N2Frodn

I know this has been brought up before and sadly it desintegrated into a flame war without much in the way of helpful suggestions, hopefully history will not repeat itself..

Truck:
86 Toyota 4x4. The IFS has 256,000 on it, bushings and ball joints are toast CV boots are ripped and the rear lower control arm mounts are spread out. It is pretty much stock with the exception of some bolt ons (rancho torsion bars, idler arm truss, Bilsteins and some low profile bump stops).

What I want to build:
An expedition rig. Something that I can drive deep into Mexico, out into the desert or up to the mountains. It will see everything from open desert, to snow, rocks and a lot of highway miles in between. It needs to handle well, maintain highway speeds easily and be fairly comfortable. Most of all, it needs to be reliable. Truck will have ARB or E Locker rear end and either an LSD or ARB in front. Tires will be in the 33 to 35in range.

Here are the pros and cons of each system as I see it...

Stock IFS:
Pros: Rides and handles well, repair parts are easy to aquire.
Cons: Limited travel, easy to break, Has been the limiting factor in my wheeling before. Limited selection of lockers and LSDs for front diff. Front diff is in the way of planned 2.7 taco motor swap

LT IFS:
Pros: Good wheel travel, ability to soak up desert at high speed. Less breakage prone then factory IFS... Pretty good road manners if done correctly.

Cons: Exotic parts, expensive, requires spacers or rear axle swap to match track width of front end. Going to be difficult to wedge a 2.7 taco motor in with the IFS diff sitting where the oil pan needs to live. Fiberglass fenders and bedsides needed (frankly, I don't like any of the glass that is available for my bodystyle truck)....

SAS:
Pros: Great wheel travel, no fiberglass needed, lots of LSD-locker options, fairly simple system (compared to LT IFS), room for engine swap. From what I have read, the most bulletproof of my 3 options.

Cons: Birfields, death wobble, spacers needed in front to match track width of rear axle (frankly, I am scared of spacers). Road manners are a big ? to me. I drove a friends stock 85 4x4 for quite a while and I was less then impressed with it's on road performance (his truck was pretty beat tho)

Given the intended usage of my rig, what direction would you head in?? Any advice, real world experience or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Rich

waskillywabbit

iTrader: (-1)

How about the engine? Does it have 256K on it as well? I'd start w/ making sure you have a reliable engine. All the other is pointless if it won't run.

Again, start w/ the engine/mechanical and get that up to par or IMO, above par in all categories. If you are driving out to BFE, you should look at Baja Tacos rig for accessory upgrades such as food storage, sleeping, batteries, etc. No need to get into that again.

A suspension w/ 256K on it is probably worn out anyway so why not upgrade?

Not a fan of LT kits as it IS all exotic stuff that you can't just get anywhere...like in BFE Mexico. Forget fiberglass fenders, just cut your own.

Birfields to longfields, I have no death wobble and spacers can be red loctited on or you can use your IFS hub and not use spacers. My truck drives fine w/ 37s on the highway at 80+ mph. A solid axle is made for off-road capability, not highway soccer mom smoothness.

For what all you are going to spend, buy a newer model Pre-runner Taco and you'll have much more of what you want already. Another base format would serve you better IMO.

My pennies...

tc

I agree with everything said above, but vote for long-travel IFS. IMHO, the "exotic" parts are not really the ones likely to break. The parts that are likely to break may be "exotic" compared to Toyota stock, but, for instance, the tie-rod-ends are usually stock Ford or Chevy. I don't know much about service on a SAS, but replacing CV joints is not too bad (especially if you replace the studs with bolts).

But my biggest thing is the extra ground clearance, particularly down the centerline of the truck. Nothing prevents damage like having it out of the way!

I would talk to Bajataco and/or go to his webpage. He has A LOT of experience using the truck the way you're talking about.

deathrunner

Well, that is gonna be an issue if you stick with IFS. If you rebuild stock or go long travel, either way this is gonna make alignment a nightmare. An Lt setup only works as well as the truck it is being put on. I would bypass, IFS at this point. They can be bent back in, but I think it would be difficult to get it back to spec. The camber adjustment bolts don't have much room for adjustment.

If you're looking for good road manners and decided to go to LT, get ride of those torsions and switch to coilovers. Much smoother ride, easier to flex, and you get rid of that troublesome T-bar mounting. Wouldn't be fun to have the torsion key spread and rip off the bolt when you're far away.

deathrunner

Of all the things to break in an lt setup, I would expect something in the driveline, just like stock. And teh axles are just stock t-100, so spare are no more expensive to carry than stock and I doubt they would be impossible to find in a pinch. Plus if it does break, it's easy to pull it ina limp back in 2wd, or 3wd if you lock it.

If you swap to heim joints instead of normal tie-rod ends, I seriously doubt you'd break those.

Lower BJ might be an issue, but those are stock anyway, so easy to replace/carry spares.

I can't really forsee any other breakage with that system.

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

You don't *have* to run wheel spacers up front. Or you can do the IFS hub conversion where the spacers go behind the hub instead of outside it. Or you can get a custom front axle (AllPro, Diamond, or Sky) that is wider to begin with. Death wobble is just a sign of not having the front steering geometry set right.

N2Frodn

The engine was rebuilt (poorly) at 200,000. I have a complete 94 22re with harness and ecu sitting on a stand. What I would like to do is swap in a 3rzfe (2.7 tacoma motor). I have read quite a bit on the Marlin Crawler board about several of them being swapped into 1st and 2nd gen trucks. So far, noone has been able to make it fit with IFS, so that steers me towards a SAS.

I debated selling this truck and starting with a newer rig. The problem is I am kind of attached to my truck. I have had it since 1992 and it was a daily driver for many of those years. I know it inside and out and while I like Tacomas, heck, I own one, I don't want to build one up as a trail truck. I see a lot of people my dads age who kick themselves for selling their car that they had in high school. I still have mine and I plan on keeping it......

I might have overstated the ride comfort issue. I could care less if it drives soccer mom smoooth. It just needs to be able to ride along at freeway speed (and then some) without feeling like it is going to swap ends on me at every moment or kicking the crap out of me. The ability to go around corners without scraping the doorhandles on the ground is also something I desire as well.

Thanks for the info so far guys, keep it comin.

6lug

Im kinda in the same boat here as you....Im totally freakin in love with expedition travel and the rigs that do it, and thats what Im trying to make mine do. After this summer, my 93 runner will be sporting a solid front axle with a mild (3-4") lift for better stability. The pro's of a SFA to me far outweigh the pro's of a LT IFS kit. Stronger, simpler, easier to maintain (especially only running 33"s and not huge tires like some of these guys run on theirs), and if your in another country, you have a hell of a lot better chance of finding a part if you needed to for it than a LT kit, plus IMO, and no offense to anyone here, but I think the LT IFS kits are ugly. And yes, they have gobs of travel, but when they are flexed the diff gets closer to the ground, not further away like a solid axle. My dough on the subject......Alex.

deathrunner

This is fully flexed in the front and the diff is pretty far from the ground. I don't see it as a problem.

Napoleon047

maybe not, but i have yet to see any heim, even the high dollar ones last longer than 5-10k miles. they dont break, they just wear and get slop in them making it impossible to align and causing wobbles in the steering.

AxleIke

For what you are doing, i was going to say go with an LT kit, just becasue it would perform well for what you were doing, and would give you a stronger front end.

After reading that your mounts are spread out, i'd say you'll have to sas, or start with a new frame. That is very bad. Alignment will no longer happen, and that'll cost you comfort and tire wear will be a huge factor.


As for the engine, if you are going to get another engine other than the 22re, get the 3.4. Don't screw around with an underpowerd 4 cyl, when you can get a 3.4 and it will fit fine wheter IFS or no.

As for the front diff getting lower to the ground or not, i don't know, and i don't think it matters. You can eaisily install a rear xmember on the ifs and put on a skid plate and then you can run it into rocks all day long.

AxleIke

Deathrunner, is the dude in your passenger seat wearing a deathmask? Cuz if so, that is awsome, and fitting for your screen name.

6lug

Im not saying that it doesnt have any ground clearance, but the pumpkin on a SA will move up with articulation rather than down as with IFS. Extra clearance helps anywhere you can get it. Not dissing the IFS, just saying you get a bit more with a Solid axle. However, I will say that you get more central GC with IFS without a load.

N2Frodn

My control arm mounts are bent, but the truck will still take an allignment. I bought a truss for that area years ago but it was already bent.

Doing a 3.4 swap has been kicked around. I have a friend with a 93 4x4 with a 3.4 and TRD SC. He was one of the first people to do this swap, long before any parts were available. He seems to think that the engine bay is too tight, the engine is too heavy and there are too many issues to recomend it. His truck is LT IFS and he has broken quite a few parts on it. Then again, he drives his truck like it's a rental.

The 2.7 is cheaper to buy, easier to source with a manual trans (most 3.4s are autos, making the swap harder) more fuel efficient and I am used to working on them. The swap is a bolt in with the exception of having to fab engine mounts. No body lift or hoodscoop needed either ( I don't like body lifts). I can vouch for their toughness and reliability, my tacoma has almost 160,000 on it and runs perfect with nothing other then routine maintence.

Check out the Marlin Crawler board for details on the 2.7 swap...

BTW Deathrunner, nice rig....

Wabbit: I have followed your runner build up thread. Cool truck.

If I can get my webhosting to behave itself I will post some shots of my truck in it's glory days.... Here ya go



And my DD



Sorry bout hugeness

BruceTS

You need to check out the heims on my rig, some have well over 50k on them, but I have had a defective one that failed after a few weeks.

deathrunner

Nah, that's my camera shy girlfriend holding a stuffed panda painted like a badger in front of her face. We were trying to recrete the animation about badgers that is commonly found on ebaumsworld.com I have to get creative at finding ways to keep her interest in the desert.

deathrunner

Undoubtedly, heims are not a miracle part, they are expendable like tie rod ends, but I believe the heim setup will be more reliable and stronger, and if you're not performing maintenance on your rig, you shouldn't be taking it on expeditions anyway.

AxleIke

ahahaha, that is even funnier then...that thing on ebaumsworld is bloody hilarious...BTW, your truck is so sweet dude. It deff looks better all black rather than white glassies on a black hood.

as for the bent horns, if it'll hold the alignment, i'd say stay with the IFS, whether you go LT or not is going to be a price issue. I say, rebuild the stock stuff for now, see if you still wanna go LT, but i trust my stock junk. My truck, when i was a little guy, was used extensively for expedition type trips...we never broke the front end, and we did some pretty remote trails that were pretty difficult, and it even made it out of the Maze District of Canyon lands (45 miles in L4) on a blown headgasket, then drove from Moab UT to Denver CO. Its a toyota and it will handle a ton...Back on topic, if you go with the 2.7, keep stock Tcase gearing, and 33 inch tires or below, you should be fine with the stock junk. Get some skids, and lock it up, and i think you'll go a lot of places. Invest two cv axles, and do the bolt mod to the front. You'll be able to change an axle in a half hour or less, and keep rolling.

I also dissagree that there are less locker options for the 7.5inch front...True, you can't do an elocker, but you can get, Detriot (both full and soft), ARB, Lockrite, all for the front. Those cover the price range pretty well, and while some are better than others for different things, you should be able to lock the front, and get the performance you want.

BajaTaco

Interesting topic, and project. First of all, I think that durability and reliability should be your main priority. Reliability is pretty much a bi-product of durability, but they are distinct attributes nonetheless. Having said that, my first choice would be to buy a newer truck (or NEW) truck with much less age and mileage on it. I know that's not what you want to hear, and I know that you have already made up your mind, but I will say it anyway. I'm NOT saying that older Toyotas cannot be successfully made into remote travel rigs. But the chances of doing that successfully and also having a very comfortable vehicle to live out of and drive for hours and hours on end are not as good as the chances when using a newer vehicle. It takes a unique combination of vehicle and owner to make it happen. Whereas, there is much more room for variations and "luck" using a newer vehicle. This all boils down to what makes you happy of course, and at the end of a long day in the seat, out in the middle of nowhere, a comfy ride and no problems makes a person very happy. I can relate to the sentimental value that you place on your truck however, because I did the same thing with a previous truck of mine. It was hard for me to give it up, but after getting "nickel & dimed" for quite some time, and then having a rebuilt engine blow up, I threw in the towel and bought a brand new Tacoma.

With a vehicle that is 20 years old, you have to consider that EVERYTHING is old. Not just the IFS and the engine. Every moving part, and every pliable part has age on it. Body mounts, hinges, seals, vaccum tubes, bushings, bearings, plastic clips, vinyl finishes, etc. etc. Plastic and vinyl will crack, rubber will rot, tubing will leak, steel will rust through, foam will break down, UV damage, etc. It's all of the little things that start to add up. Add to that the fact that new vehicles tend to be just much more refined and comfortable than those of the past. Some say it doesn't matter (and that's Ok) but I can almost guarantee if you did a multi-week trip in Mexico with mostly dirt driving in an FJ-40 or an 85 Toyota pickup and then went back and did the same trip in an '06 Tacoma or 4Runner, you would be spanking yourself. at least most people would.

Mexico. I have yet to explore the southern half of Mexico, but what I have seen in Northern Mexico and Baja has shown me that highly technical trails are the exception, not the rule. Unless the trail has been made to get to something that just can't be reached by any easy means (perhaps a spanish mission ruin, or a mine), then the trail is not more difficult than what a stock-ish full-size 4x4 truck can handle, and MANY are do-able in 2wd. Almost all of the roads you will come across in Mexico are made by, and driven by, common people in common vehicles, for a common purpose. Access to mining locations, and the occasional "shortcut" through the mountains do exist though. Most remote traveling can be done in a stock 4wd. The biggest benefit to having a modified 4wd is this; Road damage and sand/mud. Occasionally, a road will become damaged due to erosion or storm. The popularity/importance of the road will dictate how soon it is repaired (if at all). And getting to the beach or through a particularly wet area of forest (or in the rainy season) will dictate the advantage of having extra means of traction (good tires/lockers).

To get back to your question though, of the three choices, I would probably stick with the stock IFS. I think it will be more reliable than the LT, and more comfortable for long-distances than the SAS.

Flygtenstein

Solid axle-
Pro's:
1. Strong
2. Simple
3. Less pieces

Long travel-
Pro's:
1. Increased wheel travel
2. Chance for better steering

Stock Rebuild-
1. It is already there

LT and stock still has CV's and a 7.5" diff. Both of those are weaker than the solid axle counterpart. I am sorry you did not see the good info in the last thread.

If your primary goals are jumping, long travel wins hands down.

If you are only concerned with travel, then it says to me you may be crawling it. Stock IFS with lockers and crawlers can crawl pretty well. If you can weld, cost are the same but you get stronger components.

Done right, all of these will drive perfect, ride well and if nothing else will be markedly better than what you have now.