure that it is) would it stop/prohibit the presure in the rails from getting to the appro. level? Can these injectors be tested? If needed, I can post a new thread to keep this one on topic.

Thanks everyone
MAC

mac9968

BTW, how would I go about posting pictures with my replys, looks like the image just come from a url, can I upload pictures?

Sorry, (new guy to this type of forum, but really, really like it.)
mac

sb5walker

If an injector was bad, it wouldn't bother any of the other injectors - you'd just have a dead cyl. Unless it were leaking enough to reduce fuel pressure, but that would be creating some rather obvious problems aside from the motor not running.

Did you check whether the injectors were firing? At least, check for power at an injector connector with ignition on. Should have power on both sides of all injectors.

For posting pics check the first sticky at the top of the forum.

mac9968

trying to add an image

mac9968