Mountain Snowflake Symbol

mtnhrdgr2 · 10-20-2009, 09:21 PM

Per Tire Rack:
The U.S. Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) agreed on a performance based standard to identify passenger and light truck tires that attain a traction index equal to, or greater than 110 (compared to a reference tire which is rated 100) during the specified American Society for Testing and Materials traction tests on packed snow. The new standard helps ensure that drivers can easily identify tires that provide a higher level of snow traction. A mountain/snowflake symbol branded on the tire's sidewall identifies tires that met the required performance in snow testing.

From a Canadian transportation government website.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/t...winter-424.htm
Tires marked "M + S" (Mud and Snow), or "all season" tires that do not have the peaked mountain with snowflake symbol, may provide safe performance in most weather conditions, but are not designed for snow and ice-covered roads. At temperatures below 7°C, standard tires begin to lose elasticity, resulting in reduced traction. Winter tires retain their elasticity to grip at much lower temperatures.

Anyone know any more than what I have pasted. Are tires with this symbol overrated? Is it worth purchasing a tire with this symbol over another?

FYI...
Just trying to get better educated on this symbol. I'm in the market for new tires. While I use my newly purchased 1987 4Runner (pretty much stock) as a daily driver (San Jose, CA), I do often go to the Sierras to go skiing. As such I do need a good AT tire that does good in snow and ice as well as dry/wet paved roads, and the occassional fire/log trails.

I have narrowed my choices to
BFG AT/KO 33x10.5
Bridgestone AT Revo 2...31x10.5 (no 33s)
Goodyear Wrangler Silent Armor 31x10.5 (again no 33s) and this has the mountain snowflake symbol

My dilema: Is it worth purchasing a tire with the mountain snowflake symbol over another?

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/survey...ll&sortValue=1
Per tire rack reviews, out of the three the Goodyear and Revo1 get better ratings than the BFG, but BFG has the size I want. Based on the mountain snowflake symbol, I was starting to lean towards the Goodyear.

(Not trying to get advice on which tire to buy as this subject has been discussed in many other threads but if you want to throw in your opinions, i wouldn't be opposed

)

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malteserunner · 10-20-2009, 09:46 PM

I live in the Sierra's, and I wouldn't think it would make much difference in your case, given the provided information. Based on your post, those tires would be beneficial in extremely cold conditions. The temps aren't that cold in the Sierra's. From personal experience, the BFG AT's do well in the snow, and they wont wear out too quickly pavement pounding in San Jose. Best of luck with whatever you choose.

mtnhrdgr2 · 10-20-2009, 10:22 PM

The copy/paste from Canada mentioned at '7°C standard tires lose it's elasticity' thus losing traction. 7°C is only 44°F. It's typically in the 20s F in the winter there, right? I know 2 years ago, I was at Heavenly and it was 0°F (my first time experiencing 0F).

Since you live there, you would definitely experience more ice than I ever will. How has your BFG AT KOs handled in the ice?

On another topic...I looked at your build thread. Love those bumpers. I just might have to order some from you!

X-AWDriver · 10-21-2009, 07:03 AM

My Nittos TGs don't wear a snowflake symbol and they did quite well over 4 Colorado winters and their pavement manners wet and dry were much better than any previous sets of BFGs I'd driven on. IMO BFGs are overrated except where off roading is concerned but on DD I'd pick something that has better resistance to hydroplaning which BFGs leave a bit to be desired.

I'm on GY Duratracs and so far in the little snow and ice we've had on our roads they have performed even better than the Nittos but I need a real snow to judge them. The Duratracs do have the snowflake symbol.

nv4runner · 10-21-2009, 07:38 AM

I think that having that mountain/snow flake design can get you out of having to put on chains when chains/snow tires are required. Occasionally chains and or 4wd are mandatory in the sierras.

malteserunner · 10-21-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtnhrdgr2

The copy/paste from Canada mentioned at '7°C standard tires lose it's elasticity' thus losing traction. 7°C is only 44°F. It's typically in the 20s F in the winter there, right? I know 2 years ago, I was at Heavenly and it was 0°F (my first time experiencing 0F).

Since you live there, you would definitely experience more ice than I ever will. How has your BFG AT KOs handled in the ice?

On another topic...I looked at your build thread. Love those bumpers. I just might have to order some from you!

Sorry, I didn't catch the °C. I wouldn't say the BFG is the best of the best, but of the tires you listed, it's the one I have experience with in the snow and ice. I've also run a set of Pro Comp AT's that did very well. My tire choices typically result from finding a great deal, and I always prefer an AT or MT because I use my vehicles off road frequently. In your case, you may prefer a more highway friendly tire.

Thanks for the compliment on the bumpers. I'm really enjoying mine, and they're holding up great to abuse off road, as well as winching. I will be building a production rear for my 4Runner within the next month, so keep your eyes peeled.

mtnhrdgr2 · 10-21-2009, 11:09 AM

X-AW: I'd love to hear about those Duratracs after all that snow and ice hit CO. Post up and let us know. I'll also do a search here in yotatech on those Duratracs.

NV4Runner: That is what I thought too at first. Then I started googling. Since I live in CA, I looked for CA laws. Here is what I found:
Snow conditions on the highways are desginated with R1, R2, or R3. When it is R1, chains are required unless vehicle is under 6K pounds and have snow tires. When it is R2, only 4Wheel drive vehicles less than 6.5K pounds with snow tires (AT tires are included) do not need to put the chains on, but it still needs to be in the vehicle. Everyone else needs chains. In R3 conditions, all vehicles (no exceptions) need to have chains on the tires.

-------------
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/trucks/ops-guide/chains.html
There are three primary categories of chain restrictions, as shown below:
R-1: Chains are required on all vehicles except passenger vehicles and light-duty trucks under 6,000 pounds gross weight and equipped with snow tires on at least two drive wheels. Chains must be carried by vehicles using snow tires. All vehicles towing trailers must have chains on one drive axle. Trailers with brakes must have chains on at least one axle.
R-2: Chains are required on all vehicles except four-wheel-drive vehicles under 6,500 pounds gross weight and equipped with snow tires on all four wheels. Chains for one set of drive wheels must be carried by four wheel-drive vehicles using snow tires.
R-3: Chains are required on all vehicles without exception.
R-1 and R-2 are the most common conditions. A highway will often be closed before an R-3 condition is imposed. Some local areas may use variations of these designations. You must follow the directions on the signs posted for chain controls or any instructions given by Caltrans or CHP personnel at chain control check points, even if these are at variance with broadcast road condition reports or information contained herein.
-------------

At this point, I am starting to think that the mountain snowflake symbol wil eventually be an advantage over other tires without this symbol, but it is not 'autmatic' just yet. The more I search, the more I am finding that there are many current AT/M+S tires that meet the standards of this symbol, but have yet to have this actual symbol on the tires themselves.

okie81 · 10-21-2009, 12:45 PM

Interesting stuff, I've never delt with R-3 before; here in CA, they'll close a road when 3 flakes of snow fall on it

malteserunner · 10-21-2009, 01:55 PM

I've only had to deal with the R3 restrictions a few times here, and only off the main highways. They usually close the highways if it's that bad, because all the people who don't know how to drive in those conditions are already in a ditch. I love going out to do recoveries when that happens. Tons of fun, and you can make some extra cash.

Greenman · 10-21-2009, 09:34 PM

I've run 2 of your 3 choices on my '98 Taco. Here's my $0.02:

BFG 33x10.5 ATs were very good off-road, though a step down from my previous BFG MTs. They didn't do particularly well on-road. Their snow and ice performance was mediocre at best, and I get a lot of experience with that here at 8,000' in Colorado with three miles of sporadically plowed rural road to my house. The BFG ATs needed frequent balancing, like every 5-6k miles, and my tire shop said that is very typical of the BFG ATs. They also wore out relatively quickly.

The Bridgestone Dueler Revo 31x10.5 is what I'm running now and it's been great. It's snow and ice performance has been much better than the BFGs. I think it's a combination of the tread pattern and a special rubber compound that doesn't harden up as much at low temperatures. Their off-road traction has been as good as the BFG ATs everywhere but the worst mud, and the difference there hasn't been too big. If I were a really mudder I'd be running MTs though. The Revos have been quieter on pavement and I haven't had to balance them in the 15k mile year since I had them installed, they're also wearing about 20% more slowly. I wish they were a couple inches taller, but I'll probably put on another pair just like the ones I've got when they wear out.

BTW. I've run all the above tires both siped and unsiped, and the siping makes a big difference on snow and ice. Seriously, I don't have to chain up nearly as often getting in and out of my house since I started getting my tires siped.

Best of luck, and let us know what you choose.

bayarea4x4 · 10-22-2009, 03:48 PM

I have also tried researching this to all hell. I just picked up a 01 4runner that currently has nearly bald michelin cross terrains.

I have spoken with nearly all local tire places and tire rack. My driving style is probably 90% on-road/freeway with 10% split between tahoe in snow and fireroads.

I think I am going to be going with Michelin AT/2's in stock size. Everyone I have talked to said this will do well in freeway snow (mainly packed stuff) and will last quite a long time. It unfortunately doesn't have the snowflake which I was looking for. If that was the case I was looking at GY SA or duratrac but both are a bit more extreme than what I need.

Not sure what your budget is since these are a bit more but another option that has been highly rated from almost all shops in the east bay. Has anyone run these?

Josh

mtnhrdgr2 · 10-23-2009, 08:53 AM

Definitely thanks to everyone's input. I think at this point, I am probably either gonna go with Goodyear SA or the Revo2. The BFG AT (per tire rack) just does not get as good enough ratings in the wet/rain and the ice/snow.

I however am going to wait till the day after thanksgiving to buy the tires, just in case there are some decent sales at that time. I'll let you guys know what I buy.

In the meantime, I will keep researching on the mountain snowflake symbol. If I find anything new worth telling you all, I'll post up.

swaycleveland · 10-23-2009, 10:26 AM

I know you didnt want a tire recommedation but have you looked into nokian tires? they are supposed to be great and most carry the severe weather rating. they are also priced great and from what i know about them they are the oringinator of snow tires as we know them today.

**Lysmachia** · 10-23-2009, 10:34 AM

Troy (~TC~) and I drove his runner often to steamboat (CO) over 2 gnarly passes on BFG 33x10.5 ATs and they were great with ice and snow. Temps on those passes were at a max 20 deg F, and sometimes 0 degrees. We now have the KM2's but can't report our personal experience as to highway driving in ice and snow. Off road in the snow they are better than the BFG AT's.

I will say the GoodYear MTR's sucked in Ice and snow on pavement. But that could have also been, the Rear Detroit locker and the front TruTrac. Either way I would never drive Tippy (if she ran) on icy pavement again. I had to carry Tire chains for that very reason whenever we would do a winter trip to Farmington (over Wolf Creek Pass) or to Moab (Over Eisenhower and Vail passes)

mtnhrdgr2 · 10-31-2009, 11:55 PM

This is a bit off topic, but I am just letting you guys know what I picked.

BFG AT KOs: Tire rack only rated these ok for wet/rain, and ice. I went to 4 tire shops in my area and they all pretty much said the same thing.

Out of the 4 tire shops, only Discount/America's tire could order the Revo2s. In the end, since this is such a new tire, I decided I didnt want to be one of the 'beta' testers for this tire.

Hence this is how I ended up with the GY Silent Armors.

I know I didnt want to buy tires from an online shop, in case I had to do any returns. 3 of the 4 places had the SAs at 160 to 170 per tire. Luckily, Discount/Americas Tire matched Tire Rack at $140 (and since this is a 'brick and mortar' store order, I didnt have to pay for shipping like I would have from an online store). I also get to take advantage of the $80 mail-in-rebate. Taking the rebate into consideration, I paid $120/tire. It's the best that I could do for a non-online store.

FYI...
I really didnt learn anything new from these 4 shops about the Mountain Snowflake symbol. Everything they told me has already been discussed in the above posts.

Yet on another topic...I just broke the 300K mileage barrier!!

10-20-2009, 09:46 PM	#2 (permalink)
malteserunner Contributing Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Ca Posts: 520	I live in the Sierra's, and I wouldn't think it would make much difference in your case, given the provided information. Based on your post, those tires would be beneficial in extremely cold conditions. The temps aren't that cold in the Sierra's. From personal experience, the BFG AT's do well in the snow, and they wont wear out too quickly pavement pounding in San Jose. Best of luck with whatever you choose. __________________ 87 4Runner, 22re, 5 spd, 4.88, ARB rear, Mile Marker PE8000, Downey Header, TG Sliders, 3" BL, Home Fab Front and Rear Bumper, WabFab Bikini Top, Rustoleum OD Green. Build Thread 98 Tacoma Prerunner, 2.7, 340k. 91 4Runner, V6. 5 speed, Pro Comp lift, 33's, Rock Crawlers. Sold. Parting Out- 97 T-100

10-21-2009, 07:03 AM	#4 (permalink)
X-AWDriver Contributing Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Littleton,CO Posts: 10,179	My Nittos TGs don't wear a snowflake symbol and they did quite well over 4 Colorado winters and their pavement manners wet and dry were much better than any previous sets of BFGs I'd driven on. IMO BFGs are overrated except where off roading is concerned but on DD I'd pick something that has better resistance to hydroplaning which BFGs leave a bit to be desired. I'm on GY Duratracs and so far in the little snow and ice we've had on our roads they have performed even better than the Nittos but I need a real snow to judge them. The Duratracs do have the snowflake symbol. __________________ '99 4Runner Highlander 4wd E-locker,rear diff and deckplate mod * 265/75/16 Nitto TerraGrapplers * Yakima Load Warrior rack * clear corners/signals * Tacoma skidplate * Silverstar lamps/fogs Alpine CDA-9831,Bazooka EL Series 250w amp,MTX 10" sub

10-21-2009, 07:38 AM	#5 (permalink)
nv4runner Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 203	I think that having that mountain/snow flake design can get you out of having to put on chains when chains/snow tires are required. Occasionally chains and or 4wd are mandatory in the sierras. __________________ 92 4Runner 5 spd V6 31X10.5X15LT, Aisin Manual Locking Hubs, K&N FIPK, Converted HID Driving Lights, Fog Lights, Rear in Bumper Mini Flood Lights

10-21-2009, 11:09 AM	#7 (permalink)
mtnhrdgr2 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 16	X-AW: I'd love to hear about those Duratracs after all that snow and ice hit CO. Post up and let us know. I'll also do a search here in yotatech on those Duratracs. NV4Runner: That is what I thought too at first. Then I started googling. Since I live in CA, I looked for CA laws. Here is what I found: Snow conditions on the highways are desginated with R1, R2, or R3. When it is R1, chains are required unless vehicle is under 6K pounds and have snow tires. When it is R2, only 4Wheel drive vehicles less than 6.5K pounds with snow tires (AT tires are included) do not need to put the chains on, but it still needs to be in the vehicle. Everyone else needs chains. In R3 conditions, all vehicles (no exceptions) need to have chains on the tires. ------------- http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/trucks/ops-guide/chains.html There are three primary categories of chain restrictions, as shown below: R-1: Chains are required on all vehicles except passenger vehicles and light-duty trucks under 6,000 pounds gross weight and equipped with snow tires on at least two drive wheels. Chains must be carried by vehicles using snow tires. All vehicles towing trailers must have chains on one drive axle. Trailers with brakes must have chains on at least one axle. R-2: Chains are required on all vehicles except four-wheel-drive vehicles under 6,500 pounds gross weight and equipped with snow tires on all four wheels. Chains for one set of drive wheels must be carried by four wheel-drive vehicles using snow tires. R-3: Chains are required on all vehicles without exception. R-1 and R-2 are the most common conditions. A highway will often be closed before an R-3 condition is imposed. Some local areas may use variations of these designations. You must follow the directions on the signs posted for chain controls or any instructions given by Caltrans or CHP personnel at chain control check points, even if these are at variance with broadcast road condition reports or information contained herein. ------------- At this point, I am starting to think that the mountain snowflake symbol wil eventually be an advantage over other tires without this symbol, but it is not 'autmatic' just yet. The more I search, the more I am finding that there are many current AT/M+S tires that meet the standards of this symbol, but have yet to have this actual symbol on the tires themselves. Last edited by mtnhrdgr2; 10-21-2009 at 01:22 PM. Reason: fixing some typos

10-21-2009, 12:45 PM	#8 (permalink)
okie81 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Nor, CAL Posts: 1,160	Interesting stuff, I've never delt with R-3 before; here in CA, they'll close a road when 3 flakes of snow fall on it __________________ 2001 Toyota 4Runner SR5 4-Dub TRD supercharger, Thorley Headers, URD 7th, Toytec Coilovers, OME 890's, baseball card in spokes

10-20-2009, 10:22 PM	#3 (permalink)
mtnhrdgr2 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 16	The copy/paste from Canada mentioned at '7°C standard tires lose it's elasticity' thus losing traction. 7°C is only 44°F. It's typically in the 20s F in the winter there, right? I know 2 years ago, I was at Heavenly and it was 0°F (my first time experiencing 0F). Since you live there, you would definitely experience more ice than I ever will. How has your BFG AT KOs handled in the ice? On another topic...I looked at your build thread. Love those bumpers. I just might have to order some from you!

10-21-2009, 01:55 PM	#9 (permalink)
malteserunner Contributing Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Ca Posts: 520	I've only had to deal with the R3 restrictions a few times here, and only off the main highways. They usually close the highways if it's that bad, because all the people who don't know how to drive in those conditions are already in a ditch. I love going out to do recoveries when that happens. Tons of fun, and you can make some extra cash. __________________ 87 4Runner, 22re, 5 spd, 4.88, ARB rear, Mile Marker PE8000, Downey Header, TG Sliders, 3" BL, Home Fab Front and Rear Bumper, WabFab Bikini Top, Rustoleum OD Green. Build Thread 98 Tacoma Prerunner, 2.7, 340k. 91 4Runner, V6. 5 speed, Pro Comp lift, 33's, Rock Crawlers. Sold. Parting Out- 97 T-100

10-21-2009, 09:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
Greenman Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Near Durango, CO Posts: 21	I've run 2 of your 3 choices on my '98 Taco. Here's my $0.02: BFG 33x10.5 ATs were very good off-road, though a step down from my previous BFG MTs. They didn't do particularly well on-road. Their snow and ice performance was mediocre at best, and I get a lot of experience with that here at 8,000' in Colorado with three miles of sporadically plowed rural road to my house. The BFG ATs needed frequent balancing, like every 5-6k miles, and my tire shop said that is very typical of the BFG ATs. They also wore out relatively quickly. The Bridgestone Dueler Revo 31x10.5 is what I'm running now and it's been great. It's snow and ice performance has been much better than the BFGs. I think it's a combination of the tread pattern and a special rubber compound that doesn't harden up as much at low temperatures. Their off-road traction has been as good as the BFG ATs everywhere but the worst mud, and the difference there hasn't been too big. If I were a really mudder I'd be running MTs though. The Revos have been quieter on pavement and I haven't had to balance them in the 15k mile year since I had them installed, they're also wearing about 20% more slowly. I wish they were a couple inches taller, but I'll probably put on another pair just like the ones I've got when they wear out. BTW. I've run all the above tires both siped and unsiped, and the siping makes a big difference on snow and ice. Seriously, I don't have to chain up nearly as often getting in and out of my house since I started getting my tires siped. Best of luck, and let us know what you choose. __________________ '98 Coma, Flip-Pac, 3" suspension lift, 33" tires, manual hubs, rear air locker, raised rear diff breather Last edited by Greenman; 10-21-2009 at 09:39 PM.

10-22-2009, 03:48 PM	#11 (permalink)
bayarea4x4 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 7	I have also tried researching this to all hell. I just picked up a 01 4runner that currently has nearly bald michelin cross terrains. I have spoken with nearly all local tire places and tire rack. My driving style is probably 90% on-road/freeway with 10% split between tahoe in snow and fireroads. I think I am going to be going with Michelin AT/2's in stock size. Everyone I have talked to said this will do well in freeway snow (mainly packed stuff) and will last quite a long time. It unfortunately doesn't have the snowflake which I was looking for. If that was the case I was looking at GY SA or duratrac but both are a bit more extreme than what I need. Not sure what your budget is since these are a bit more but another option that has been highly rated from almost all shops in the east bay. Has anyone run these? Josh

10-23-2009, 08:53 AM	#12 (permalink)
mtnhrdgr2 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 16	Definitely thanks to everyone's input. I think at this point, I am probably either gonna go with Goodyear SA or the Revo2. The BFG AT (per tire rack) just does not get as good enough ratings in the wet/rain and the ice/snow. I however am going to wait till the day after thanksgiving to buy the tires, just in case there are some decent sales at that time. I'll let you guys know what I buy. In the meantime, I will keep researching on the mountain snowflake symbol. If I find anything new worth telling you all, I'll post up. __________________ 1987 4Runner, 4-Cyl, 5spd, 31x10.50 GY Wrangler Silent Armors on 15x7 steel wheels, just broke 300K miles and counting, rebuilt engine and tranny, daily driver

10-23-2009, 10:26 AM	#13 (permalink)
swaycleveland Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: north ridgeville ohio Posts: 382	I know you didnt want a tire recommedation but have you looked into nokian tires? they are supposed to be great and most carry the severe weather rating. they are also priced great and from what i know about them they are the oringinator of snow tires as we know them today. __________________ 1993 4runner 4x4 3.0 automatic 237k and counting $1600. new cat and muffler factory 488s REAR SUPRA LSD MOD BY ZUK manual lock out upgrade! new moog rear coils! new Paint ! mc rear bumper trail gear sliders 16x7 2001 rims with 285 terra grapplers NO LIFT Taurus e fan mod 1st gen rollbar custom 1/8inch front skid next up .... tank relocation

10-31-2009, 11:55 PM	#15 (permalink)
mtnhrdgr2 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 16	I chose the GY Wrangler Silent Armors This is a bit off topic, but I am just letting you guys know what I picked. BFG AT KOs: Tire rack only rated these ok for wet/rain, and ice. I went to 4 tire shops in my area and they all pretty much said the same thing. Out of the 4 tire shops, only Discount/America's tire could order the Revo2s. In the end, since this is such a new tire, I decided I didnt want to be one of the 'beta' testers for this tire. Hence this is how I ended up with the GY Silent Armors. I know I didnt want to buy tires from an online shop, in case I had to do any returns. 3 of the 4 places had the SAs at 160 to 170 per tire. Luckily, Discount/Americas Tire matched Tire Rack at $140 (and since this is a 'brick and mortar' store order, I didnt have to pay for shipping like I would have from an online store). I also get to take advantage of the $80 mail-in-rebate. Taking the rebate into consideration, I paid $120/tire. It's the best that I could do for a non-online store. FYI... I really didnt learn anything new from these 4 shops about the Mountain Snowflake symbol. Everything they told me has already been discussed in the above posts. Yet on another topic...I just broke the 300K mileage barrier!! __________________ 1987 4Runner, 4-Cyl, 5spd, 31x10.50 GY Wrangler Silent Armors on 15x7 steel wheels, just broke 300K miles and counting, rebuilt engine and tranny, daily driver

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