junk4u

iTrader: (1)

Cooling is a big issue when driving around in the City and one of the factors we all face is that most of the 86-88 4Runners and pickup owners are always looking to fix up there A/C. The hard part is what do we fill it up with. With the big thing in the coming years 2017, the refrigerant R134a will be so expensive people will walk away from buying it. My understanding is that the cost will increase mainly do to taxes and R134a will not be banned. These taxes will be implemented to stop frivolous usage which constitutes small leak re-filling ever 3 or 4 months. EPA is looking to substitute R134 with another refrigerant like R744 or R152a, but so far their charts only list these 2 product for New and not retrofitted systems. I've seen and read so many people have charged there system with R152a which is available today in any office supply store, Walmart and online as your ordinary dust blower. We use it everyday to clean items of our computers and desks.


What is everyone’s take on using R152A as a substitute?


The are a few choices:
1) R12/CFC-12 (expensive $25-$40 a 12oz can requires license)
2) R134a (getting expensive $12-$20 a 12oz can)
3) R22/CFC-22 (expensive $300 to $400 30lb requires license)
4) R744 Not an easy item to find.
5) R152a easy to find at any office supply, Walmart, target and kmart

Since I am leaning to R152a as my refrigerant I have been reviewing videos and forums of usage and a majority of them state that using it seems to be cooler than R134a. Vent temps reach in the range of 40 degrees. Sounds like a plus to me. I will post more when I actually do finish the install of the refrigerant R152a which would be in the next week or so as I am waiting on parts and trying to locate a can tap to do the job.

Like I said earlier, i would like to know from people that have or are interested in doing the same using R152a as the refrigerant substitute.

brianh699

Never heard of using R152A. Have you heard of ES12A? That's what I'm going to try on my 89 runner http://autorefrigerants.com/co00033.htm

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

Be nice to know how the pressures compare

junk4u

iTrader: (1)

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianh699

Never heard of using R152A. Have you heard of ES12A? That's what I'm going to try on my 89 runner http://autorefrigerants.com/co00033.htm

Yup sure have, that was the first refrigerant I looked at. The US EPA prohibits the use of Propane and Butane which basically a Hydrocarbon Blend B. http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html

I do understand it works very good and has very little problems. Best of all if I remember correctly you really don't have to vacuum the line. They already use these types of refrigerant in commercial unit.

I opted for R152A which is easier to obtain just buy the can of duster which shows that it contains R152a. Ultra Duster is available at WallyWorld and is being used by many whom have converted over already some say its temp at the vent are around 40 degrees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyoming9

Be nice to know how the pressures compare

I'm not hundred percent sure, but I think i read somewhere that it should be about 30 on the low side and much easier on the compressor. Plus its quieter when the clutch engages, do know how that could make a difference as the clutch is a totally different mechanical part.

junk4u

iTrader: (1)

Just so you all know, adding R152a is not done through the conventional way, but through a can tap.

Here's what they look like.



You can sometimes find it at the local auto parts stores.

aztoyman

I still have one of those old can taps. Is the R152A can the same size as the current refrigerant cans?

What about the gas properties? Is it compatible with the materials in our systems like hoses, seals, dryer and even the metal parts?

What type of oil is it compatible with? Will it work with the same expansion valve?

I'm not trying it out until somebody else does and proves it works without problems.

I am curious about it. Try it out and post up.

highonpottery

iTrader: (1)

yeah, if you guys figure it out, i'm game. my AC's been out for almost 4 summers in Sacramento heat - definitely needs a fix!

aztoyman

I'm in AZ. and converted my 88 to R134A. It works great. I would consider an alternative only if proven.

junk4u

iTrader: (1)

I am going to test R152a out. There are a lot of forums out there and videos of people using it already. I am waiting for a can tap so that I can fill it up with it. I will post my results as soon as i do. EPA has posted a list of substitute for R12 in vehicles and R152a is one of them. Cans of R152a are available almost every as you will find them online and in your office supply store. The ordinary duster typically has R152a you can find out if you red the MSDS sheet for the product. You can even search Ultra Duster which is R152a

Stetson_md

What happend to 3wd50mph (5wd50mph for 4runners)a/c?

junk4u

iTrader: (1)

To hot for that, here in south florida. It would be better with 4WD70mph much cooler

Stetson_md

Lol it ain't no cooler here in central

junk4u

iTrader: (1)

I'm still waiting on the Can Tap, but for the past 3 days the seller on epay hasn't shipped. I did get a tracking number yesterday, but it just states electronic notice has been received. That usually means after 24 hrs still the same that they haven't dropped it off at the Post Office, so I guess I'm not going to see it until next week if that.

In the meantime, I'd thought I'd list a few things that I have been learning are required to make the change over to R152a.

One of the first thing you have to do is clean out the system. If the compressor is off drain the oil from the compressor. If the system had PAG oil or mineral oil in it, pour a few oz of ester oil in it and rotate it about 15 time MOL and then drain this just to clean out the compressor. Once that is done pour 3oz of ester oil into the compressor and close it up.



Next would be to replace the drier. Take 2-3 oz of the the ester oil and pour it into the new drier (some will say otherwise). use the new o-rings that usually come with the new drier.



It may be best to purchase a o-ring seal kit for your truck I did even though I knew I wasn't going to use only but a few, it may come in handy if you do find a seal leak in the system else where.



The next thing would be to vacuum out the system for at least 1 hour with a draw on it of 30. this is to remove air from the system which is what typically damages the units because air/oxygen creates moisture and the water in the line is what cases the damages. You can probably rent a vacuum pump from autozone, i have one which is not working right now, but I ended up borrowing one from one of my neighbors.



Let's not forget that you will need gauges as well. You can probably rent it from autozone as well. So I don't know if you can rent it, but I've read stories of people that have.



You can get your R152a from most Office supply stores, Wallyworld, target pretty much any store that has office supplies or computer supplies. Here are the 2 that I have found and check the MSDS to see if it does actually have R152a.



That should be it, but once I get started actually installing the r152a I can better run through the steps of my trial and errors.

junk4u

iTrader: (1)

Sorry guys the ETA for my can tap was changed by the vendor to Tuesday after the holidays. I really wanted it up and running before the weekend which is a long weekend.

junk4u

iTrader: (1)

Okay I got my Can Tap earlier than expected on Saturday and today I was finally able to do a little with it on getting the R152a into my system. Just so you'll know I'll be posting the same information on my build thread as well which is located here:

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f199...7/index19.html

Here's the Can Tap and the bottle of Ester Oil that i will be using:




Since I used the Bottle of ester Oil I had to open up the compressor and pour it in then close up the compressor and vaucum the system.

Here's what I used to charge the AC.



These cans contain R152a, they say they are 10oz cans, but I'm not totally sold on a full 10oz is in them just yet.

I hooked one of them up to the can tap which has both fittings for R12 and R134a.



First can went in without a problem and the engine was off not running about 2/3 or so went in. Then I cranked the truck up and rev the engine up to 2000 RPM's and drew the last oz out of the can. Closed the valve on the gauge and detached the empty can and setup a new Duster Can to the the Can Tap and slowly opened the valve on the gauges. You want the liquid so you don't want to open the gauges to fast. revved up the truck again to 2000 RPM's until the pressure reached about 28-30 on the gauges. Then closed the gauges. Took the truck for a drive around the block to see how cold it would get and and it did get pretty cold, running idle it didn;t cool very well, so i have to check out a few things like the cooling fan, VSV, Booster and make sure that the unit is not under charged.

Got my neighbor to take a drive around the block to see how it cools and he said its utterly unbelievable that it cools like it does. he had handy a temperature gun so we decided to check it out.

The temperature directly at the vent read +/-35 degrees, at one point it went down to 30 degrees (makes me think that the charge is low). Running for about 10 minutes, the temperature in the back seat area read about 71 degrees. That's comfortable for me, but I have to take into consideration even though the temperature outside at 6pm in the semi cloudy afternoon read 86 degrees, the temperature inside the car will be different when the sun is out and its 90 degrees. Over all I think I'm going to like R152a as my choice of refrigerant, just have a lot of tweaking I have to the truck and the AC.

junk4u

iTrader: (1)

My neighbor just reminded me at several times the temperature reading dropped down to 28 degrees, I find that hard to believe as it dropped down to that point several times. Just for the few minutes we sat in the truck checking the temperature at the vent we decided to take the temperature in the back seating area. that reading came to 68-71 degrees. Not to shabby, but I still have some tweaking to work on it as I mentioned before at idle doesn't seem to cool very well.

Again I think this maybe a better refrigerant than R134, out trucks have a smaller condenser than the newer cars that can cool down the refrigerant better than our smaller condensers. R12 cooled about the same as this stuff does and this is way cheaper. I'm hoping to get more results as I look for the resolution to the idle issue with and without the AC

junk4u

iTrader: (1)

Been thinking that some of you all would maybe like to know more or less what the benefits are for using R152a.

R152a common duster:



1) You can get these at any office supply store or big time department stores. Read the label to make sure you are getting compressed gas and not compressed air. I looked at these 2 (MSDS) and both contain R152a.
2) EPA is considering this as I replacement for R134, still unclear to me if it would be for new cars or can be used for older cars.
3) The cooling comes close to R12 cooling.
4) Has GWP120 less than what is or going to be the limits which is GWP150
5) Cost was substantially less. I got mine for about $3.99 a 10oz can. that's $0.40 an oz.

R134



1) Available at any auto parts store or department stores.
2) EPA is not phasing it out, but increasing taxes on the product to limit the frivolous usage of it.
3) Using in older Automotive AC is sometime troublesome as it doesn't cool as good since the condensers are smaller in some cars. Sometimes just retrofitting the valve stems is not all that is required, but a larger condenser.
4) Has a GWP1300 thats way above the GWP150 this is the reason for the change.
5) I walked into a auto parts store and saw that the cheapest 12oz can was $14.99 that's $1.25 an oz.

Okay, so what I'm looking at so far if this works out over time is.

1) I can get it easily (may stock up on a few cans just in case they decide to add more taxes to it).
2) Is used almost everywhere as a duster for computers and desks, etc...
3) Pretty much cools better than R134a in my opinion.
4) destroys less of the environment (so far that they know of) because of the lower GWP120 and I read somewhere it breaks down in water quickly.
5) A substantial savings of $0.85 an oz. In other words, 12oz of R134a is $15 and 12 oz of R152a is $4.80 which is equal to a savings of $10.20 for a 12oz can or $0.85 saving per oz.

Here's a snip of a summary of R152a and R134a

At the same compressor speed, R152a system with readjustment of an expansion valve
showed better performance compared to R134a system
- 20 ~ 41% higher cooling capacity
- 27 ~ 42% higher COP
- 33 ~ 48% lower evaporator pressure drop
- 6.4 ~ 10.8 o C higher discharge temperature

scottt80

I haven't ran across this anywhere before but I'm certainly interested in it. R134 has gone up significantly in the last few years and any good alternatives are welcome.

junk4u

iTrader: (1)

This stuff is way better than R134a in my opinion and seem to cool just as good as R12 for the older AC. Seems easier on the compressor and I don't hear the loud clicking noise you hear on the older cars and trucks.

Torlog

What readjustments did you do to the expansion valve? Thanks