rlhd00z

hello.

i have found myself in quite the conundrum recently. a month or so ago, my truck had started to ride/idle a little rough, and on the way home one day the temp gauge started rising and fluctuating. and a frantic attempt to turn the heat on full blast to dissipate the heat provided equally fluctuating hot/cold air. the next day after the engine had cooled, i checked the coolant level and it was seemingly non-existent, yikes. so that weekend i tasked myself with replacing the thermostat and doing a coolant flush and refill.

so after that's said and done, still getting a rough drive/idle. after searching ye olde internet and these lovely forums, all signs seemed to point toward the TPS and throttle body. so i first try the quickest/easiest/cheapest solution of cleaning the throttle body...to no avail. so then i track down a TPS and stick that in...to no avail. i was also going to check/change the plugs, but couldnt get them out for the life of me (more on that in a minute).

ok, so i finally take it to a mechnic i'm comfortable with and trust last week. yesterday he calls me to give me the verdict...in short, i need a new engine. apparently coolant has/had gotten into a couple of the cylinders of which were also damaged/scratched up...in addition to damage to the engine from overheating (most likely from that ride home that one day, in addition to the overall low coolant level). he also said when he was messing with the plugs, he had a hella time getting them out/in, as when they were changed last, the person crossthreaded them

so now the juicy part of my concern, which i was hoping to get some feedback about...the headgasket, dealership accountabilty?

when i had first gotten the vehicle used in early 2000s (2002/2003), toyota sent me recall notices about the infamous headgasket issue with this engine, so i took it in to the dealer to get the work done...after all, headgasket work isnt cheap, and here i have an opportunity to get it done for free.i went ahead and had them do the timing belt as well since the engine would already be apart. and they did some radiator work. all that was done in 2004 at about 66000 miles. the truck only has about 93000 miles on it now...i should certainly hope a new headgasket would last longer than 30000 miles, with light driving...so the question is: was it installed incorrectly? and if so, is that something i can/should persue with toyota/the dealer since theyre the ones that did the work for this recall?

i plan to go to the mechanic to show him my records/history of the engine work and get his opinion as to whether all these troubles stemmed from this whole headgasket debacle.

ultimately think i will probably go ahead and get a replacement engine, as the truck itself is it pretty decent condition and i like it (of course, i will ask the mechanic his opinion on the overall condition to help justify the course of action). so should i not get anywhere with the dealer/toyota, what kind of rough/ballpark figure should i expect for an engine replacement from a qualified mechanic? he gave me an estimate, which is for a jasper rebuilt/manuf engine with a 3year/75000mile warranty. and i'm not auto-savvy enough to attempt to replace an engine myself, so the mechanic will be doing all the work, and the estimate he gave includes everything...engine, parts, labor, etc.

(and in case it wasnt caught from the title, the vehicle in question is a 1994 3.0L 4Runner )

so just a quick summary, since there was a fair amount of reading/history...

1) does this sound like a premature headgasket failure from a headgasket recall/replacement that was performed only 30000 miles ago? if so, should i contact/persue toyota to get the engine fixed/replaced?

2) if i do end up getting the engine "privately" replaced, what kind of rough/ballpark figures could i be expecting for something like a jasper rebuilt/remanuf engine with a 3yr/75k warranty, including all parts and labor?

thanks.

zlathim

1) I doubt you will get any satisfaction from Toyota, but I could be wrong.

2) I am not familiar with Jasper engines, but the ballpark for a remanufactured engine install should be $2,600 - $3,600 for parts and labor at an independant shop. If their labor rate > $80 an hour, or the engine itself costs more than about 2K, the cost would be higher than the ballpark I stated.

TNRabbit

1: Yes.

2: Jasper engines come with a warranty, but I've seen many fail in a short amount of time and the installer USUALLY won't cover labor cost one pulling/replacing it, so that is where the bulk of your cost is. I'd guess around $4-5k for everything initially.

rlhd00z

bollocks, seemingly somewhat conflicting views concerning contacting toyota so far. i guess overall it wouldnt hurt to see what they say...the big plus, is that if they are at fault, i could potentially get the engine replaced for 'free'.

the mechanic i'm dealing with initially proposed a lightly used engine imported from japan (JDM or something like that), but after checking on it, he said only the jaspers were available...so at least with this mechanic, jasper seems to be the main route. when i was poking around last night to try to get some sort of estimate i could expect/compare, jasper's site lists the replacement engine around 4000, so that was the base engine cost i was figuring in. now the mechanic quoted me about 7000, so you can understand my dismay when reading stuff about it potentially being closer to 4k-5k or even less. the price he quoted includes everything, which includes all parts and labor, as well as new oil cooler, which he says is required in order to get the warranty on the engine. i can only assume the quote includes removal and disposal of the old engine, as they didnt mention any added costs associated with that. the plus is that this is a mechanic ive dealt with before with my old toyota celica in the past and seems to do good, trustworthy work, which we all know a good mechanic can be hard to come by (its actually a datsun/nissan shop, so i'm comfortable/confidant that they know what theyre doing with import/japanese engines).

thanks for the quick replies, keep in input flowing as considering the costs involved its not going to be an easy decision for me

Innervision

I was in the same boat back in sept. 94 3.0 4runner and headgasket went. previous owner had it done at the dealership back 98 (I think they said). Called toyota HQ and they told that they will only do the HG recall once. So I swaped in a newly rebuilt 3.0 a friend had sitting in is truck that the frame had rusted in half and was no longer driveable.

You should be able to get an engine from japan (search Ebay) for around 2000. Then it will be another 1500-1800 to install at a shop. My dad has gotten engines from the junk yard for $600 before. So search your local yards for an engine. Its all a crap shoot though (ebay or junk yard) since the HG could go on those engines at any time. Some ebay engines do come with a warranty. Just depends on if the shop will install an engine you buy.

$7000 is really high. For that kind of money I would hope you were getting upgraded to a 3.4L

zlathim

I was probably too low in my guesstimate earlier. But man, $7k is way too much to spend for an engine. Where are you located?

rlhd00z

i'm located in the hampton roads, virginia area.

so a safe guesstimate for labor should be around 1500-1800? would removal and disposal of the old engine be included in something like that or is that extra labor and expense to factor in?

therein lies the potential problem with going through a junkyard/ebay/etc...that it's a crapshoot from reading on jasper's site, their engines are re-manufactured to oem spec, with new pistons, valves/springs, and claim updated procedures that "correct problems in original design". which i imagine contributes to the higher list price for the jasper

funny thing is that i wasnt having any HG problems...i had just gotten the recall notification advising of a possible HG problem, and that toyota would repair it for free, before anything bad happens...and now that something bad has happened two other people i've talked to think it falls on toyota and that they would go back to the dealer that fixed the recall and raise hell, as this is something that the recall was supposed to fix...so there is the possibilty that the recall was done incorrectly, contributing to the current situation. which the more i think about it, the more i think is what happened, because i never had any coolant problems before or running rough issues...then if it was slowly leaking into the engine from a faulty HG install, that explains why i never saw/smelled any sign of a coolant leak, which led my overheating one day, which led to subsequent engine damage. my fear with going back now is that it has been 4-5 years and 30k miles since the HG work was done (im a light driver)...plus the guy that looked at it last apparently crossthreaded the spark plugs, so i would be worried the dealer would make some stink about those two things, if overall it was indeed their fault.

yeah, while i was trying to do all my homework, the 3.4L upgrade seems to be the preferred way to go if going through all the trouble of an engine replacement. so that's something i need to check out as well.

rlhd00z

just a little mini-update on the damage done...

unfortunately the lead mechanic that looked at the truck had taken off today, so i had to get the dish from the clerk at the front counter via brief notes and recollection.

just from whatever basic peek he did w/o disassembling the engine, 2 of the cylinders had coolant in them, in addition to some scarring on the walls. also the exhaust manifold was broken/cracked in pieces, most likely from the overheating. i may slip out there again tomorrow when the guy is back to get his official word, but generically speaking, it sounds as though the best bet would be HG troubles, given the coolant in the cylinders, for which i will probably end up running up to the dealer that did the recall and talking with them about it

as far as the 7k, she said that that's out the door, everything...removal/disposal of old engine, 'new' jasper remanuf engine (3yr/75k warr), and included parts/labor, as well as a new oil cooler per the requisite for the warranty on the engine. as far as i know/assume, it's a quote for the 3.0L. i mentioned the possiblity of bumping up to a larger engine, which of course she said would cost more...but i would rather take that up with the mechanic since he's the one doing the work, as there are a few extra steps/parts involved in the 3.0>3.4 swap that i can tell.

rlhd00z

okies, if youre not tired of my ranting yet, just another mini-update...

i was able to slip by the shop this morning to talk to the actual lead tech that looked at the truck.

he personally didnt think i would get very far with toyota/the dealer, especially given the damage from the overheating. he said that once they saw that, that they would probably just thumb their nose at me essentially. the ceramic on at least one of the plugs had broken apart from the heat, which also took a little chunk of metal out of the corresponding cylinder wall, in addition to the all the scarring of the walls. as well as the cracked/broken exhaust manifold from the overheating. and that's the damage he found without taking the engine apart...so who's the say the head isnt cracked/busted as well.

as far as the 7k, that is pretty much new everything under the hood, out the door...engine, pumps, cables, plugs, fluids, oil cooler, etc. and labor, removal and installation. by the previous postings of what i might expect for an engine, up to 2k for a used/junkyard type engine, then another 1500-2000 for labor...so roughly 4k for a shop to install a used engine, if i figure correctly? given my research on jasper's site, their engine lists for about 4k...so that's where the extra cost with this 7k estimate seems to be coming from. but the thing with the jasper engine is that it's remanufactured to OEM spec, with all new "wear" parts, gaskets and fittings and whatnot, and has current engine "updates" (ie, newer HG, etc), as well as a nationwide 3yr/75k warranty.

so the 7k breakdown in my head figures out to...

~4k - "new" jasper remanufactured engine
~2k - total labor
~1k - any and all new parts/fluids/etc in between


of course, the flip side is just 'spend that money on another car and get rid of that one'. my woe with that is anything in that price range will have about the same amount of miles that i have on it now, plus the added factor of not knowing the car history. whereas i can spend the same amount on the car i have that i know the history of, and sort of restart with 0 miles.

and of course the last option of just buying something new, thus incurring a car payment

apologies for the spam postings and repetitive content...not a very light decision for me to make, so alot of it is thinking out loud trying to figure out what to do plus i am somewhat of a noob when it comes to something this major and just wanna make sure i make the right decision(s).

zlathim

I bought a remanufactured engine locally for $1,700. It came with new timing belt, w/p, idler and tensioner pullies, and all necessary gaskets. I think $4k is way too much to spend on a remaned engine. $1k for incidentals seems way high as well.

IIRC, AllData says 22.5 hours to install a longblock, and it includes swapping everything from the existing motor over to the remaned unit. Going by that, your mechanic is charging approx $90 an hour flat rate. That is about the only part of the estimate that does not seem to be totally out of line. I would check around some before you bite the bullet and drop $7k for a remanned engine.

swaycleveland

just me thinking out loud but a 3.4 swap might be the way to go! i just looked up car-parts.com for a 3.4 engine in virginia and looks like you can pick one up for under 2000
and with all the rest you could be under 4000 real easy.
like i said just me thinking out loud

iselloil

check out sunwest engines in medical lake washington. He did my 22re,and gave me a great quote on a 3.0 for my 4runner. Im in Richmond. He does a great job.

turborich

I would NEVER pay anywhere close to 7,000 dollars to have that engine purchased & installed. It seems like a very over inflated number to me. If it were mine I would get a good engine out of a wrecked truck & just do the swap myself. If you can't do the swap yourself I'm sure you could find a decent shop to do just the R&R for under $800 bucks, At least out here on the west coast you can.

You have to look at it this way, It's a 1994. How much is it worth? probably not $7,000 dollars even with a new engine in it. You don't want to be totally upside down in this vehicle.

About 8 years back I really wanted a Ford Bronco II, I looked around & found one that was flawless & 4WD but the engine was on it's last leg due to a leaky head gasket. I gave $1,000 for the vehicle & then picked up a good used engine out of a wrecked Ranger for $500 dollars. It took me about a full day to swap it all out & I had a great truck that I kept for 4 years. When I sold it I still got $3,500 for it. I'm just saying that good deals on used engines are out there. Right now at our local pic a part there is a complete 22RE engine & manual trans for $800 bucks & it comes with a warranty.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


here is an example of a 22RE for $700. I know yours is not a 4 cylinder, but it gives you an idea.

http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/pts/994479740.html

rlhd00z

alrighties, that's certain a little more to chew on

so it seems to be established that 7k is way too much for something like this, especially given the age, bluebook and whatnot of everything involved and if dishing that much, at least make sure it's a bump up to the 3.4L?

i guess at this point i'll begin a quest for old/used engines, with the possibility of the 3.4L swap on the table...and see what kind of costs and results i can make out of that, and shop around some local shops to get more/similar estimates (my only catch with the shop that gave the 7k estimate is that i think theyre pretty straightforward, reliable and trustworthy...my guess is that the inflated costs involves mainly the cost of the engine and parts).

a quick search on car-part.com yielded unsatisfactory results for the 3.0L, most of which were like 100 miles away and/or "parts only" or "burnt core". whereas a search for the 3.4L turned up a lot of hits, some of which are local...starting around 1000 and going up to 2500 (the ones for 2500 lists with low miles). so now/naturally i have some questions concerning the listings themselves, for instance, what do some of the descriptors mean...

4-98,4X2,V6,FAT,LIMITED

4-98 = month-year of manufacture?
FAT = ???
LIMITED = came out of a "Limited" edition (ie, 4Runner SR5 Limited)?

also, with the listed drivetrains...would i have to stick with an engine listed for a 4X4 or is that mainly there to designate that it came out of a truck with that drivetrain, for instance with the above listing as a 4X2...would that still work/fit in my 4X4? also the listings for 5speed vs auto (mine is auto)? ie, do i need to be concerned with all those descriptors or will any ole 5VZ-FE 3.4L's work, regardless of listed drivetrain, transmission, etc?

again, sorry for the plethora of noob questions, but...i'm a noob in all of this

thanks.

swaycleveland

doesnt matter about 4x or 2x i dont know what FAT is
here is some 3.4 swap links
maybe they will help


from what i hear this is a pretty straight forward swap its been done lots so the ins and out have already been done
do some searching i bet you find a TON
http://www.offroadsolutions.com/
Andrew Zook: http://www.andrewzook.com/content/view/22/48/

Manuals and Diagrams:

Technical Information System:

https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfo...l=ti_home_page

2000 Taco FSM: http://ncttora.com/fsm/2000/index.html

O2 sensor bypass schematic: http://www.vfaq.com/mods/O2bypass.html

ECU PN list: http://www.kingtec.net:81/images/upl.../26/125407.pdf

Hood Scoops:

http://www.autobarn.net/xxxhoodscoops.html

Supercharger:

Underdog Racing Development: http://www.urdusa.com/
Rolling Performance: http://www.rollingperformance.com/

Just a few off the top of my head. Please add to the post. As the info grows I'll clean this thread up and consolidate it all. Thanks.
__________________

swaycleveland

ok some of these links dont work ( i just copied them from the 3.4 swap section of yotatech but im sure youll find a ton of links about the whole thing

rlhd00z

alrighties, so an little bit of new/extra headway today...

stopped by a shop that pretty much does nothing but engines, and he gave me a "rough" quote of about 3500, which broke down to about 2500 for a used engine, and 1000 for labor (that was his guess on a price for a used engine, but didnt have anything specific lined up).

i mentioned to him what the possibility was of swapping in the 3.4L instead and he hadnt really heard of or dealt with that (first thing he assumed when i said i had a 4runner was a 22RE ). i told/persuaded him that it's actually one of the recommended paths to take, should the 3.0L ever go kaput, and told him there were even part kits and instructions out there, and he was all like "sure, get me some directions or some kind of roadmap and we'll see what we can do", and even said that they like doing new stuff like that, so that was encouraging and refreshing for me he was more than complacent about if i found any potential 3.4L's and/or he would even look around through his connections.

thanks again for all the input. i'm feeling a little more comfortable about things, especially financially and mechanically, given the engine shop's little bit of curiosity and enthusiasm for trying new things