Okay, so Im kinda retarded. Ive got a 82 22r bored 40 over with forged pistons and a Camden supercharger, pushing around 7psi.
I had a holley 500, and between multiple shops and tons of morons I found that I made an offroad truck that couldnt drive up a hill.
So... instead of anything logical I rebuilt the motor again and have a holley super sniper efi carb on it..... Im not expecting help on my system, Im just looking for engine specs. (you can voice your opinions or give advice)
So the comp for the super sniper carb needs info,
the displacement for the second gen 22r is 144... the 1rst gen has a taller deck and lower compression. wouldnt that be a different displacement? What would be my desired target AFR WOT without boost?........ 12.5 seems a happy start?
But then it wants my desired target AFR offset with boost..... based on a % of boost. ( im boosting 5-10psi)

any advice (other then ask LCE) helps..... they got me in this mess, selling ˟˟˟˟ they dont know about that isnt for use on inclines.

 

No carbureted setup is optimal for high angle running.
Carbs don't like bouncing around and sloshing either.
Fuel injection, or propane setups don't care and act pretty much the same regardless of angle.
My .02

 

oh Im well awhere of what people say, ive been on this site along time, ive done tonz of things with my toyota that I was told wasn't possible. My stock carb climbed hills no problem, it only died when I was upside down in a creek.... I'm not here for what I (can't) do

 

Glad I could help.

 

Ask Holley, duh.

 

Oh what an expensive web is wove in the pursuit of bolt of horsepower rather then producing more (or the same) power in the lower RPM ranges. So...

Before anyone of us can help you, you need to decide what you want to do. Be advised you can't have everything, as in low end power and high end power in the same package. A blower and an oversize carb is going to give you top end power...but the 22R isn't a top end engine unless you're going to throw ten-fifteen grand at it (or more).

22R and performance do not belong in the same sentence. The R (and F) series engine is derived from the inline 6 that was in WWII GMC trucks left in Japan!

"Early" and "late" 22R's had the same specs. They're both 9.0:1 compression. Displacement is calculated with bore and stroke and number of cylinders, compression ratio and/or combustion chamber volume do not factor in.

The Holley 500 is too big for this engine even with a blower. The 350 is a better choice. 500CFM is more then enough carb for a small block V8 at 6000RPM; the go to is the model 4160 600CFM. A bigger carb simply shifts the power band to higher RPM's at the expense of gutless low end and drivability. Holley sells an "Off Road" needle and seat...about $25

Carburetor CFM = CID X RPM X V.E. / 3456

The V.E.(Volumetric efficiency) of a 22R is at a low 65% at its high 85%. You give a range of 5-10psi of boost...that is a multiplication factor of 1.35 to 1.7 additional CFM. HINT...use the RPM were you would like the most power and drivability to be...not redline! 2000 to 4000 is a good RPM range for the 22R

Is your "super sniper" the two barrel? Likely too big then. You bought (or LCE sold to you) an induction system for a race engine for more or less WOT HP on levelish terrain. That's about all LCE knows how to do. They don't know much about off road other then racing off-road....Horsepower sells, torque wins!

What engine specs do you want? HP and Torque...only a dyno and/or fuel use will tell you that. I'm guessing if you ever get this to work maybe 145-150HP in an RPM range you'll NEVER use off road. Displacement? You now have a 177CID engine after boring it out .040". Now 4.02" X 3.5", stock 3.62" x 3.5". That in itself with the stock carb and manifold would have probably given you pleasing gains. Maybe slap an Offy manifold on it.

An air/fuel ratio of 12.5:1 is a good starting point....you will make maximum power with this. The offset is how much you want (or have) to deviate from this at your desired boost....talk to Holley.

Your stock carb climbed hills no problem so why did you change it?

My advice...every thing to the left of the cylinder head take off, replace with an OFFY dual plane manifold and stick either a Weber 32/36 on it or the stock carb, or the OFFY single plane and a Weber 38. Simple works best.

EDIT

Just remembered this tid bit...some where I recall seeing the 22R head could flow about 225CFM

 

Hey man, thx for all the info. The 500 was definitely too big for my setup. Heck my little weber made the truck run with the supercharger, But I could only go to around 2500 rpms.

The pre 85 toyota motors had taller decks and different pistons. I thought they had a lower compression ratio.

the truck started. But my 65psi fuel pump from holley puts out over 100psi. Their solution was to send me a new regulator for the supper sniper (it's built in)
they won't give engine specific advice anymore.
Or they don't know anything about 22r motors.

That's why I asked here.

My og carb had a gremlin in it. It came off so many years ago I can't even remember what it did. But it was just random. Hot motor, cold motor, driving fast driving slow...

ive got a stock intake manifold. If this setup fails.. I guess a webber.... but I'm miss burning 35" tires

 

What Weber? Now I only have had experience with the DCOE's on a Celica but if it was the 32/36 sounds like the secondary wasn't opening, or opening enough, or not jetted properly. I am not sure if they have seperate mixture tubes in the secondary but look into that. There is a recently revived thread here about a fellow with a blower on a 22R, maybe there is some help there? I think they used a 38. If you want to keep the blower maybe play around with the Weber again.

FYI carb flows....

Stock 20R, 180CFM
Stock 22R, 260 or 325CFM depending on the source. This was a good swap on a 20R apparently.
Weber 32/36, 325 CFM
Weber 38, 390 CFM

IF you can get Haynes Weber manual I believe there is some stuff about Webers and blowers in there.

I agree Holley doesn't know much about 22R's or small engines, domestic V6 and V8 yah, but they should know their product. They once made a manifold so you could put a 4 barrel on a 22R; a lot of guys put a 600 on with the expected poor results. Flow velocity rather then volume is needed at low engine speeds for power. Hence why those dual plane maniflods with split runners work well...they speed up the air/fuel charge to the cylinders...at the cost of top end power. Mashing your foot to to floor with those big carbs is like drilling a 1" hole in the manifold then wondering why it doesn't work, but once the engine gets it legs can run like a deer.

65 to 100PSI fuel pressure! Wow, that will be a problem!

Edelbrock doesn't know much either but they don't hide the fact, BUT the Edelbrock book if you can find it is gospel! OFFY is the only one that seems to have half a handle on these engines. Unfortunately the misnomer of "a high revving 4 cylinder" doesn't fit the 20-22R. Like I said they behave more like a small inline 6, capable but far from spirited engines!

Possibly you're confusing the 22RE...I believe later versions were 9.2:1 compression, but dont quote that, I may be 100% wrong there.

Forty years ago a lot of us that are "white hairs" now tried turning the "pigs ear performing" 22R into a Ferrari just to find out it doesn't work so don't beat yourself up with this. A very few got it to work but they had deep pockets and tons of patience.

 

It was a 32/36.... it runs fine on my buddies truck now. But you're probably right. I made an adapter for it in my garage just to see, the secondary may not have opened all the way

The holley super sniper calls for 65 fuel pressure
don't know why my pump is putting out almost twice that.

I found my pistons

• 1 of : Pro Piston Set(8.5:1) - 22R/RE/RET(81-84)(+.040")

so I am lower compression.... i do know the deck is taller on the 81-84. And alot of the parts don't interchange. (I cant find anything that says the stock compression on that motor though)
I've had 2 of those earlier motors
and ive got an 85 and 87 in my garage.

 

All 22R's were 9.0:1 compression. Early and late ones were different as you said. I can't think of a part which is interchangeable worth mentioning. With those 8.5:1 pistons you'll probably want to keep the blower to offset any power loss due to lower compression / compression pressure / efficiency; it won't be much but it will be noticeable at WOT and at the gas pumps; a 22R needs all the help it can get. A rough rule of thumb for compression pressure is 16 to 20 times compression ratio, so you can use this to calculate and put a number to the power loss to determine if it bothers you.

8.5:1 pistons are a rather odd ratio come to think off it. Why lower the compression in a normal aspirated engine? And its not enough drop for a super/turbo charged engine; usually they'd be around 7.5:1. Perhaps only LCE knows. Their write up says for boosted engines, with the usual disclaimer of up to 15% power gain but I wonder what grade of gasoline is needed to prevent detonation at high boosts?.

My duh...yah 65psi fuel pressure makes sense as that carb is throttle body fuel injection.

 

So, I'll chime in because I'm running the Sniper EFI 2300 on my '81. (not the Super, but it's pretty close to the same thing)
The likely thing with the fuel pressure issue is a kink or some restriction in your return line. Memory says that you should have no more than about 5psi in the return line.
Just to make sure we're talking the same thing, are you running the Super Sniper EFI 2300? The 2 barrel one?

I've been looking into doing the supercharger thing myself so I THINK I know what you're up against here. If it's the low boost version (you said like 7psi?) then the 8.5:1 pistons should be just about right.
What are your plans for ignition control under boost? I've seen 2 guys do slightly different things to lock out and phase their 22R distributors so that you can use the sniper timing control. I can look them up later if you're interested in what they did.

A question for you, how far does the supercharger stick out from the intake face of the head? I can't find dimensions for it, and I kinda want one, but I's not sure it will fit with my coilover towers punched up through the fenders.

In my experience, the Sniper EFI has been a bit fussy at first, but runs great once it's got some "Learn" under it's belt. It will pull a steep incline wheeling. I did some wheeling this year that made me really glad I wasn't running a carb anymore.
Best of luck to you and I'll try to help more if I can.

 

What's up Bingle,

I unhooked the return line to check that. I've talked to 2 different holley guys, they are sending me a new regulator. One the guys explained that I should have alot of fuel returning to the tank at idol, and then at WOT I'll actually have enough fuel to not run lean, And very little fuel returning.

also as far as I was told with the ignition system, all I need is the yellow tach wire connected to my coil. (Reading tach)
my truck has an external ignitor on the coil. So I have my tach wired to the emissions computer. And the holley piggybacking with it. Hoping the sniper is okay with that.

my dissy was actually custom made by.. Brain I think?. He was the lead engine builder at LCE, just have to get passed the front desk ˟˟˟˟s to talk to him.
This was with my old holley 500 setup.
but if I recall correctly he put caps on its advances, and told me where to set timing. ( not at idol)

Also ya, it's the low boost. Just looked at there website, bought the damn thing in 2016.... Radiator barely clears with a custom upper hose.
also make sure you get the right pulley. Camden fits them to the supercharger, you cant just willie nillie grab one out of the pile. LCE claimed no fault.
But i machined out my pulley and cut my own key. (Camden told me to send it all to them and theyd make it right)

 

550-852. 2barrel supper sniper.

From the head. 9" to suppercharger. And about 15-16" to the regulator and fuel lines on the sniper

 

Thanks for the pic and measurement! As I suspected, I don't think it will work on mine, probably be a couple inches into the sniper with where my coilover tower sticks up.

What you're running for ignition control is pretty much what I am. I didn't know that LC had different distributors set up for boosted applications, now I do. SHOULD work fine. Some guys were just trying to utilize the sniper ignition timing control functionality (I just let the dizzy do it's job and have the rpm signal to the sniper like you), so you could have your advance/retard controlled by the sniper. Then it would be dependent on rpm and how much vac/boost you were making.
Sounds like your LC dizzy is set to cap the advance lower so that when boost builds you wouldn't have detonation problems.

A fuel pressure regulator "fix" I've seen is to remove the plastic filter screen piece on the FPR and put it back in like that. Might get you going until the new FPR shows up? The screen gets clogged really easy, sometimes just from tiny bits of new soft line when they were cut, and will cause high fuel pressure.

 

Oh idk if LC has them per say (pretty sure it was Brian, lead engine builder, i "bought" the dissy then he modified and shipped. The sales guy was very confused. Id have to dig out my paperwork)
... I blew the tops off my brand new pistons. And wasn't rebuilding my motor again till i got better answers on my setup.
a bad AFR gauge was the main culprit.

Side note. I have a 1-2 inch body lift on my truck(kinda a 4runner on a truck frame). So that makes the carb alot closer to the wheelwell. But not alot of room for your towers.

 

It makes sense that they'd have a "custom curve" setup that could be done on request for the boosted setup because they sell the supercharger.
Sucks you burnt up new pistons. Part of why I'm nervous about trying any forced induction. I may be lacking in power, but it's super reliable power.

I have 2" body lift as well. I think the towers are "in" too far, and stick up a few inches through the fenders even with 2" BL. I'll get an engine bay pic and post when I get home, just because it's another sniper 2300 22R setup.

To be honest, I've had a few troubleshoot headaches with the sniper. It isn't quite as "bolt on and go" as Holley makes it seem. Once I got it sorted out it has been a solid running setup.
I feel for you because seems like compounding headaches because of dealing with the supercharger too.

Have you tried/did you understand what I was saying about the filter screen on the sniper fuel pressure regulator?

 

found it, its is Bryan the engine builder.... Ive got max timing wrote as 26 degrees. Ive got an adjustable timing light and currently trying to get my old, old phone to turn on, cause I think its got all the timing specs in it..
I want to do a carb turbo set up..... hopefully not on this truck. fml.
But just make sure you got 100gpm of fuel (so the hot rod guys tell me).... Ive got a 2 stage regulator, so I could run a high-pressure pump and drop down to 7psi.

And ya, think i follow you on the filter. Honestly should have the new FPR in today. but my cars blocking my truck in the garage..... 99 subaru rsti that just dyno'd 420whp and my slave/master cylinder went out on the drive home, pretty sure if that 6puck clutch even lets me start it im cross traffic and into the woods in a couple secs....

I havent even got to see the sniper efi part working... they say its suppose to flash rpms when you start the truck, mine just loads the data screen. (black screen green letters/numbers)
According to old83@pintcher my displacement is 177 now, and I really think/hope he's right... So guess I should run the wizard again.

 

Yeah, until you get it to run you won't be seeing much from the sniper. Might check your math on 177ci. 22R should be about 147ci +/- a couple. A 2.7 liter would be 164.8ci. But, I believe going a bit bigger on the ci in the wizard is totally fine, especially with supercharger that effectively creates bigger displacement. And the super sniper is asking you a few extra questions due to boost.

In the end, the wizard engine displacement/cam/etc questions create a "Holley best guess base map" to get started from and generally run the engine, but that map will start getting changed right after it starts learning (engine up to temp). The more you drive it in various conditions the better it gets/runs.

The target AFR numbers do hold though and the Sniper will continually try to hit those #'s by adjusting fuel depending on what the O2 is reading.
12.5 sounds good for WOT without boost
Not sure on with boost #. Probably not less than 13.5 just to be safe. maybe you want richer with boost, more like 11.5 or so? More a question for supercharger/turbo guys.
I'd say to error on the side of rich AFR's to begin, especially because of boost. Don't want to burn up another set of pistons or worse. (I may be telling you things you already know as a boosted Subi guy)
If you change those target numbers down the road it doesn't start you from scratch on your whole map learn. I played with my cruise and WOT AFR targets on a long highway trip to see where the engine was happiest and MPG was minorly better (with my finely calibrated butt dyno). Probably have more playing to do.
You will probably have to do a ton of fine tuning to get it just right after you get it running decent, but for initial setup, err on the safe side.

 

I'll look at a few of my settings and what pops up on the screen during startup when I get home tonight.
Hoping I can be of some help because this will be a pretty sweet setup if you can get it running right.

 

Sorry MY math was off. The proper displacement should be 147ci. Should trust my pencil and paper rather then a calculator. A thousand apologizes. I can't say what engine I was thinking of with a 3.98" bore.

Now I am curious of what gain 5psi is going to make at "normal" engine speeds, at full power I can see. Maybe it's just some of my back ground with emergency diesel generators coming into this where the benefits of super/turbo charging isn't evident until over 60-70% of full load. (vs normally aspirated)