rbuchmann

Just out of curiosity, tried the Royal Purple line for their engines, trannies, diffs? Just curious if the cost is worth it.

Appleseed

Well I managed to find GL-4 locally. NAPA sells Sta-Lube (from CRC) straight GL-4. However, its 85W-90. It only came in gallon jugs so I bought 2 so I could do both the trans and transfer case. Turns out that the total cost is $80.00. I can order 6 MT-90 quarts, in the correct weight, online for $86.00 delivered. I think I'm going Redline.

Just thought I'd throw this out there to anyone desperate for GL-4.

BTW, is there anything wrong with the slight difference between 80W-90 and 85W-90?

Appleseed

.....

daved5150

iTrader: (1)

"When people say they like MT-90, they may think they're somehow saving their transmission from damage but they're really not.

What they are feeling, and what causes them to recommend it, is the higher shift quality. This comes from other properties of how the oil is mixed but not because it's GL-4 specifically."

About 75W90 GL-5 Gear Oil from Red Line's site:

This product is not designed for use in most manual transmissions or transaxles in passenger vehicles, since the extreme slipperiness may cause synchronizer mesh issues that lead to shifting problems

because

Ester base stocks and friction modifiers provide additional slipperiness to lower operating temperatures by reducing the sliding friction in hypoid gears

and also

Contains additional friction modifiers for suitability with clutch-type limited slip differentials - for most LSDs, no additional friction modifiers are required


[/B]and

Engineered to provide the highest degree of protection and improvement of differential efficiency for better mileage, longer drain intervals, and less wear

What I am pointing out is the fact that GL5 rated gear oil is designed for the applications involving hypoid gears found in differentials and not for most synchronized manual transmissions. Do I have personal experience with using a GL5 in the tranny? No, I don't because I am using what has worked well for me. I know that when I use a GL4 rated gear oil or for me, currently Synchromesh, which was not specifically designed for use in our transmissions but rather Chrysler and GM sychroed trannys, that the transmission is still wearing, if that's what you mean Jerry. If not, what did you mean by "saving their transmission from damage?"

Why wouldn't you want a higher shift quality which means the wear items in the tranny, the synchros, are meshing and engaging the way they are supposed to and will last longer? By using a GL5 which due to the additive package, is more slippery and will not let the synchronizers mesh properly which will cause hard shifting. This in turn puts more pieces of metal in the oil. I don't think selling GL4 rated oil is pointless. I do think selling a "universal" oil that has both the 4 and 5 rating is useless because the two are not designed for the same applications. From this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_oil:

GL-5 is not necessarily backward-compatible in synchro-mesh transmissions which are designed for a GL-4 oil: GL-5 has a lower coefficient of friction due to the higher concentration of EP additives over GL-4, and thus synchros can not engage as effectively. Also, transmissions which explicitly call for GL-4 oil may have been designed around this lower concentration of EP additives and thus may contain yellow metal parts which GL-5 will corrode.

API GL-4. Oils for various conditions - light to heavy. They contain up to 4.0% effective anti-scuffing additives. Designed for bevel and hypoid gears which have small displacement of axes, the gearboxes of trucks, and axle units. These oils are standard for synchronized gearboxes, especially in Europe, and may also be recommended for non-synchronized gearboxes of US trucks, tractors and buses and for main and other gears of all vehicles. GL-4 oils may also be used in many limited-slip differentials.

API GL-5. Oils for severe conditions. They contain up to 6.5% effective anti-scuffing additives. The general application of oils in this class are for hypoid gears having significant displacement of axes, generally non limited-slip differentials. They are recommended as universal oils to all other units of mechanical transmission (except synchronized gearboxes specifying GL-4). Some GL-5 oils in this class, which have special approval of vehicle manufacturers, can be used in synchronized manual gearboxes. API GL-5 oils can be used in limited slip differentials only if they correspond to the requirements of specification MIL-L-2105D or ZF TE-ML-05. In this case the designation of class will be another, for example API GL-5+ or API GL-5 LS.


It is plain to see that the API (American Petroleum Institute) GL ratings of "4" and "5" ARE NOT the same. If I am wrong, as I am not claiming to be an expert here as I can read, use common use and use my experience with what works for me and which makes sense, then I am wrong in the eyes of some people.

I don't know why Toyota put the dual GL4/5 rating spec in the manual. You can probably use the GL5 but will wear the synchronizers at a faster rate than with the GL4. My opinion. And I never used Royal Purple before....

Junk, I have an old Chilton's as well as a newer Haynes. I will report what the Chilton's manual says.

Also, I have MT90 in my transfer case. That is coming out and will be saved for the tranny. I saw on Red Line's site that they recommend a GL5 in the t/c for 4x4 4 cly. I have some Mobil 1 75w90 GL5 laying around.

Let the discussion continue....

daved5150

iTrader: (1)

The 85w90 will be thicker than the 80w90. If you live where it's warm, you may get away w it. I have no experience with that thick stuff. But I would order the Red Line (assuming you are talking MT90). That stuff works great in out transmissions. Here's a good article to read for you.

Appleseed

Daved, I think I got all that. So Redline themselves say to use a GL-5 in the T-case? If so, cool. I'd rather just buy the three bottles of MT-90 for the trans, and cheaper dino oil for the case. Not looking for the nth degree of performance, just the cheapest stuff that will do the job correctly.

Is there a possibility of the two oils mixing? Sorry, I'm slightly 4X4 illiterate.

stanprophet

I was reading this thread and I am amazed at the info here.

GL-5 will not harm a manual transmission with brass syncros. GL-4 is harder to find since it has been back serviced with GL-5.

I have pulled apart so many transmissions with brass in them that have been serviced will GL5 it is not even funny. What causes syncros to fail is people failing to fully disengage the clutch when they shift.

As far as full synthetic oils, they are far superior than Dino Juice. The main factor involved here is the consistent sizing of the oils molecules. But when it comes to synthetics it is best to do research, many manufactures advertise synthetic oil that really is not a 100% synthetic.

I could go on and on about some of the information, but im am just too tired. Talk with some oil engineers, if you want to get some good info.

One last thing, there is a lot of debate on breaking an engine in with synthetic oil. Many manufactures do this all day long. Chevy was one of the first with the Corvette and the newer Northstar engines. Toyota and scion are right behind. Many of the new cars are coming with a 0W20 full synthetic off the powerplant assembly line. Many race care engines have been broken in with synthetic oils.

Me personally, I would not break in an engine with full synthetic. My break in periods I used high quality dino juice, mainly because of the fast oil change interval. At the 500 mile oil change I usually switch them to full synthetic. Break in periods have a lot more to do with the oil filter than they do the oil. Thermal breakdown is not a factor. Suspended particulate (Metal) mostly from the camshaft and rocker arms, and assembly lube that is in the oil. The oils job is to suspend this particulate and let the filter take care of it. The lower end of the engine should not have any metal contact, the rods and mains are effectively ridding film of oil. Well as long as the engine was built with the proper clearances, and has proper oil pressure.

If the oil filter clogs. the bypass valve will open causing this particulate to enter the tight bearing clearances on the lower half of the engine. And of course this is bad. Synthetic oil is not magic, it is highly consistent molecules of oil. What is going to wear in an engine during break in, is going to wear, no matter what type of oil is used.

One thing that is more than oil for the 22re is the filter. What causes more engine wear is not the brand, or type of oil. It is the cold starts with low oil pressure. I always use a high quality oil filter, that has a Anti Drain Back Valve. This helps get the oil where it needs to be faster.

jerry507

Stan is right on.

The confusion arises because people think the GL 4 and 5 standards still mean what they mean when they were defined in the 50's. They don't, because technology has changed considerably. Additionally, people seem to think that oil ratings define strict specifications. While they may (I haven't actually read the documents), it doesn't take much research into the subject to see that just because two oils say they're GL4 doesn't mean they both perform exactly the same.

GL4 was created because the extreme pressure (EP) additives used at the time would seriously degrade the yellow metals used. Both GL4 and GL5 used these same EP additives but GL4 specifies less of them. The additives attack the metals, so using less of them prolongs the life of the metals. Now, most oils either use different EP additives that don't attack the yellow metals or they contain other additives that stop the reaction. This is why using GL5 (with it's higher amount of EP additives) in these modern times won't damage your transmission like they used to. If the GL5 oil specifies a dual rating of GL4 and GL5 then IT WON'T DAMAGE YOUR TRANSMISSION.

But simply because it won't cause a chemical reaction that destroys your yellow metals doesn't mean it makes the transmission shift well. MT-90 IS a great oil, very well matched for Toyota transmissions. Finding another GL4 spec oil in the 75 or 80W90 range doesn't automatically mean it will have the right viscosity, amount of friction modifiers or other characteristics. This is why I say that when you recommend Redline MT-90 you're not recommending GL4, you're recommending a specific oil.

Running an oil that doesn't give smooth, good feeling shifts does far far far less damage than running an oil with EP additives that chemically degrade your syncros. It's a misunderstanding to equate the two.

For a very good primer on these differences check out this Bob Is The Oil Guy article:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...255#Post729255

PS - as one of the posters notes in the article, Redline and others don't actually check their oils against the standard as this equipment doesn't exist anymore. This is just another reason why you recommend a specific oil product and not simply a spec.

daved5150

iTrader: (1)

Appleseed, I have always used MT90 which is rated GL4 in my transfer cases. My 88 shifted pretty smooth from 2wd to 4wd when driving. My 94 now w MT90, is shifting a little hard. There's no grinding, it's just very hard to engage it into 4by. So since I changed it when I did the tranny 5800 miles ago, I am going to drain it in a clean container and save it for the tranny.

I have always used the GL4 rated MT90 because that's what Red Line told me at the time (or so I thought). I was on their site the other day and it says GL5 rated gear oil. Plus I have read here that there are alot of members who use GL5 in the t/c.

I would believe that some GL5 getting from the t/c into the MT90 would not affect anything, if it would happen. I am not going to worry about it.



Stan, thanks for chiming in. I'm no expert and it sounds like you know more than me because I have never had a manual apart/rebuild. I go by not only what I used and experienced, but what I have read as well. I am learning as I go. I am no lubricant expert either. I express what is my opinion and state it as such.

I now realize that I was wrong in stating to use GL4 because in what I was saying to use, Red Line MT90 say, as it is GL4 rated but is specifically designed as a manual transmission lubricant which is located in their Gear Oil for Manual Transmissions section. It sounds like the GL4 spec was designed for use in manual trannys because of the reduced EP package, which at that time was corrosive to non-ferrous parts as opposed to being just designated as "manual transmission oil." I am now using Pennzoil Synchromesh, which has no GL rating, but was specifically made for use in GM and Chrysler synchronized manual transmissions and transaxles and which makes for smooth, crisp shifts. But by no means am I saying that it is the optimum lube for the tranny or better than Red Line. I just wanted to try it.

About breaking in an engine, not claiming expert status. Just wanted to post for Junk the info I read and used when I broke in the motor in my F350. I believe I changed the oil/filter after no more than 25 miles then again at 500 miles I believe. I had a remote dual filter mount on that truck and were using bigger filters (#30001) with FilterMags on them. As for synthetic oil to break in an engine, I would personally stick w dino oil. Then switch out to the synthetic. That's why for winterizing two strokes, esp.ones that run synthetic oil, they recommend after you fog the motor, to dump one teaspoon of dino oil in the cylinders/turn over. It coats the cylinder walls and stays on better than synthetic oil. Too slippery....

About oil filters on the 22re, I have been using the longer Bosch/K&N/Mobil1/Purolator filters since I owned my first 4Runner. Some people say overkill, I say it's my money and that it adds extra oil to the system. I also have used a FilterMag on the filters as well. After the next oil change, I will start using the bigger Purolator #30001 after I order the bigger FilterMag. If you don't know what they are, check here and buy here. I have been using them for years on all my vehicles. Use one and cut open the first spent filter, you will be sold....


Jerry, we're at it again I see...Yea I have seen that thread before. Ok, I now stand corrected and see that the newer GL5's contain chemistry to counteract the corrosive nature of the EP package on nonferrous metals but....

From the link you stated,

"The problem with most OTS GL5 lubes in MT's is their viscoity and friction modifiers. While the OTS GL5 gear lubes are great for differentials, they do not possess the correct viscosity or friction modification for smooth cold weather shifting.

Most differential lube manufacturers list the GL5 rating because the majority of differentials require that protection rating.

Let's clarify that Manual Transmission Fluids (MT's) and Differential lubes are two entirely different lubricants and their formulations reflect that fact.

GL4 is sometimes specified for components such as TC's and MT's because many mechanical engineers lack any knowledge about gear lube formulations. GL4 refers to the level of EP protection provided by the lubricant.

Some people think that GL4 offer a less aggressive "attitude" toward non-ferrous parts such as the copper alloys of brass and bronze commonly used in sychronizer assemblies.

And let me state this for the nth time, modern GL5 lubricant formulations are safe in most components/units. When there is a mismatch, it is usually a mismatch between viscosity and friction modification."

I guess the point I was trying to make was that I like to use and recommend an oil designed for use in a synchronized manual transmission application rather than a GL5 which is generally used in a differential. And before anyone else chimes in that there are other applications for the GL5 rated oil or that they have used this oil in their tranny before w no problems, I'm just saying what I like to use. I guess I wasn't saying it correctly by using the GL ratings of the oils. And if someone wants to use a GL5 oil in their manual, more power to them...

Okay.... done...

junk4u

iTrader: (1)

Hey Dave,

Nice bit of information here and I hope most will read up on it.

Looking forward to hearing what the Chilton's manual has recorded in theirs.

junk4u

iTrader: (1)

I think the 85W90 and the 80W90 are the same weight. The only difference is the cold start when you crank you motor the weight is heavier on the 85W90 than the 80W90 so your gears wont get lubricated on the crank until it heats up. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I've known for years.

jerry507

Correct, it only affects the initial startup when the oil is cold. I had straight 90 in my transmission from before I could find a redline dealer. On the coldest MN days it took about a mile or two for the transmission to warm up sufficiently to where I didn't notice the difference.

Given the choice between both side by side, or ordering online or whatnot, I'd get the correct weight. Otherwise unless you live in Iowa, MN or equivalently northern areas, it's not a big deal.

Appleseed

This is all good info, gentlemen. As I live in the Chicago area, we do see some serious cold in Winter. I'll stick with the lightest weight called for. I'll now probably use the cheapest GL-4/GL-5 compliant weight I find. Makes sense: why else would the oil manufacturer list it as such, if it would in fact destroy brass syncros. This trans has never been open. New anything has to be better than 27 year old oil.

This is why I love forums like this.

daved5150

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for straightening me out on the "w" designation, guys.

Junk, the Chilton's I have is for Toyota trucks 1970-1988...and it has the same thing for both the transfer case(with M/T) and the manual transmission:

GL4 or GL5 75w90 weight or 80w90 weight gear oil.

junk4u

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Jerry507, it seems we get away with a lot here in South Florida with the exception on parts as not to many found in junkyards today down this way.

Appleseed, your probably right on this as stanprophet said. I'm using the cheapest right now giving it a wash and them I'll upgrade later once I know all is good with the tranny and transfer. the same with the engine i'm using conventional oil then I'll probably upgrade to synthetic full, full because i read an article stating that some synthetic blends have very little synthetic in it.

This forums are great with so much information its not even funny. The guys here have so much experience with all the trials they have been through.


Dave, you've been an awesome help with this issue of which should I use. Thanks for the information on the Chiltons, I'm still looking for mine as I like to compare info from each FSM, Haynes and Chilton then this forum, helps out a lot.

Right now I'm having a heck of a time getting my truck started after a rebuild. I'm sure it's something I'm over looking. Just putting along...

junk4u

iTrader: (1)

just a little heads up. Jiffy Lube sent me a coupon for a Jiffy Lube Signature Service Oil Change. $19.99
Oil with up to five (5) quarts of quality conventional motor oil and filter.
Clean Exterior windows
Vacuum interior floors
check Tire Pressure
check all fluid levels
Windshield washer fill-up


Not a bad deal considering alone 5qt of conventional Motor Oil would cost you around $15 and filter would cost around $3.99 washer fluid just over a $1.

That there is about $19.99 to do it yourself. I'd rather have someone do it plus go the extra mile by vacuuming and check all the fluids for $19.99. Cheap I'd say