Axle Snap Ring Needed?
12-09-2013, 06:03 AM
#1
Axle Snap Ring Needed?
I know we've covered this question before but its always been buried within another thread.
Purely hypothetically, academically, is it OK to run an IFS truck without the snap ring that goes on the end of the outer axle shaft under the locking hub?
Please please please, do not answer "well it came that way so don't you dare change anything" or "some smart Japanese guy had a good reason." We are thinking people and can decide for ourselves.
The benefit of running without the snap ring is that you can pull the axle out by taking the hub face and the gold bolt off ONLY, no need to pull the hub body off and mess with the cone washers. This is handy for trail repairs. Also if you end up with axle seal compatibility issues it may be hard to get the snap ring to seat.
My solution is to place a large shim washer behind the gold bolt and around the axle such that tightening the gold bolt pulls the axle outward. This gives it positive sealing against the knuckle.
I guess the drawback is that if the gold bolt somehow failed or came out then the axle could pull out of the knuckle. I'm also considering upgrading the gold bolt too a higher strength class 10 bolt for this reason.
Do you see any other issues with this setup? Have you personally run your truck sans snap ring with success (or failure) before?
Purely hypothetically, academically, is it OK to run an IFS truck without the snap ring that goes on the end of the outer axle shaft under the locking hub?
Please please please, do not answer "well it came that way so don't you dare change anything" or "some smart Japanese guy had a good reason." We are thinking people and can decide for ourselves.
The benefit of running without the snap ring is that you can pull the axle out by taking the hub face and the gold bolt off ONLY, no need to pull the hub body off and mess with the cone washers. This is handy for trail repairs. Also if you end up with axle seal compatibility issues it may be hard to get the snap ring to seat.
My solution is to place a large shim washer behind the gold bolt and around the axle such that tightening the gold bolt pulls the axle outward. This gives it positive sealing against the knuckle.
I guess the drawback is that if the gold bolt somehow failed or came out then the axle could pull out of the knuckle. I'm also considering upgrading the gold bolt too a higher strength class 10 bolt for this reason.
Do you see any other issues with this setup? Have you personally run your truck sans snap ring with success (or failure) before?
12-09-2013, 06:49 AM
#2
Why not just use the snap ring like you're supposed to? They are cheap and easy to use - they also come in varying thicknesses for when you need a better fit (like if you swap out your CV axle). Why try to reinvent things? This is one of those parts everyone should have a spare of in their toolbox. Also, once you regularly maintain your axles you'll find getting cone washers off is significantly easier - especially if you use anti-seize.
Hypothetically though people have run their rigs without them. Not necessarily intentionally but they may tear it open and find no snap ring, or one that fell off because the previous repair didn't use snap ring pliers and got it all chewed up and wouldn't seat. With this also comes a slew of issues like stripped splines, chewed up seals, leaking grease, etc.
Hypothetically though people have run their rigs without them. Not necessarily intentionally but they may tear it open and find no snap ring, or one that fell off because the previous repair didn't use snap ring pliers and got it all chewed up and wouldn't seat. With this also comes a slew of issues like stripped splines, chewed up seals, leaking grease, etc.
12-09-2013, 07:18 AM
#3
hey dude, I'm the one who PM'd you about the hubs, but I'm pretty sure that mine were installed bad, without the snap ring, and this is what led to the demise of the hub/axle. And now that I'm reading that above post, i'm positive that is what happened. Use the snap ring. I'm betting that mine barely fit, and it was getting slightly more chewed up each time. It's so chewed up now that I can't even put the axle into the hub. Now I gotta figure out how to get some snap rings. I don't have this mystical golden bolt either, so I'm really not sure if the freaking crap was even put together right. What a PITA.
check this out.
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116.../#post52147375
check this out.
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116.../#post52147375
Last edited by carlspeed; 12-09-2013 at 07:20 AM.
12-09-2013, 08:39 AM
#4
Lost the snap ring needed to get to work .
10 miles round trip till I got home even though the bolt and washer were on the axle pulled out towards the differential.
enough that if I would have needed to use 4 wheel drive to get up the hill I would be walking
I now have 20 of these snap rings Stuff like this goes flying all the time only to vanish in flight never to be seen again.
It is your truck feel free to see how your idea works and please tell us
10 miles round trip till I got home even though the bolt and washer were on the axle pulled out towards the differential.
enough that if I would have needed to use 4 wheel drive to get up the hill I would be walking
I now have 20 of these snap rings Stuff like this goes flying all the time only to vanish in flight never to be seen again.
It is your truck feel free to see how your idea works and please tell us
12-09-2013, 09:01 AM
#6
Good input, guys. Carl, the post you made is really informative. I have never seen that situation before but it makes perfect sense. If the axle is able to pull out then you break the knuckle seal and also have much less spline contact area. This is why I mentioned putting a washer under the gold bolt. This pulls the axle all the way into the hub and keeps it there (as the snap ring would). On my setup I am unable to pull the axle out of the knuckle any distance when installed.
I have to reinvent stuff. I always have and will continue to.
I have to reinvent stuff. I always have and will continue to.
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12-09-2013, 09:17 AM
#9
Registered User
Well I'll chime in, cause I've had success running without the snap ring since thanksgiving now.
My story/reason:
I had planned to do an sas, so I'd already sold my good cv axles, including the snap rings and all but 1 of those gold bolts with the big washer. Had to reinstall 4wd due to weather, and so ordered one of the "spacer" OEM part number 90560-27005 which goes on the axle behind the snap ring. I was missing one, and the guy at autozone told me my cv axles would come with new snap rings. I should've known better, and then the dealership doesn't stock the snap rings, so I used the spacers and a large nylon washer on the end of the axle, against the hub body under the dial face, and a new flange bolt with a fender washer. For some reason or another one of my buddies has 2 more of those spacers which part number I mentioned, so I'm going to use them to replace the nylon washers and will get some pics of the setup to post here.
Anyway, it works. The autozone axles don't have much of a seal attached to them, either, so we'll see how well this is keeping stuff out when I take it apart today.
My story/reason:
I had planned to do an sas, so I'd already sold my good cv axles, including the snap rings and all but 1 of those gold bolts with the big washer. Had to reinstall 4wd due to weather, and so ordered one of the "spacer" OEM part number 90560-27005 which goes on the axle behind the snap ring. I was missing one, and the guy at autozone told me my cv axles would come with new snap rings. I should've known better, and then the dealership doesn't stock the snap rings, so I used the spacers and a large nylon washer on the end of the axle, against the hub body under the dial face, and a new flange bolt with a fender washer. For some reason or another one of my buddies has 2 more of those spacers which part number I mentioned, so I'm going to use them to replace the nylon washers and will get some pics of the setup to post here.
Anyway, it works. The autozone axles don't have much of a seal attached to them, either, so we'll see how well this is keeping stuff out when I take it apart today.
12-09-2013, 11:30 AM
#10
and here's the rest of the thread: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...ctures-158106/
12-09-2013, 01:12 PM
#12
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I ran without snap rings for a while at one time. The CV normally can't travel so much as to cause a problem (especially running 4wd on the road). But, if you are taking it off road, and flexing it, it might pose a problem. They are obviously there for a reason. And Carl, like I said in the other post, it really looks like a PO got the wheel bound up on something, and possibly slammed on the gas, causing the splines of the hub to tear up, instead of the axle breaking.
12-09-2013, 02:56 PM
#13
Registered User
Well here's how I got around it without having a quick source for new c clips.
First, like Rustbucket has mentioned, here's the washers, which Toyota actually calls spacers if you're talking to a parts guy there
Is was my first quick fix, a nylon washer holding the "spacer" and a larger nylon washer under it against the hub body.
That held up to this and some crawling a couple times
The nylon still looks fine, no apparent stress on it, but since I got ahold of another set of those spacers, I have them doubled up on each side instead of the spacer over the large nylon washer. I'm with Rustbucket now, it does make cv axle changes easier, so I'm leaving it like this til I sas.
First, like Rustbucket has mentioned, here's the washers, which Toyota actually calls spacers if you're talking to a parts guy there
Is was my first quick fix, a nylon washer holding the "spacer" and a larger nylon washer under it against the hub body.
That held up to this and some crawling a couple times
The nylon still looks fine, no apparent stress on it, but since I got ahold of another set of those spacers, I have them doubled up on each side instead of the spacer over the large nylon washer. I'm with Rustbucket now, it does make cv axle changes easier, so I'm leaving it like this til I sas.
12-10-2013, 04:53 AM
#14
Hey Jonny, that's great. That's pretty much how I set mine up too. Good thought to use nylon and then check it later for evidence of wear.
As I think about it more, my only concern is what component bears the axial load that wants to pull the axle out of the hub. The snap ring makes the load transfer directly into the spindle. The "washer method" makes the hub gear bear the load. I guess the question is if this load is significant or not.
As I think about it more, my only concern is what component bears the axial load that wants to pull the axle out of the hub. The snap ring makes the load transfer directly into the spindle. The "washer method" makes the hub gear bear the load. I guess the question is if this load is significant or not.
12-10-2013, 08:58 AM
#15
Registered User
I doubt it's significant, but I guess if it is, then the load will really be on the snap ring that holds the gear into the hub body. If that fails, it'll just let the gear move in to being against the spindle and allow stuff in between the cv axle and the brass bushing.
03-17-2014, 02:04 PM
#16
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Snap rings
Lost the snap ring needed to get to work .
10 miles round trip till I got home even though the bolt and washer were on the axle pulled out towards the differential.
enough that if I would have needed to use 4 wheel drive to get up the hill I would be walking
I now have 20 of these snap rings Stuff like this goes flying all the time only to vanish in flight never to be seen again.
It is your truck feel free to see how your idea works and please tell us
10 miles round trip till I got home even though the bolt and washer were on the axle pulled out towards the differential.
enough that if I would have needed to use 4 wheel drive to get up the hill I would be walking
I now have 20 of these snap rings Stuff like this goes flying all the time only to vanish in flight never to be seen again.
It is your truck feel free to see how your idea works and please tell us
03-17-2014, 06:59 PM
#18
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Examine this page.
When you go to your local dealer, do everyone a favor. Print the page with the drawing and the part numbers, and bring your VIN. They can check that the part really fits your vehicle, and they'll think you know what you're doing.
When you go to your local dealer, do everyone a favor. Print the page with the drawing and the part numbers, and bring your VIN. They can check that the part really fits your vehicle, and they'll think you know what you're doing.
03-18-2014, 11:23 AM
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wyoming9 -
This site says that 90520-36045 is the snap ring for the rear axle. It might be the same size (or even the same part); I assume your front wheels haven't fallen off any time recently. But unless I could put the two parts on a micrometer, I'd go with the one that Toyota says is the correct one.
This site says that 90520-36045 is the snap ring for the rear axle. It might be the same size (or even the same part); I assume your front wheels haven't fallen off any time recently. But unless I could put the two parts on a micrometer, I'd go with the one that Toyota says is the correct one.
