Sorry but I just have to get this out of my system. Don't buy a car from R. D. Miller Auto sales in St. Cloud, MN. At least not if you care about getting your car fixed properly under their warranty. Here's the story:

A year and a half ago my then-girlfriend (now my wife) bought a 2001 Pontiac Grand Prix with the 3100 V6 w/63,000 miles. It had a mild ticking in the engine, which they said was normal for those engines. I had a feeling it would later be an issue, but couldn't do anything about it because my wife bought it without me knowing. She said it came with a 100,000 mile warranty so if the engine blew it would be covered. I asked her if the lower intake manifold gasket was included. Now these things are notorious for leaking like the 3VZE is for blowing headgaskets. No, it's not covered by their warranty, only engine parts that touch oil (excluding oil leaks).

The 1st problem arose in the form of the thermostat gasket leaking only 2 weeks after buying the car. She took it back, and they agreed to fix it (reluctantly) under the 30 day warranty. The leak was fixed, but soon after that the Check Engine light would come on. What now?

She had the oil changed and the Check Engine light code read - low EGR flow. Her mechanic doing the work (NOT the dealer) took off the EGR valve and cleaned it/reinstalled it and erased the code. He said if the code comes back then replace the EGR valve.

So it's a few weeks later and the light/code comes back, so we buy a new EGR valve for $90 and I install it. Start the car and the light goes out!
Goose the engine and the light comes back on. So I start looking around at everything under the hood and notice a bolt missing! It holds a clip around the fuel lines to a bracket on the transaxle, and the lines are over the thermostat housing that the dealer fixed! Then I happened to bump the rubber intake hose, and it moved! It was loose and twisted on the throttle body with ease! When the engine would rock under drive, it would suck in unmetered air and cause a lean condition, which set off the EGR code. As soon as I tightened everything down and erased the code, it never came back. It was all caused by the dealership when they fixed the coolant leak.

Also within the first month of having the car the wipers stopped working.
She took it back and the dealer just popped a socket on an arm over a ball on the motor. Another month or so later it happened again, so I took it apart to fix it. The socket had popped off again, so I really looked at it and saw it was missing a clip that tightens the socket onto the ball. I wound a piece of wire around it until I could buy a clip. It didn't hold, and I couldn't buy just the clip, so we found a small hose clamp that would fit. That fixed it for good.

Now a year and a half later, the engine ticking got worse to where people half a block away could hear it! We always changed the oil and even added oil treatment, but it didn't help. Everyone said it was a rod knock and that we should take it in under warranty, so we did. The dealership mechanic came out and listened to it and said it sounded like a lifter. We left it there so they could fix it under warranty. It was also leaking coolant from the dreaded LIM (lower intake manifold) which wasn't covered, but since the lifters are underneath they had to replace it anyway! It should only take a week to fix they said, so I let my wife drive my Supra. This was 5 WEEKS ago!
We had to wait a week for their warranty company to approve the repair. Then another week or two for the parts to come in and for them to fix it. They never called us to update us, we always had to call them.
So 3 weeks in they finally say "Oh, well it wasn't the lifters and we don't know what it is, so we're gonna put in a new motor." Great, maybe they'll put in a new or remanufactured short block! We were happy. My wife finally requested a loaner car and got one, except it was out of gas. Sheesh!

So another 2 weeks go by, and they finally call saying the car is done and when can we get it cause they need their loaner back as soon as possible. They had her car for 5 WEEKS, so we weren't going to go out of our way for them. They called again and my wife asked about the new motor (how to break it in, etc.) and they said "We put in a USED motor." I was so mad when I heard that! I decided to research the engine and have some questions for them. That was last night.

This morning we went to pick up the car, and the salesman Shawn Baker was rude. I asked what they did to it, got the expected reply, and said we were told they were putting in a new motor. He just said that's what the warranty company wanted to do, that they handle everything and that we would have to talk to them. So I asked what year engine did they put in, how many miles were on it, and where did it come from? Same answer, talk to the warranty company. I said how is this right, because now we don't even know what we got? And how do they know that they got the right motor in the first place, when they couldn't even fix windshield wipers the right way? He walked away muttering something about his mechanic having 20 years experience, blah blah blah. Yeah, the same mechanic that couldn't even tell what a rod knock or piston pin knock sounds like? Their level of incompetence just makes me sick. But wait, it gets worse...

We get out to the car by ourselves, and I want to look at the engine but my wife just wants to leave. On the way home, the Check Engine light comes on. I think maybe it just has to relearn everything. We get home, pop the hood, and I find a clean engine. THEN I see a green wire coming from under the brake booster and going to the coil pack. It's soldered into another green wire going to the plug for the pack, and there's a black wire from the pack plug that's chopped off and there's nothing on it! The soldered joint isn't even taped up! There was NO reason for ANY of that! Now I don't even know where the old coil pack is, or the new EGR valve, or even the old engine that we might need parts from! And it's Friday and no one answers their phones and we don't even know who did the actual mechanic work! My wife and I feel like we've been raped. To add insult to injury, they even made us pay for the oil change and new antifreeze which I was going to flush out and replace with green antifreeze anyway!

So now we're left with a cobbled-together ignition harness, a quiet, used engine of unknown origin, mileage, or vintage that could blow it's LIM unexpectedly, a Check Engine light, and no old engine to source the newer or correct parts from, in case it's a '99 or older engine. My wife worked THREE part-time jobs while attending college full time to get that car because she wanted something newer, reliable, and predictable. Now we probably couldn't even get a fair trade in value for it because of the engine. Heck, I could've fixed or replaced that engine myself, and I would've swapped in a 3400 if it needed a whole engine! It could've easily been fixed right with a reman short block and a competent mechanic. I hate stupid people, and people who mislead and lie! It's like no one does what they say they're going to do anymore! So much could be changed if people would just be up front and honest, and make an effort to do the right thing.

Did I mention the car only had 80,000 miles on it, and that they put 42 miles on it while they had it? They didn't even have the car at their lot the whole time! They even got caught when we said we went by and the car wasn't there one weekend. I guess they farm out some of the bigger jobs like ours, but they wouldn't even tell us who was doing the work. The whole thing just sucks! Well, I'd better go look at the engine and see if the head casting numbers tell me anything. Thanks for listening to my .

 

Dude that really sucks, this is one reason why I would never biuy a vehicle off of a used car lot and why I would never buy a GM product. Can you call the warrenty company yourself and let them know what is going on?

 

I think that really sucks. You should look into talking to an attorney for a free consultation to see what kind of rights you have and see if there's a possibility of taking them to small claims court. I hate to see dealerships nail people. There is no reason whatsoever that you should have to accept shoddy repairs especially under warranty. Especially if they can't tell you anything about this "new" engine. Like all crooks out there, these bastards should be punished. GOOD LUCK!

 

Sounds like you had an extended warranty company covering the warranty to 100K. I know you are frustrated, but let me tell you, from the technicians perspective, we don't like working for them either. Extended warranty companies don't pay near enough time for diagnosis or repair and beyond that they always have you tear components apart to see if it would be cheaper to repair the component, or replace it. These warranty companies are trying their best not to make any payouts. They fight the shop tooth and nail when it comes to approving any diagnostics and repair. They also use used parts, hence your used motor. As a tech I refuse to use used parts as a rule and I usually tell the svc writer to call you and at the very least give you the opportunity to complain to the warranty company before any work is done. If enough pressure is placed upon the warranty company, they will usually go with a short block, or agree to send the motor off to a machine shop.

"It" rolls down hill, and lower level techs usually end up with extended warranty work. So now you are in a very bad position. The svc. writer doesn't want to deal with the warranty company, and neither does the tech, not to mention you probably got a tech with a lower experience level to complete the job. This would explain both the ridiculously long repair time, as well as the poor original diagnosis. A double rap rod knock is easily diagnosed with a cold engine doing a fuel injector test to isolate which cylinder is making the noise. The 3.1 is very common to eat pistons IF oil changes are not done on a regular basis. Since you bought the car used, I'd suspect a previous poor maintainence record.

As far as the test drive, well I wouldn't be concerned about 50 or so miles. Particularly on a "new" engine. You have to test the rig to make sure it is performing well before returning it to the customer. An experience svc. writer should have told you of this before hand however, so you wouldn't be surprised. And you should have gotten your fuel replaced and a car wash... at least you would have at my dealership.

We've dropped a lot of extended warranty companies because they are such a pain to deal with. An extended warranty is basically a sales tool, and rarely pays off in the end. You've got to read the fine print with these things. You're usually better off to try and get the dealership itself to extend your warranty through the dealer for 60 or 90 days, then you are to purchase a 1 year extended warranty from a 3rd party. That said, good luck and I hope you get things squared away to your satisfaction.

 

Thanks for educating me about the way extended warranty companies work, Wrenchmonster. It really helps to get a technician's point of view. All that stuff is good to know for future reference.

This dealership is just a small used car place on a tiny corner lot, with the sales office and 2 bay garage all in one building. They mostly sell newer cars which the owner finds on other lots or at auctions. Our car used to belong to a local lady, so at least it wasn't a rental (hopefully). My girlfriend wanted to surprise me, so she bought the car during the week and didn't tell me until I saw it. We had a long-distance relationship (80 miles) so I only saw her on weekends. We had been looking at cars at other dealerships together, but they were a little more than she wanted to spend. She was set on another Grand Prix, or maybe a Grand Am. We were looking at the bigger dealerships and even got on a "wish list" at the biggest local used car dealer. Boy, I'll bet she wishes she would've waited a little longer now, because right after she bought it the dealership called and said they just got a Grand Prix in. She didn't even want to know anything about it because she already signed the papers.

When she got her car and had the first oil change done on it, her mechanic (also the family neighbor) was going to rotate the tires, but they had already been rotated. The car was starting to make a rum-rum noise down the road, and I thought that it was the rear tires caused by rear wheel bearings going bad. Well, a year later we rotated the tires again and the fronts were worse than the rears, but worn on the inside edges. We found out that both front wheel bearings were bad. They must've been going bad when she bought the car! This was also about the time I replaced the EGR valve. A new pair of wheel bearing assemblies cost $315.00, so this car was getting expensive. Anyway, that was just one more thing R. D. Miller overlooked.
Moral of the story: get a good mechanic's evaluation of a car BEFORE you buy it!

To update, I looked at the engine and determined it has to at least be a 2001 because there is no hole in the throttlebody plate. An Autozone co-worker reminded me about the engine swap law that says you can't put an older engine into a newer body because of the emissions laws. That made me feel a little better. On saturday, we received a call from the warranty company and we were able to ask a few ?'s. He assured us the engine is 2001 or newer, and they always try to match the year, make, and get a lower mileage engine than the old one. He would try to find us the specific information about it. Then we told him about the almost-bare soldered wires, and he didn't like the sound of that, either. My wife left a message on his phone today, so we'll see what that gets us. We might go back to the dealership tomorrow and show them the wiring that we don't like. Maybe they'll be in a better mood, since we were there early friday morning last time. I'd just like the wiring returned to stock, the way it should be. It does have a remote starter on it which might have given them problems, but it worked fine with the old factory wiring. It was a Chevy dealership item, not a cheap Wal-Mart do-it-yourself kit, and Gilleland Chevrolet installed it. We'll probably take the car there first and see what they can make of it. At least it'll give them something to laugh at.

I still have to go over some stuff on the car, like double-check and top up all of the fluids, fix the plastic splash guard under the belts so it doesn't rub the rt tire (wasn't like that before), and check out the rear brakes (one side makes a squeel and smells of burned rubber now & then). Oh yeah, and this engine has a faint ticking to it too, kinda like the other one started. I REALLY hope it's just a lifter or something small. I now have a mechanic stethoscope to play with, so I'm not getting too worried (yet!). She bought the car w/60,000 miles on it, and the extended warranty covers it for 100,000 AFTER THAT, so we should be good for a while. Who knows, though? It's been a learning experience, that's for sure! :pat:

Thanks to everyone for your support, advice, and patience for reading my long posts. You should get an award just for that!

 

Good story to cement the important concept of STAYING THE HELL AWAY FROM DEALERSHIPS. And GM vehicles, but that goes without saying.

Brian

 

I asked my father about your issues.. and he told me that the best way to do this is to try and keep contacting them about your problem with the used engine and document those contacts.. then if that doesnt work use those documentation for legal action.. you got screwed and you dont need to take it.

 

I feel bad for your situation and we've all been taken for a ride at the dealer at least once or twice. This is why I still do all my own work on all my vehicles (the issue is not money, but time spent dealing with vehicles when they are not fixed properly or to my liking.....than you need to spend more time going back and fighting with them to fix it correctly and it almost never gets resolved the way you'd hope). The good side is that at least it sounds like you are covered under warranty for a very long time so your biggest losses will be time waiting for the car to be returned when it does break. Hope you get this resolved.

 

Except for my 97 runner and Mrs. Fuster's car, I buy trucks that I know are junky..........................so I'm not surprised when they fall apart.

 

I got a chance to look over the car a little better, and found out only one wire for the ignition had been tapped into. The little black wire wasn't a chopped wire at all, but a little plastic pin that stuck out. There was a short piece of electrical tape on the harness that looked fresh, so I removed it. The factory tape was still on the wiring, and nothing else had been tampered with. I got to thinking about the green spliced wire, and concluded it is for the remote start. It was hidden in the wiring harness before, and when they removed the engine the harness was in the way. The green wire must've pulled out of the harness, so they clipped it so they could move the wiring. They wound the wire around a cable to keep it out of the way, and when they installed the engine they were in a hurry and just quickly soldered it together again. Nothing I can't fix, they just didn't want to reroute the wire inside the plastic wire loom where it was before because it would take too long. I'm all about the little details, so I'll do it right. I also noticed the tranny dipstick tube is loose. I just have to tighten a bolt down behind the engine exhaust to fix that. Always the little things...

The warranty company got the invoice for the engine, so they gave us the info on it. It was from another 2001 Pontiac Grand Prix with just over 60,000 miles on it. Good, back where we started! Then my wife told him that this engine is ALSO ticking, especially when it first starts. Good, right back where we started... Actually, it's not as bad as the last one was at 80k, but sounds like it did when she first got it. It does sound like it could just be a valve tick, as the noise is clearer when the oil cap is off (front head with engine running). Maybe just running a thicker oil in it will help, as GM loves 5w-30 in their stuff which is too thin in my opinion, especially in summer. The intake looks black and carboned up, so maybe it's a carbon knock. I'm thinking of using SeaFoam on it and see if that cures it. I checked all the fluids, topped up the antifreeze, and found the plastic guard that the tire is rubbing must've been doing that for some time, 'cuz it's got holes in it! Probably never heard it rubbing over the engine knock before.

Yeah, it's a GM, but that's okay because it isn't too hard to work on. I'm used to it now . I like it better than the newest Grand Prix bodystyle. If you about it, everything has one or two design flaws, even Toyotas. 3VZE headgaskets, rwd Corolla starters, the Celica Supra rear ifs (rear camber adjustment problems), - - with this Grand Prix it's wheel bearings and lower intake manifold gaskets. At least it's a mid-size car w/airbags to keep my wife safe, and it doesn't get bad mpg either, so I can live with it.

I like working on my own stuff too because I've seen shops rip people off in the past. That's why I went to votech for mechanics. It's still hard to find an honest shop to work for though, so I stay away from that industry. I actually got into an argument with the salesman Shawn about that I could've fixed it myself, and he asked me if I was a "certified" mechanic (I assume ASE Certified). I'm not, but if his is I still can at least fix windshield wipers and thermostat gaskets correctly! I've swapped at least four engines already, and they all ran good afterwards. Certification is just a piece of paper, so it doesn't mean anything to me. I just can't believe how rude everyone at that place became towards us during the whole thing. Makes me hesitant to ever deal with them again, even if it IS a warranty issue! At least I've always had pleasant experiences at Toyota dealers. I just hope my 50N recall goes smoothly when I bring it in.

Writing all of this has helped me greatly in dissapating my stress. I was about to go ballistic before, but I'm mostly settled down now. I hope someone learns from reading about this and uses it when car shopping. Always do your research; the internet is an AMAZING tool. Thanks again!

 

Thats a rough story..You said you bought it from a small mom and pop used car dealer? Those are the worst kind of stealerships!

 

Well, I fixed the loose wire and rerouted it with the factory harness. You can't even notice it anymore. I tightened the bolt for the trans dipstick too. I changed the cheap oil filter to an AC Delco one, drained out some oil and replaced it with a quart of Lucas oil stabilizer. I also changed the air filter.

We took the car to a different garage in town to get checked out. The check engine light was still on, and it still knocks. The mechanic cleared the code (which reset again) and said the knock is probably piston slap, which is common in GM vehicles. I researched it and he's right. Just go to www.pistonslap.com to see what I mean. He didn't want to deal with the extended warranty company either, but at least we got a professional opinion.

We figured the EGR valve was bad, and we called the warranty company to complain. He knows the engine still ticks, but we at least wanted the check engine light fixed. The warranty agent actually agreed to pay for a new EGR valve OUT OF HIS OWN POCKET! That was nice. My wife got one from work, I put it in, and no more check engine light. What was wrong with the old one? THE IDIOTS WHO PUT THE ENGINE IN BROKE THE ELECTRICAL CONNECTOR on the valve!!! Stupid incompetent mechanics!
It was only getting an intermittent connection causing the light. You'd think they would check their own work! They didn't even test drive the car after changing the engine! When they changed the lifters, we saw the mileage after they were done (original engine) and they put 37 miles on it. As far as I know, you don't have to test drive a car just for lifters, just let it idle for a long time, and occasionally goose it. Someone drove it home and back one night. But the mileage was the same when we picked it up after the engine was switched, proving that they didn't test drive it. The antifreeze was low (for which they charged us $12 a GALLON!) and the overflow tank was missing the mounting nuts and wasn't even rinsed out! VERY shabby work. If you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself.

So, my wife and I cleaned her whole car up, put some new front tires on it, and she's enjoying her car again, knocking engine and all. If it gets bad again (which I'm sure it will) we'll have to get the engine changed again. It'll probably be within another year or 10,000 miles. I'm hoping that we'll have enough $ after the next engine change to trade or sell the car and get her another Grand Prix (a GT this time) 4 door with a 3.8 V6. I've read the 3.8 is about the only decent engine that GM makes, that doesn't have piston slap. And it would be great if we could have someone ELSE change the engine next time. This is Radyota signing off.

 

Take my advise, tell her to sell the car.

 

Hmmmm, my wifey's 3.1 GM is making ticking noises.......34K miles

 

G.M.C. Garbage Made Corporate, never owned a GM vehicle, but I've heard nothing but horror stories. Aside from that it is very rare that you hear anything good about a dealership(Toyota of Dallas being one of my exceptions!). So, I don't know, it seems what I would kind of expect based on the product and service(not to be mean or anything, it is a horror story, but I'm not surprised)

 

getting rid of one GM piece of crap to buy another? Cut your losess and get a toyota, not as fast but will last longer than 5 years.

 

Well, it's been 1 1/2 months and 2,000 miles later, and the new engine is knocking almost as badly as the old one did! It didn't even make it to it's next oil change! We took the car around to other dealers to see if we could trade it in for a GT, and they said they'd give $5,500 for it - - until they heard it run! "Oh no, I can't put that on MY lot, I'd have to take it to the auction." We'd get MAYBE $4,000 for it. What a crock! We took it back to the stealer, told them that nobody would even take it as a trade-in, and left it for them to listen to. It was during the heat wave, and they said it sounded fine. We insisted that it's not fine, and the owner said he'd keep it and drive it over the weekend so he could hear it. Monday morning my wife called the owner, and he hadn't even driven it!! He made some excuse that his friend was in the hospital. She went and got the car back because we needed it, and still nothing has been done. Grrrr...
I wish we could've gotten the last 2 visits documented so we'd have proof that they won't fix it. I think there's a Lemon Law that says if you bring the car in for the same problem 3 times within a certain period of time and they don't fix it, they have to buy the car back. Maybe once I get a job we can consult a lawyer about it. We may be able to have someone else look at it (wife's family's neighbor) who does warranty work and have him verify that the engine knocks and get the warranty company to fix it RIGHT this time with a remanufactured shortblock. Then we'll probably keep the car for a while. Right now it's pretty rediculous that every 3,000 miles we need the ENGINE changed instead of the oil! LOL
Yes, she DOES love the Toyota cars, but they're so good that even the used ones around here hold their value pretty high. She would love a Solara (just sat in one at the MN state fair) or even a Camry, so I'm thinking down the road we will probably be getting her a Toyota. It's just a really, really long road right now.
Oh yeah, our apartment caretaker also bought a newer Grand Prix from this same dealer for his daughter, and had a problem with it (water in the fuel filter). They couldn't even diagnose that one right, either! So now he's kinda regretting buying a car from them as well. He should've learned from our experience! So that just proves that ours isn't an isolated case! Do NOT buy anything from R.D. Miller!!

 

Lemon law doesn't apply to used cars.

 

(The lemon law does apply to certified used vehicles, which this one is.)

My wife just stopped in for lunch and replied^^^^.

 

You 100% sure. It does apply in CA. It doesn't apply in TX, at least not through lemon laws.
However:
Certified vehicles protections ARE provided under other consumer protection laws... Especially since the dealer is certifing the car. Was there a "warranty" offered with the vehicle certification?