Hey everyone. Starting a formula style build that will take a while but wanted get some input. It will have a tube chassis on top of a small amount of yoda frame. All yoda drivetrain beefed of course.
Here is what I've got ...
85 long wheelbase factory auto
22re
R151 tranny
1 23 spline case
1 21 spline case
bellfield fronts
full hydro hy steering
V6 brake upgrade
sky discs in the rear
.125 DOM driveshafts
double triangulated rear with coils w/.250 wall DOM links
5.71 gears locrite ft welded rr
shortened to 108 wheelbase
So questions-
To lose the EFI for a weber carb since I can't reuse my EFI with the manual according to a friend? Who is running what and can I run bypass the auto and keep my harness?
Should I go ahead do the heavy duty rear tcase output?
Do I need to order another 23 spline input for the rear case or will the 4.7 gear set come with a new input?
Has anyone moved their drivetrain up 3inches and back about 8 inches like I want to?
To do list-
Air shocks for the front
Front links w/upper triangulated
Marlin adapter for crawler
4.7 gears 23 spline for the beef
Heavy duty output
Centerforce clutch
Wilwood brake and clutch pedal assemblies
Yukon birfield eliminator
Chromy rear shafts or maybe hybrid rear steer axle.
39.5 IROKS on 17 inch beadlocks
Lots of tubing for the upper chassis of course
I'm open to input. Keep it constructive. And keep in mind this is going to take me a while to do all this
Here is crappy pic from a few months ago in Harlan KY in the lower rock garden witht the 35 mtrs and busted front locker, still was able to go all the way through with 3 wheel drive.

 

thats freakin sweet! welcome to the forum...

 

I'm pretty sure you can still run efi with a manual...do a search theres a fairly new thread regarding that. are you going to run Chromo front axles?

 

5.71s??? :eek:
You can ditch the EFI for propane and don't need to change all that much.
run the stock 23 spline case in the front and swap the 23 spline 4.7s into the other case for the rear. Yes, when you order 23 spline 4.7s, 23 spline is refering to the input gear.
Why are you getting a birfield eliminator?

 

I was thinking the same thing...

you say you have Bellfields yet you are switching to a birf eliminator kit? Doesnt make sense, maybe I'm missing something

If anything I would be using 30 spline Longs, but I'm still running IFS so I only know whats cool on the internet.

 

I've busted the bellfields before, even a longfield not the 30 kit but the 27. I've got a dealer deal through Yukon with a buddy so I can get the Birfield Eliminator kit cheap. It is alot stronger than any of the birfields out there except maybe longs 30 kit, but with it the cage is still the weak link.

I was wondering about the 4.7 kit with the 23 spline input, thanks for the input.
I think I'll go to the factory 4.10 gears since I have a set of complete third members laying in the garage, the 4.10 are so much stronger than any of the gears out there. With the factory auto it was very forgiving so I never worried about the pinion breaking on the 5.71 gears, they are richmond gears so they are the strongest out there for the size.

I'll do that search for the EFI thread, I still don't see why I couldn't use it. Should be able to take the wiring diagram and bypass anything that goes to the auto tranny right?
I thought about propane but off the shelf parts are not there if I need something at Tellico or grayrock or harlan. Plus it has a bad habit of freezing if it is really cold outside like near or below freezing. I have a spare computer for the EFI and you can get the sensors and relays at just about any parts house in any dinky little town, that goes for the carb setup to. See my line of thought?
Anyway keep the input coming.
Anyone want some 5.71 gears with a lockers and bellfields?

 

My donor truck is an 85 22re auto and I am switching it to propane but probably keeping the A340H, mainly for ease and price (I alreay have it) and definitely because of the new inchworm adapter that I am keeping a close eye on. As far as propane, I feel there is a lot less to go wrong with it. I don't have too much experience with it but know how it works. With the heater hoses running through the mixer I am hoping there will not be any freezing problem but time will tell. I am going with the 30 spline longs simply because I think it is the best product on the market.

 

That is the same auto I have. What adapter is it your talking about from Inch worm. I haven't seen anything about it. I like the auto but am ditching it because I can't get any lower gearing with it or add another box. Plus I got my r151 at a killer price with the two boxes. But I like to keep it if I could regear a case and but it behind the first box.
I've seen propane freeze up one to many times in the winter at tellico and even just playing around here at a friends shop, he specializes in big trucks that run propane and they come in frozen and he gets running in the shop then the following morning the truck is left outside and it starts all over again. It works better than a carb or EFI no doubt but it will freeze up sometimes in the cold, particularly if it sets in the cold.
I haven't seen anyone break the 30 kit from long but the bearing cage is still a weak link, that is what I broke in my 27 kit from them. It cost more even at retail prices than the Birfield Eliminator Kit and the BEK system allows for more steering, you can screw the steering stops in with the BEK and get alot more steering.
Do you have anymore info on the inchworm thing 44runner?
Thanks guys keep it coming.

 

AHHH damn it. I just looked at inchworms website and saw the adapter for the auto. Ahhh damn it. Now what am I supposed to do, way to go 44runner put another idea in my head. hhehheh Thanks though, the hard part will be finding someone to rebuild the toyota tranny I would think. So lets here it what does the masses think now that all things are level, auto or manual. This thing will not see any street duty or and I'm sure I could sell the r151 without any problems.
AHHH damn it again just cause the options just got better.

 

Looks kinda odd I wonder what the total cost on the internal parts would be to up grade it to the 23 spline in the auto and whats with the round bolt pattern on it. Yota gear cases don't have that style pattern. Guess I 'll have to wait till monday and talk to them.

 

I believe the A340H is already 23 spline because they say you need a 23 spline input gear for the t-case to use the new adapter. My understanding was all you really needed was the adapter but the info is still slim at this point as it was just put out. The round patter is what fits to the tranny I would think. It is really cool too because you can clock the case up to 10 degrees to get a nice flat belly on your rig. My plan is to keep the A340H and run a single 5.1 case behind it clocked 10 degrees. That should give me 122ish:1 crawl ratio with my stock 4.30s in the axles. Trying to keep the costs down as much as possible on this project since the overall cost will still be outrageous...

 

Crap my tranny says AISIN-WARNER MODEL # 30-80LE. I guess that is why that adapter looks kinda odd, my transfercase is built into the back of the tranny with a small oil pan of it's own. So back to the bomb proof get you out of the rock pile with no fluid manual. Might be best for me anyways, I'm really kinda hard on things. The auto with 35 mtrs and 5.71s was nice but it still needed more low range to really crawl good. Your plan of 5.0 gears will be great but I'd still dual case it cause if you need wheel spin the stock gears in the diffs and a stock low range might work but the 5.0 and stock gears might be a little to slow.
Anyways 44runner how far are you from Shuppes in Travelers Rest, we should go down there and beat the yotas on his custom rock garden when we're done.
If anyone has a good price on some air shocks let me know by the way, I need to get started looking for some. Guess I should get the 4.7 gears next and bolt the cases and tranny together and get ready to roll the body off.

 

That's an A340H you have, I promise. That was the only auto tranny that came in that truck. It is normal for them to have that stamped in them, it is still an A340H.

Wheel spin? that's what second gear is for...

Not sure where travelers rest is, but I am right next to charleston. I'm sure my maiden voyage will be tellico, but I would always be game for something closer...

 

the birfield eliminator kit has been PROVEN to be weaker than even a STOCK cyro treated toyota birfield.

do some more research, especially on the Pirate BB, you will find much more valuable information there concerning solid axle rigs, especially early model toyotas.

Go with Longfields 30 spline birfields and dont look back. 30 spline longs are just as strong as a D60.

39.6 Iroks will NOT hold up to a birfield eliminator kit.

here are some specs:

Stock Toyota Birfield, 27 spline ................ 3,700 ft-lbs
Toyota Birf Eliminator kit ...................... 4,020 ft-lbs
Stock Toyota inner axle, 27 spline .............. 4,360 ft-lbs
Pigs 4340 Toyota inner axle, 27 spline .......... 4,700 ft-lbs
Longfield stock treated Toyota birf, 27 spline .. 4,800 ft-lbs
Superior 4340 Toyota inner axle, 27 spline ...... 5,200 ft-lbs
Longfield 4340 Toyota inner axle, 27 spline ..... 6,820 ft-lbs
Yukon 4340 Dana 44 inner axle, 30 spline ........ 7,900 ft-lbs
Longfield 4340 Toyota inner axle, 30 spline ..... 8,200 ft-lbs
Longfield 4340 birfield stub failure ............ 8,200 ft-lbs
Stock Dana 60 inner axle, 35 spline (used) ...... 8,300 ft-lbs
Stock Dana 60 inner axle, 35 spline (new) ....... 8,320 ft-lbs

 

well, those numbers sound kinda inflated. I think that the low BEK number must be with a stock mat. They make the shafts out of the same 4340 chromy mat that the Dana 44 shafts are made of. And they also say stub failure not bir failure on the high number for the 30 long kit. I wonder where the cage fails. That is what I've broke, I've never broke a yota stub or a yota hub.
I'm a machinist/tool die maker and a certified welder (how I pay the bills) so I know good material and also how vendors twist test numbers to make their product test out better. Realistic numbers would be for shock load not a constant increasing load, but as far as I know no manufacturer test that way.
If I hadn't broke the cages out of the high dollar birs I would go for the 30 spline kit. I run the yukon D44 inner/outer chromy shafts in my jeep with a 4.0 HO nv4500 d300 and 38 TSLs and haven't broke anything and it gets beat quite well. Yukon also warrenties the shafts for life if you run their super joints in them, can't beat that in my opinion.
44Runner travelers rest is just north of Greenville SC, Shupee's rock garden is next to his shop, it's about a 45 min drive south from me and I'd guess about a 2.5 hrs closer than Tellico for you, Murphy is about a 2 hr drive for me and Charleston is about 3.5 to 4 hrs last time I went.
I think I'll go call inchworm about the adapter, just out of curisoty.
westy 44 runner thanks for the info I'll call Randys tomorrow and find out about the torsional limit on the BEK and post it here but it should be at least the same as a D44, maybe more due to the spline angle being steeper on the yota and generating more strengh due to more contact etc.
I don't put much stock in Pirate 4x4 forum. My experience is to many ppl wanting to think they are hard core wheelers and all knowing and looking to cuss/rant than offer usable info. I've also seen way to many wrong part #s posted and wrong measurements and even materials.
Thanks again guys.

 

Birfield eliminator kit inner failure @ 8000+psi
I'm considering the longfield 30 kit cause is really different than the 27 kit, the 30 uses 300m in the cage and is fully treated. That would seem to me to really fix any reasonable chance of failure. Plus it uses stock yota spindles and I can use my bellfields as spares and carry only one spindle.
I'm ordering a marlin crawler next, marlins high steer arms, marlins HD clutch kit and marlins treated output next week. AllPro for the 4.7 kit with the 23 spline. Then longs 30 kit. Then some fox air shocks and finally lots of tubing. Tires and bead locks will be last. Plan of action at least. Time to start turning some overtime to pay this little adventure or as the wife calls it the passion.
Anyone going the spartenburg sc event this weekend?

 

 

I think you will find pirate has alot of valuable information concerning toyota birfields and inners, etc. Search around and you will find exactly what you are looking for, there has been ALOT of good debate on this subject.

There's definitely alot of guys that think they know it all on there..but theres also ALOT of people that do know what they are talkin about and are very helpful. Birfield eliminators are a complete waste of money IMO, especially since they cost MORE than a complete set of 27spline longs, and roughly the same as the 30s and they are not nearly as strong.

Since the 30 spline birfields have come out, matched with the chromo inners, the weak point now becomes the ring and pinion along with the with hubs, which is why some guys are running ARP hub studs and doing the Hendrix 6th dowl pin upgrade and cryo treating the R/P.
There will always be a weak point, but its a heck of alot easier to replace a broken hub then an inner or birfield.

From the testings results, as far as I know the 30 spl birfields did not break, the inners always failed first. And Longfield has always tested other manufacturers axles against his in the same manner as his were tested, so its a very fair way to measure strength i believe. however, i agree, shock load would be a nice measure to see as well and give some realistic data.

which high dollar birfield cages did you break? many of the aftermarket birfield manufacturers use low end material to begin with, Marlin, NewField and Longfields chromo birfields are the only ones to use.

 

Yea I just spoke with them and I'm sending them a set of stock low mile 4.10 gears to treat for me, after talking to them about their 30 kit they are testing in real world standards. The chromy 27 kit would be great if the cage was made of 300M just like the 30 kit. The 27spl longs I've broke, broke in the cage and did not hurt the 5.71 gears or the hubs, but with the 30 kit it will be all over for either/both of those parts. I figure the 4.10 gears are going to be the strongest gears out there and treating them will be cheap insurance. I'm going to get some drive flanges for the hubs after I bust the ones I've got cause I've got a complete set of spares right now.
I joined pirate yesterday to get some of the benifits of the red star membership. The toyota forum is better than the buggy and jeep forums, those two are full of know it alls and screamers.

Westy44runner thanks for all the info. Also got a link or any more info on the 6th dowel from hendrix? Still learning about all the tricks. I'll try to post a pic of the bad ass yota buggy with 39 iroks and stock birs that schooled everything in Harlan. I think the owner's name is Cassidy (from giveithell.com) and he is from the Boone NC area.

I start ordering parts next week and will try to post some pics of the parts I've got this weekend.
Thanks again for all the help so far.

 

I ordered the 23spline input shaft today and began taking measurements to narrow the full width chevy D44 front to make a rear steer axle out of it. It should be fairly straight forward. Got some pics just need to get the computer here at the house to pull them off the camera.