Good point. I have my timing bumped to 16 degrees on my 3 vze and could probably go more. So I would feel comfortable with this setup to help with pinging and cooler temperatures even without the computer input.... interesting thought about putting the method injection in the air box so AFM could detect it. However I would be worried about the AFM freezing in the winters here

 

From what I've learned about our truck's ECU, it has to be a long-term change for the ECU to compensate and get higher MPG's. TA is right about the ECU having a hard time adapting, for our trucks any fuel change takes several cycles (turn on truck, warm engine, turn off) to take full effect. If you don't run meth for one or two of the cycles it might not change anything at all. Why do I know this? The O2 sensor and other key sensors on the 3VZ-E work on a 2 trip system. The first time a change happens it stores the information and waits until a second time (after powering down) to take effect. That's why code 25s and 26s are so hard to diagnose... trust me on that one...

The options then I guess for us would to run a throttle switch on the TB to turn on under any significant load with a small nozzle. That way there's consistent injection and the ECU should compensate. I would also add an on/off killswitch (in case you don't want it on when wheeling) and possibly a forced on/off switch that bypasses the throttle switch to have it on all the time at cruising speeds.

The other option would be to run a larger nozzle and to only be on during WOT conditions. This is where the unknown is, might work great, might suck and bog down the engine. Our ECU's may not be able to adjust on the fly.

I suppose you could buy two nozzles (i.e. a 2 gpm and a 5 gpm) and just adjust the throttle switch and experiment to see what scenario works best.

And don't run the injection before the AFM, that's asking for a host of issues. There's a reason why your air intake should not be sucking up water! If you want it to detect lower air temps do the ECT mod using a potentiometer except tap the IAT sensor wire and tell it that the air is cooler instead of coolant. Or both. That's what I'm thinking... but that's a whole lot of wiring I'd need to do!

 

My last 2 trips to high elevations I've blow the pressure tubing between the pump and intake. Has anyone else had that problem? It has happened while doing trails in 4 wheel low. I'm thinking the pressure builds while climbing but doesn't get relieved because there is no injection going slow.

 

That should not even remotely be a problem. The lines you should be using are rated to over 300psi and should not burst until well over 450psi.

The highest pressure meth injection pumps get up to even with a clogged fitting is around ~250psi before the pressure switches kick in.

My guess is either old/worn lines or most likely the wrong kind of lines. The lines will harden over time due to the heat in the engine bay and should be replaced on a yearly basis IMO. They cost all of like $5, worth the money.

 

You ruptured the line? Or the line blew off the fitting?

Sent from my iPhone using YotaTech

 

Ruptured line, twice now, but in different places. Maybe my lines are getting too old. Original Aquamist lines are about 8 years old now.

After I fix this section all the original lines will be gone.

 

Yeah you also have no idea what lines they were using way back then. They have learned a lot in that time. I would replace all the lines and see what happens. Should not have anymore issues.

I run lines like this (just thicker walled) up to 1500psi on paintball guns and never had a blowout. I do replace them on a regular basis though. For the price it just makes sense to me.

 

Thanks for the write up TA, have my water injection setup on my turbo 22re, well worth the 105 bucks I spent on the parts. I used one of the quick opening check valves McMaster-Carr sells. http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-check-valves/=ot5694

 

Now I'm a bit confused... after reading pages 8 and 9 I figured this would be pretty useless on my obd1 22RE. Now Gennro is saying it worked great?

Gennro, I realize you have a turbo and mine is NA but am I missing something? Did your ecu take some time to get everything down or do you have other mods?

 

What about the last pages made you think it would not work? Water/Meth injection will work with any engine. The only question is how well.

Boosted engines will get the most out of it by a long shot.

You could put it on an NA 22re but the gains would be nothing like the above users 22ret.

Just like with my truck. When boosted it gained me ~20-40hp+ but NA I got maybe ~8-10hp.

 

I never said I thought it wouldn't work, it just seems like it's not as worthwhile on the old 22re. I think we're in agreement here: looks like I'd see the most from a more modern engine w/ some boost, gains on mine would be on the minimal side.

It would be cool to see if some one has done this to the 22 though, it sounds really interesting.

 

Ah ok, yeah the 22re won't gain much besides steam cleaning in NA form. Minor gain in power but not enough to justify the cost IMO.

 

Yeah forgot to mention I am running a standalone engine management system and a GT2871R turbo at about 11psi. My setup is far from stock.

 

Think of methanol injection as a percentage boost.

If a 200 HP 3.4L (not sure of exact numbers) that is naturally aspirated gets roughly 10 HP, that's a 5% increase. On the 3VZE with 150 HP, that translates to 7.5 HP. For the 22RE with 110 HP that means 5.5 HP.

If it is boosted then it's a whole different story.

My engine isn't stock either, I'm sure it would give me more than a 5% increase but it's definitely not boosted. I think I'm going to do it on a 3VZE, I finally heard back from the one guy on here that's done it and just saving up some money now (need new water pump first).

 

While those numbers may be close it is by pure fluke.

In reality the power gained will vary widely depending on the setup. For example a high compression FRS engine will make significant gains, upwards of 20-30hp NA.

A lower compression/less sophisticated EFI engine on the other hand may only gain a few hp.

Depends on how close to the knock threshold the engine is before you add it. And how well it responds to IAT changes.

 

I will be interested in your result.

 

I've got a question. I put on the supercharger earlier this year and elected to get the devil's own progressive kit (I know it's not your favorite, but what's done is done). I started with the 7gph nozzle and as soon as spray would start it would immediately bog down pretty badly. I moved to a 3gph nozzle and still just bogs. I have a higher mileage motor so I'm still running the stock pulley, and I'm at about 4100ft elevation. It seemed like I was just flooding the cylinder, but that shouldn't be happening, since I've never heard of this issue before. I have a friend at turbo lab and he suggested that I re-gap my plugs, since he said there's no way I can put in that much wind and water/meth and hope the spark will stay hot. I'm spraying -20* washer fluid at the moment, which has definitely kept the heat down and I've never heard it ping.

As soon as I re-gapped to .030 (at his suggestion) it pulled way better and didn't bog down so I think that solved the issue. What I ran into though was a different problem. It would pull ok until it hit about 4400RPM, then it would feel like a kick in the pants and pull much harder. I spoke to him again about that and he suggested that I go to .035 gap since I may not be getting a full burn on the smaller gap until the higher RPM's. That's what I'm currently running. Now it feels like the worst of both worlds, where it bogs a little bit, and never really pulls until I hit about 4400RPM's. I've never seen a dyno chart for these motors with a spike at 4400RPM, but rather it should be a strong pull all the way through before it falls off. I don't need it to be a sports car, but I want to get the best power I can safely get, and it feels like I'm falling short of that now. I'll probably invest in a new set of wires, but what other suggestions do you have to get a good power curve?

Thanks for all the great info - this thread is important to all the SC guys (even though it started as a NA thread)

 

Well you should not be bogging at all with those size nozzles. So something is up for sure. You also should not need to gap the plugs at all.

Right now I am running a 7gph nozzle on my currently NA 5vz also with washer fluid. No bogging at all and improved performance. Also running stock gapped plugs (actually wider then stock as I am sure they have worn down some.

When I was supercharged I was running a 2.0 pulley, 14gph of pure methanol (tried pure water as well but got much better performance from the meth) also on stock gap plugs (and once again wider) with no bogging and better performance.

I did try gapping the plugs down some with the above setup and while it might have made a slight difference I was also running a single electrode plug at the time so it was not a fair comparison.

In a nut shell, something is up with your truck.

Do you have a wideband? You really need to see what the AFR's are doing to get an idea whats going on.

It sounds like you are running lean due to closed loop and then it switches to open loop around 4400rpm and richens it up as much as possible (still lean most likely) and you feel the improved power.

Without a wideband it is really impossible to know. Do you have fuel mods?

I would start out by getting some brand new plugs and installing them as is. You can go with the basic NGK coppers to save some money while testing like I did if you want. Don't go more then 1 step colder if using water injection on our motors in my experience.

Then get yourself a wideband and see whats really going on. If you don't have fuel mods you can pretty much bet you are running lean. My truck was stupid lean without fuel mods even on the stock pulley.

An OBDII scanner would also be a really good idea. I like the bluetooth ones that work with your phone.

 

Ok - That's great info. I've got a bluetooth OBDII scanner on the way - should be here on Thursday. I'll pick up some plugs, but I've got a question about that.

Do I want to go even one stage cooler with water/meth injection? I think guys jump right into 2 stage cooler plugs because it sounds cool, but don't they end up fouling if you're not running the higher temps that they're made for? If I plan on running a 2.2 pulley MAX (after I've had it for a year or so), will I ever need any cooler plugs? I do need to pick up a 170* thermostat, but pinging is well under control at this point just by putting on the water/meth injection. It sounds like I'm talking myself into getting factory denso/NGK plugs, but if I should go one step cooler I'll shop them out.

As far as running lean goes, I'll admit I'm a little confused. Lean without any add-ons generally leads to ping. Maybe that's a grossly oversimplified assumption, but that's kind of where I am thinking about it. I'm at a higher elevation, with less oxygen in the air, so it's less easy to be lean here than down at sea level. Based on your earlier statement, do you suppose that I'm running lean all the time, or is the water/meth injection system causing it to run lean? I got very little ping once the ECU was acclimated to the supercharger, unless I got it too hot and it would ping like crazy until it cooled again. I'm planning on picking up a wideband afr gauge, like this one: because I agree that's a necessity at this point. I guess the issue there is what do I do about a lean mixture once I find it? One of the main reasons I picked up a water/meth kit was so that I wouldn't absolutely need fuel mods like a 7th injector kit with running lower boost (6-8psi). I don't mind picking up a the Walbro 190 or even bigger injectors, but I'd like the ECU to manage the fuel if at all possible. I guess the question is what are some good options for tuning out the lean mixture once I find that is actually the problem?

I suppose time will tell when I stick in new plugs. Maybe I fouled them when it was running hot before I put on the meth injection kit, and they stopped making good spark with the introduction of the washer solution. I agree that will be the first step, and then knowing what the engine is doing (OBDII and wideband AFR gauge) will be super helpful as well to make the next important performance and longevity decisions.

What is your opinion on dropping in bigger injectors and a larger fuel pump without a piggyback controller? Can the factory ECU trim it properly over time, or is it just a timebomb?

Thanks for the info!

 

I ran stock heat range plugs with my truck even on the 2.0 pulley but I was running 14gph of meth. You should be fine with the 7gph. I do like using the cheap coppers for testing though so I don't foul out some pricy plugs. Ten swap over once it is running good.

Don't mess with the thermostat either, I am in Texas and never had an issue with overheating, you sure won't. Too cold of coolant temps are as bad as too high in many ways.

You can EASILY run lean without getting knock. The 5vz ECU is very good at controlling knock, to the point that if you do actually get some you know you are REALLY pushing things past what they should be.

The higher elevation is the only reason you might not be running lean but still highly possible you are. The wideband will tell you much more. In my experience being too lean or too rich is about all that will throw the stock ECU for the kind of loop you seem to be having.

Far as fuel mods, since you have the meth kit you could simply put 100% meth in it and size the nozzle correctly and use it for the extra fuel like I did. Worked great, WAY better then the 7th injector performance wise once I got it dialed in.

Don't mess with the larger injectors on the stock ECU. Either go 7th injector or some other form of piggyback to control the injectors (the AEM FIC works great if you get the signals to read properly).

I really prefer the meth kit to handle the extra fuel but this needs pure methanol to work and a fair amount of it.